CCIE Dead?

bryguybryguy Posts: 190Member
Came across an interesting arcile on SDN. Thoughts?

Network pros need SDN training, not CCIE status
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Comments

  • networker050184networker050184 Posts: 11,962Mod Mod
    Going to be quite a while before the CCIE becomes useless. Maybe if you are just now getting into school the CCIE may not be your 5+ year plan, but for professionals already working in the field there really isn't a better short term plan certification wise. Obviously everyone should try to stay on top of the new trends in the industry though.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
  • darkerzdarkerz Posts: 431Member
    I work in an environment that is implementing SDN in all sorts of strange ways, mostly due to the economies of scale. Packet Pushers has it sort of right, so far.

    ...

    When you have 100's of thousands of devices spanning a Fortune 50, you innovate. You can only hire so many operators before they are bogged down my MOP's, CAB meetings, standard documentation, middle managers, directors, the list goes on and on.

    I've run into so many problems and catastrophic service-ending failures (which I will not spell out or publicize icon_wink.gif) because of these new deployments, protocols, boxes & programs going amiss. Experts are needed to explain and re-mediate complex issues. Having the CCIE is not about being a Cisco'4 Life person, it's understanding all of the theory, configuration, troubleshooting and practical application (ok, practical enough icon_lol.gif) to survive in a R&S environment.

    The SDN "apocalypse" is here - and no software engineer is going to be jumping in, suddenly gaining 7+ years of Network experience and theory work, replacing everyone with a Python script and some fancy new boxes.

    So,

    Get your CCIE, but it's not unheard of to pursue Virtualization, Scripting and Security disciplines on the side.

    The biggest danger of SDN in all of it's shapes and sizes is not the eradication of Network professionals, it's the break petal on exploding operational staff & expenses and the deflation of a ridiculously lucrative market "for hire" cycle we've all enjoyed. Look up Network Engineer on indeed.com, it's absolutely insane and exists simply because it's such a painfully manual thing to Operate, Design and Troubleshoot a network.
    :twisted:
  • joelsfoodjoelsfood Posts: 1,025Member
    I sure hope CCIE sticks around even with SDN, because the programmers I know shouldn't be touching the network. :)

    As has been mentioned, the theory, the basics, etc, all still have to be there or sdn does us no good.
  • seittitseittit Posts: 11Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Colin McNamara is a sensationalist attention whore; please take his input lightly. Most network professionals scoff at his 'expert advice'
  • silver145silver145 Posts: 265Member
    I work for BT and i am still yet to see any area use SDN/NFV as of yet........
  • HeeroHeero Posts: 486Member
    joelsfood wrote: »
    I sure hope CCIE sticks around even with SDN, because the programmers I know shouldn't be touching the network. :)

    As has been mentioned, the theory, the basics, etc, all still have to be there or sdn does us no good.

    I can second that. Most of the programmers I know hardly know how to handle IPs and TCP ports in their applications. I can't even imagine them programming a device that controls the network.....
  • Dieg0MDieg0M Posts: 861Member
    What do you think makes those SDN overlay run? IS-IS, LISP, VXLAN's and mBGP. Good luck troubleshooting something if you don't know how it works.
    Follow my CCDE journey at www.routingnull0.com
  • RouteMyPacketRouteMyPacket Posts: 1,104Member
    lol..let me print that out real quick..I know exactly what that article is good for and it's not reading, I have to do a #2 and cleanup after..this article should work perfectly for that.

    Like everything else, it seems they promote the picking of low hanging fruit. Why strive to be an expert? That's useless..just take "low-level classes".

    "McNamara, who is part of the Silicon Valley SDN research vanguard, believes CCIE status is already worthless -- he doesn't even include his own CCIE status on his presentations anymore."

    Ok, so CCIE is worthless because Mr. McNamara say's so and doesn't include it in his presentations. lulz

    I for one am glad, this article just saved me tons of time and study. /sarcasm
    Modularity and Design Simplicity:

    Think of the 2:00 a.m. test—if you were awakened in the
    middle of the night because of a network problem and had to figure out the
    traffic flows in your network while you were half asleep, could you do it?
  • StarwarsStarwars Posts: 12Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    I agree with the guy in regards to the ccie certificate, it's useless. But to have ccie level knowledge is golden. As most of us know, there are thousands of ccie's who passed the lab exam by using **** or working in groups and relaying info on the exam. If you truely master the technology you will always be in demand and command a high salary.
  • RouteMyPacketRouteMyPacket Posts: 1,104Member
    Starwars wrote: »
    I agree with the guy in regards to the ccie certificate, it's useless. But to have ccie level knowledge is golden. As most of us know, there are thousands of ccie's who passed the lab exam by using **** or working in groups and relaying info on the exam. If you truely master the technology you will always be in demand and command a high salary.

