Moving from Systems Engineer to Cloud Engineer/DevOps?

tycoonbob

Hi everyone. I've worked in IT for about 6 years now, and mainly work as a Systems Engineer with Microsoft, VMware, and Citrix technologies, while also incorporating knowledge and practical use from things like networking, storage, and of course hardware. I've become interested in becoming a Cloud Engineer (aka working in DevOps - DevOps is not a job title, but a mindset) and am looking to make the transition as best as possible while not decreasing my pay or cost of living.

I've got some decent experience working with HTML/CSS/PHP and am wanting to learn more scripting with Python, but would prefer to save that for a later date. I also have a bit of experience with Red Hat/CentOS, and also Splunk (which I've spent the past few months implementing where I work). My idea was to look at what tools Cloud Engineers use, and start building certifications around those. Currently, I have 3 MCSE's (the new ones), 3 MCSA's, 2 MCITP's, many MCP's, 2 CCAs, and the basic CompTIA certs (A+/S+/N+, circa-2009). I'm trying to build a study/certification plan, and looking for some advice. Here is what I have on my radar:
RHCSA (Red Hat Certified Systems Administrator)
PCP (Puppet Certified Professional)
AWS CSA - Associate (Amazon Web Services Certified Solutions Architect - Associate)
Splunk Certified Administrator

I'm thinking these are the main skills I need to focus on right now, and getting certified with them will get me the experience I need to get started in Cloud Engineering. Of course my RHCSA would expand onward to RHCVA and RHCE, AWS CSA - Associate would likely expand onward to AWS CSA - Professional and AWS Certified SysOps Admin - Associate. For Splunk, I am only one class from the SCA, and one additional class to be a Splunk Certified Architect.

Anyone have thoughts on this? Are there any other certifications or technologies I should put on my radar?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

xenodamus

I don't have any advice, but am interested to hear the responses from those who are already in this arena. I'm heavy in virtualization now, getting deeper in Linux as time passes, and have wondered if this might be a path I want to pursue as well.

NightShade03

Here are some quick initial thoughts:

The "cloud" is a huge space. You can approach it from the software engineer / developer side where you are most provisioning tools/vm for your own use as you build an application. There is the perspective of the engineer who will ensure uptime, scalability, etc. There is the architect who designs cloud solutions from the ground up including security.

There are a ton of different skills that go into this; from sciprting/programming, to virtualization, to understanding how to re-architect applications for the cloud. It certainly will require a different set of skills and way of thinking. Things like Puppet and Chef will offer you skills with automation and orchestration, which are certainly helpful in the cloud (because it's all about scalability).

I would drop the Splunk cert as it isn't unique for the cloud. Also the Puppet cert can be helpful, but working with the cloud requires a diverse skill set and you'll probably want to know Puppet and Chef (or SaltStack or Ansible). Being able to use multiple tools and architect full solutions is the ultimate goal (in my opinion). So regardless of your course, just make sure you can achieve the same solution multiple ways.

BTW - My day job is cloud architect so if you have any specific questions just fire away....always happy to help

UnixGuy

Interesting topic and this is something I'm interested in as well. I think it's a smart idea to skill up because traditional system administration/engineering is kind of disappearing or to be more accurate it's changing rapidly.

Learning new tools is the first step that I personally took. I started with Puppet. I'm not sure what's next for me, but I don't want to stagnate anyway.

For OP, to get experience as fast as possible, join a service provider. Your existing skills will be an asset and you will learn as you go.

As far as certifications go, RHCSA is highly recommend and you will be contacted for jobs based on having this certification for sure.

I would say Puppet/AWS are nice to have, but instead of going through those exams/certs, you can just setup a small VMs/lab and have some initial experience. Mention your lab experience/interest in your CV and this will get your foot in the door for a job where you can have an actual production experience. IMHO, certification aren't really necessary.

tycoonbob

NightShade03 wrote: »

Here are some quick initial thoughts:

The "cloud" is a huge space. You can approach it from the software engineer / developer side where you are most provisioning tools/vm for your own use as you build an application. There is the perspective of the engineer who will ensure uptime, scalability, etc. There is the architect who designs cloud solutions from the ground up including security.

There are a ton of different skills that go into this; from sciprting/programming, to virtualization, to understanding how to re-architect applications for the cloud. It certainly will require a different set of skills and way of thinking. Things like Puppet and Chef will offer you skills with automation and orchestration, which are certainly helpful in the cloud (because it's all about scalability).

I would drop the Splunk cert as it isn't unique for the cloud. Also the Puppet cert can be helpful, but working with the cloud requires a diverse skill set and you'll probably want to know Puppet and Chef (or SaltStack or Ansible). Being able to use multiple tools and architect full solutions is the ultimate goal (in my opinion). So regardless of your course, just make sure you can achieve the same solution multiple ways.

BTW - My day job is cloud architect so if you have any specific questions just fire away....always happy to help

Thanks for your reply. I'm aware there are different paths within "Cloud Engineer", just as there are in any IT specialization. I haven't quite picked the exact path that fits me, but I can say that I will not be skipping the Splunk certification. To be certified in Splunk you have to complete training with Splunk (like 5 classes for the Admin cert), and I already have 4 completed via my current employer. That's about $4,500 in training with only a 6-hour $500 class left, before I can test for the Admin cert. Splunk is a super powerful tool that many companies are starting to use and it's definitely something I can specialize in with minimal effort (since I'm already this far in).

I do believe RHCSA is my next certification, because I know it will benefit me the most. To give some more background on myself, I actually have my MCSA: Private Cloud, which garners me cloud experience with the Microsoft stack. With that, I'm also certified in Microsoft's Configuration Management software (SCCM) in both the 2007 and 2012 versions. Ergo, I have cloud and CM experience, just with the Microsoft stack and am looking to transition over to more AWS/OpenStack kinda work, and to Linux instead of Microsoft. So I have the understanding of processes, etc, just not with the specific technologies. I have a good bit of experience with Microsoft's System Center Orchestration, which is their automation platform. I also have experience with Ansible (which is what I use to manage the Splunk environment in my current job), but Puppet (and Chef) seem much more well-known, and used. Puppet has a certification track, so I figured that would be a resume plus as well.

It's true, though, that Splunk fits more in the DevOps side and not general "cloud".

UnixGuy wrote: »

Interesting topic and this is something I'm interested in as well. I think it's a smart idea to skill up because traditional system administration/engineering is kind of disappearing or to be more accurate it's changing rapidly.

Learning new tools is the first step that I personally took. I started with Puppet. I'm not sure what's next for me, but I don't want to stagnate anyway.

For OP, to get experience as fast as possible, join a service provider. Your existing skills will be an asset and you will learn as you go.

As far as certifications go, RHCSA is highly recommend and you will be contacted for jobs based on having this certification for sure.

I would say Puppet/AWS are nice to have, but instead of going through those exams/certs, you can just setup a small VMs/lab and have some initial experience. Mention your lab experience/interest in your CV and this will get your foot in the door for a job where you can have an actual production experience. IMHO, certification aren't really necessary.

Joining a service provider is not possible at this time for me due to factors outside of my career, which is why I'm looking to make a direct change by building lab experience through self-study. Since I won't have professional experience with these tools since I don't work with them daily, I am focusing on the certifications to show understanding of the technologies/products. The AWS certificate in particular should be easy for me to get, with minimal time. I have an AWS account and some (minimal) experience, and work provides me a subscription to CBT Nuggets. CBT Nuggets has two video series (about 25 hours worth of content) which would garner the knowledge and provide guidance through labbing for me to pass the certification. The cost of the certification is negligible to me as well, since a new career with the possibility of a higher salary will easily offset that cost.

Another reason I'm pro-certifications is that I do not have a college degree, and I intentionally will probably never get one. I like to feel that I'm the exception and that I can do whatever I want without a degree, when most people say a college degree is necessary in life...which is totally ridiculous in my opinion.

But yeah, I figure with the RHCSA (and maybe I can get the RHCE and even the RHCVA within a month or so after the RHCSA) I could likely land some interviews/possible jobs as a Linux cloud engineer, as a way in.


To provide more background as to why I can move to a service provider, I currently live in the Louisville, KY area and plan to move home in the very near future. Home for me is in eastern KY, like the hills of eastern KY where there is very limited IT work. Basically, I have to find a job that proves to be stable and allows for telecommuting before I can move, and it seems DevOps oriented jobs (Web Dev, Cloud, etc) are the most likely candidates for finding telecommute work, without moving completely to development which I don't think I'd like. I like scripting, but don't care for coding.
I know I could quickly settle into a cloud engineering job, but I just don't have the experience on my resume (or keywords) that will cause recruiters/hiring managers to give me a second look. Keywords like "RHCSA", "Splunk", "Puppet", "AWS", etc will cause a lot of automated hits from web based hiring systems (i.e. LinkedIn, Dice, CareerBuilder) for the type of jobs I'm interested in.

linuxlover

UnixGuy wrote: »

but instead of going through those exams/certs, you can just setup a small VMs/lab and have some initial experience. Mention your lab experience/interest in your CV and this will get your foot in the door for a job where you can have an actual production experience. IMHO, certification aren't really necessary.

+1 That's what got me a job as I was told.

chanakyajupudi

Hey. I have a question for the cloud architect in the house. I was doing system administration for a couple of years. and now have been given an opportunity for a DevOps role including AWS and puppet as the main skills.

My question now is should I choose to work at an up coming start up as an entry level or at a Multinational as an intermediate. Both pay the same.

I have skills that are required. I am willing to start fresh and take a pay that is enough for me to survive.

Cheers !

tycoonbob

Just an update on the Splunk certification, I'm aiming for the Splunk Certified Admin certification very soon (Splunk | Education Programs), which requires 5 classes. The last class I need (Creating Splunk Knowledge Objects) I just got manager approval to take. Then I can take two online test, and if I pass I will have my cert (as well as another lower cert, Splunk Certified Knowledge Manager).

After this, I will be moving very fast for my RHCSA certification. From there, I don't know what I should do next...maybe AWS cert?

UnixGuy

@Chanakya:

what are the pros of starting as an entry level when you have a chance to start as an intermediate? Seeing your certification, I don't think you are an entry level professional!

chanakyajupudi

I have moved from India to New Zealand and have done a Graduate Diploma. The problem with me getting hired as an experienced hire is that I have no IT experience in New Zealand and because I worked in India which is not an equal job market I will be considered as an entry level.

The certifications and experience ensure my selection over a local here. I am definitely enraged. But I need to make a career here ! My growth is fast tracked due to my experience and pay as well.

UnixGuy

Don't think like that. Your experience is valid and it depends on how employers see it (I moved to Australia too but not from India). Keep looking. If all you can find is entry then fine, but I think you can find better opportunities (assuming you have the proper work permission). Red Hat will be particularly interested in your Open Stack experience.

Otherwise do what you gotta do.

gkca

What about the "dev" part of DevOps? I assume that a cloud engineer needs to have a good background in scripting and programming such as bash / perl /python / ruby and database technologies as well? And versioning systems such as SVN and Git?

Essendon

chanakyajupudi wrote: »

I have moved from India to New Zealand and have done a Graduate Diploma. The problem with me getting hired as an experienced hire is that I have no IT experience in New Zealand and because I worked in India which is not an equal job market I will be considered as an entry level.

The certifications and experience ensure my selection over a local here. I am definitely enraged. But I need to make a career here ! My growth is fast tracked due to my experience and pay as well.

Damn mate, with those certs and some experience to back 'em up, you'd make a killing. You sure your resume's right? I mean the formats in India could possibly be different than what people are used to seeing in Kiwiland. A colleague of mind moved here from Iran, and got a job alongside me in under 3 months. And he had like 1 cert, an old expired MCP. You got full work rights? That should be the only issue holding you back (and perhaps the resume). Good luck though!

UnixGuy

gkca wrote: »

What about the "dev" part of DevOps? I assume that a cloud engineer needs to have a good background in scripting and programming such as bash / perl /python / ruby and database technologies as well? And versioning systems such as SVN and Git?

I'm not really sure about this. I've seen job ads requiring more Dev knowledge while others require more Sysadmin knowledge. I imagine it's difficult to people who know strong experience in both Dev & Ops.

I'd like to know more from those who are already doing DevOps/Cloud work? and is it financially rewarding anyway?

chanakyajupudi

I have tried making people change my resume or review it to make it Kiwiland appropriate. It has not changed my pay or work opportunities.

I have seen people not get a job at all so I am trying to take what I have now and maybe make it bigger in a year or two as I need an employer to give me a work visa too.

Work rights is one of the major reasons that I have to compromise on pay for now !

lsud00d

Ahh DevOps...I'm so tempted to drop all current studies (Server 2012 MCSE/VCP/CCNA) and immerse myself in ruby, python, AWS, Puppet, and Chef. I visited a best friend in San Francisco recently and he's heading up a team of developers out there and said they could really use a DevOps guy to handle the infrastructure side of thing. All of it is so alluring (especially the pay and moving out to California!) but it's out of my comfort zone and I only have marginal interaction with the required skillset. Also...there's not much demand for those positions in my local market, whereas there is plenty for everything else IT.

Le sigh.

Essendon

@chanakya - stay focused, stay sharp and surely you'll land something nice and juicy. Perhaps post your sanitized resume up here for a critique?

UnixGuy

@chanakya: Your lack of work permit is what's causing - not your experience. Good luck!

UnixGuy

@lsud00d: Thing is, I see those DevOps roles advertised, asking for SOOO much (anything from programming languages to all kinds of platforms) yet the pay isn't so so. Makes me wonder if it's worth the effort really! Something like Presales or Storage administration (for example) seems to pay better!

chanakyajupudi

Essendon - I put my resume in another thread so that this thread does not get hijacked for me !

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/101511-resume-critique-kiwiland.html#post859355

tycoonbob

gkca wrote: »

What about the "dev" part of DevOps? I assume that a cloud engineer needs to have a good background in scripting and programming such as bash / perl /python / ruby and database technologies as well? And versioning systems such as SVN and Git?

Yeah, this is generally what is holding me back from any role like this. It seems that most job listings are looking for someone who was a Developer for 10 years, then went to learn Operations, and I don't think that happens too often.

On another note, I do have experience with Git, as well as some basic stuff with WebDev (HTML/CSS/PHP, need to learn some JS), but my scripting skills are all with PowerShell and Windows batch. I'm pretty decent at the CLI with RHEL/CentOS, so I'm hoping that once I can get my RHCSA I'll pick up enough skills to comfortably know scripting with bash/sh. Learning some basics with Python (mainly so I can script with Python, and at least read the code of some of my favorite projects -- Pelican, Splunk, Ansible, etc, which are written in Python), enough so that I can script with it. But I will not be some serious developer. Isn't DevOps supposed to bridge the gap of Developers and Operations? Not be a full Developer and a full Operations person?

chanakyajupudi wrote: »

Essendon - I put my resume in another thread so that this thread does not get hijacked for me !

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/101511-resume-critique-kiwiland.html#post859355

Good luck getting your resume in check. You have a good list of certifications that I'm sure is backed by experience, so finding a good job should be obtainable.

tycoonbob

Registered for my 1Y0-A20 yesterday, and passed it a few hours ago today (Citrix CCA for XenApp 6.5). Also got registered for my last Splunk class, at the expense of my current employer, so well on my way to 2 Splunk certifications in the next 4-6 weeks.

I guess my immediate focus is on the RHCSA certification. For that, I am currently studying with the VTC video series for the RHCSA, and plan to order Michael Jang's RHCSA book for the labs, and additional reading. After I get this RHCSA, I feel like I may be able to get a start in working with Linux in the Cloud!

NightShade03

So half of the problem with DevOps is that organizations don't understand what it is. The other half of the problem is that is isn't *just* a technical role.

When you see companies and job postings for a DevOps role with a thousand requirements, ten programming languages, etc...run. DevOps is a mind set and a culture, not a tool. Those wanting all the requirements in a DevOps role clearly don't understand what DevOps is or how it will help their company. Anyone filling a role like that in an organization with tons of requirements isn't going to be happy or make a change.

Now that being said, DevOps roles should have a VERY diverse background. You'll need to know how to code and/or script, networking, system administration (both windows and linux), and security. You don't have to be a pro at all of these things, but you should have a solid background in some of them and a high level understanding of how the rest work (or where to turn when you need help).

Flipping the equation for a moment, the other challenge is that these types of roles are about bringing business and operations together. In some organizations (particularly large ones) you have a better chance of winning the lottery then you do of changing the mindset of how these organizations do work. Trying to bring business, operations, security, compliance, etc together to be agile and make the business better at what they do is a very very difficult task which is why the DevOps role requires such diversity and someone that can think outside the box. If you look at traditional "technical" folks...you'd be hard pressed to find many that can fill a role like this. The reason these roles don't pay well is because the business doesn't understand the benefit of these roles just yet. Look at Data Science. It's been around for 10+ years...we've just been calling them statisticians. Someone coined the termed Big Data, dropped a product, and now it's off to the races with DS roles command $150k+ salaries. DevOps will get there, but we aren't there yet. As cloud adoption picks up and the need for businesses to be able to scale will really drive these roles.

As a final note to my long winded post You'll start to see a shift in startups vs big orgs in the next 5 years. Startups are more nimble and can scale/adjust to market demands on the fly which is why you hear these stories of new companies with multi-million dollar revenues their first 3 years in business. Since big(ger) orgs can't change how they work and keep up they will use their hordes of cash to snatch these types of companies and talent up, but will be sadden to find that the innovation and scalability doesn't transfer to their org because they won't change their mindset. The talent that was acquired quits and joins a new startup to repeat the the cycle. Disruption in industries is both a good thing and frightening to many who feel that they will be shoved out.

For anyone that hasn't read it yet, The Phoenix Project by Gene Kim is an outstanding book about DevOps as told through a story line.

UnixGuy

^^ Brilliant answer NightShade!! Guess I'll try to follow where the money's at!

chanakyajupudi

So. I have finally decided. I have joined a Technology Start up as a DevOps Engineer. Having said that I know I have to learn a lot but who has not at a new job.

Thank you NightShade and UnixGuy for the advice.

Essendon for his advice on the resume !

Be ready to see a lot more posts begging for help on the cloud front and the automation front !

cyberguypr

Congrats!

chanakyajupudi

Thanks !

lsud00d

Chanakyajupudi, any updates on how this is going? I might have been bitten by the DevOps bug again...just ordered a Ruby book and going to start labbing puppet/chef/saltstack...also get back to python!

bridgestone

Very interesting thread. I know that in London, DevOps jobs are all over the place and paying very, very well (have a look on the likes of jobserve or cwjobs) but still I see DevOps has not penetrated into all other major cities yet, at least in the job listings. I think it could well be that newer companies are going straight into it but more established companies have pencilled it in for the future - a bit like delaying the move from XP to Windows 7 - they know they have to do it at some point but they don't need to do it right now.

On that note, I have also heard of DevOps being a "mindset" but it begs the question: if the traditional company does not yet have a DevOps department or function, when will it need to create one?

Right now I'm your traditional Windows sysadmin (3rd line/infrastructure) but I think DevOps is the ideal position to transition into. I see a lot of jobs still wanting the traditional background.

On that note I'm going to look into RHCSA next. Then learn Python. Then AWS.

I wonder though, having just started my MCPs, is it worth getting the MCSE? Is it even worth me getting my MCSA? Bear in mind I already have a few years solid experience with 2003 R2/2008 R2/2012. I suppose it can't hurt but the opportunity cost is delaying my start with RHCSA and Python because I figure that if I do go for my MCSA then I should finish what I've already started......?

bridgestone

To add: I've just done a quick survey of skills looked for in DevOps engineers, here's what I have:

Operating Systems:

RHEL, CentOS primarily.
Ubuntu next


Configuration Management/Automated Deployment:
Puppet primarily
Chef second
Salt third


Monitoring
Nagios primarily
Cacti


Scripting Languages

Python, Ruby primarily
Perl, php, java also mentioned


Source control/versioning

GIT primarily


Cloud Technologies

AWS primarily
Azure, Rackspace secondary


Virtualization technologies

VMWare, Vagrant primarily
Virtualbox, Xenserver also get a mention


DB platforms

a big mixture of mysql, postgres, mongo, redis


Apache tomcat is obviously an oft-mentioned skill. Same for nginx which I believe is some kind of proxy tech. Windows got an occasional mention and no more than that.



DevOps seems to source most people from Development but also from sysadmin. Focus is great but I think a good backup plan of simply expanding one's general sysadmin skills is in order i.e. seems to make sense to me to concentrate in this order:


(1) Red Hat (RHCSA initially)
(2) Python or Ruby (I choose Python)
(3) Then AWS (unfortunately all the certs require professional AWS experience. Do AWS Essentials then System Operations on AWS. This will line you up eventually for Certified SysOps Administrator - see the paths here) and Puppet, not sure which is more important to do before the other.


I hope the above is useful.

bridgestone wrote: »

Very interesting thread. I know that in London, DevOps jobs are all over the place and paying very, very well (have a look on the likes of jobserve or cwjobs) but still I see DevOps has not penetrated into all other major cities yet, at least in the job listings. I think it could well be that newer companies are going straight into it but more established companies have pencilled it in for the future - a bit like delaying the move from XP to Windows 7 - they know they have to do it at some point but they don't need to do it right now.

On that note, I have also heard of DevOps being a "mindset" but it begs the question: if the traditional company does not yet have a DevOps department or function, when will it need to create one?

Right now I'm your traditional Windows sysadmin (3rd line/infrastructure) but I think DevOps is the ideal position to transition into. I see a lot of jobs still wanting the traditional background.

On that note I'm going to look into RHCSA next. Then learn Python. Then AWS.

I wonder though, having just started my MCPs, is it worth getting the MCSE? Is it even worth me getting my MCSA? Bear in mind I already have a few years solid experience with 2003 R2/2008 R2/2012. I suppose it can't hurt but the opportunity cost is delaying my start with RHCSA and Python because I figure that if I do go for my MCSA then I should finish what I've already started......?

Sina80

I recommend the exam "Oracle Certified Professional, MySQL 5.6 Database Administrator" for every DevOp.