    Using your line of thinking, all certifications are "useless" because "as most of us know" people **** them to pass.
    Modularity and Design Simplicity:

    Think of the 2:00 a.m. test—if you were awakened in the
    middle of the night because of a network problem and had to figure out the
    traffic flows in your network while you were half asleep, could you do it?
  • StarwarsStarwars Posts: 12Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Yes, you are correct! Certs are useless, the only thing i like about certs is the structured approach they provide towards studying. I'm known in my company to give a grueling interview, cert or not, if you understand the technology you will get the job.
  • Dieg0MDieg0M Posts: 861Member
    This article is not about certs and cheaters. This is about the content of the CCIE being deprecated because of the rise of SDN in today's networks.
    Follow my CCDE journey at www.routingnull0.com
  • StarwarsStarwars Posts: 12Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    "There is a bunch of certified individuals who don't know how to do crap." Straight from the article, the ccie status is dead not because of SDN, it's because its been comprised for too long. It's just another article saying the same old thing, the ccie cert has no credibility anymore.
  • EssendonEssendon Posts: 4,548Member ■■■■■■■■■■
    A good technical interview separates the riff-raff soon enough. Only way to validate flaunted skills, really.
    NSX, NSX, more NSX..

    Blog >> http://virtual10.com
  • RouteMyPacketRouteMyPacket Posts: 1,104Member
    Starwars wrote: »
    the ccie cert has no credibility anymore.

    So say's you!

    Believe what you want. Not even going to argue with such a ridiculous statement.
    Modularity and Design Simplicity:

    Think of the 2:00 a.m. test—if you were awakened in the
    middle of the night because of a network problem and had to figure out the
    traffic flows in your network while you were half asleep, could you do it?
  • MrBishopMrBishop Posts: 229Member
    The CCIE is not dead and for all those companies with Cisco equipment still in their network, it is a golden opportunity for anyone to have it especially if you're the only one in the company. The knowledge alone with the discount for equipment for the company is very beneficial, don't be fooled by such nonsense. For those believing that working is a study group is a bad thing, you're wrong. It's no different than anyone in school studying together to challenge the other persons knowledge and gauging where they need to work on improving. Continuing to listen to the masses will only delay your progress and your financial future.

    I think having a good solid educational background is the first step and will only make you more marketable. I'm hammered all the time with offers because I never listened to what people said and did what I seen the employers where looking for.
    Degrees
    M.S. Internet Engineering | M.S. Information Assurance
    B.S. Information Technology | A.A.S Information Technology
    Certificaions
    Currently pursuing: CCIE R&Sv5
  • EssendonEssendon Posts: 4,548Member ■■■■■■■■■■
    I don't know why this dude's even on this forum when he's so averse to certifications! For the record, my VCAP-DCD cert has tilted the scales twice in my favour when interviewing for jobs and bumped one of my employers up a level in VMware's partner ladder.
    NSX, NSX, more NSX..

    Blog >> http://virtual10.com
  • fredrikjjfredrikjj Posts: 879Member
    The problem with articles like that is that they are essentially creating a straw man that says that a "CCIE" only knows exactly what's in the particular CCIE track he or she has certified in. So you create this imaginary CCIE person that only knows routing protocols and the syntax of Cisco IOS, and nothing else, and then you say that this person is irrelevant. Because this made up person is irrelevant, the CCIE is irrelevant.

    It doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong, but the arguments are weak. But, considering how the human mind works, people are going to read this post and think that I'm saying that they are wrong (weird, huh?).
  • tprice5tprice5 Posts: 770Member
    Starwars wrote: »
    Certs are useless

    I don't usually give out negative rep, but when I do, it's well deserved.
    Certification To-Do: CEH [ ], CHFI [ ], NCSA [ ], E10-001 [ ], 70-413 [ ], 70-414 [ ]
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  • ninjaturtleninjaturtle Posts: 245Member
    Based off this thread, I'm stopping all my Cisco studies immediately!!!

    Jobs with horses, farm and stable help wanted, grooms
    Current Study Discipline: CCIE Data Center
    Cisco SEAL, Cisco SWAT, Cisco DeltaForce, Cisco FBI, Cisco DoD, Cisco Army Rangers, Cisco SOCOM .ιlι..ιlι.
  • deth1kdeth1k Posts: 312Member
    In that respect SDN is also dead as not standardised in any shape or form yet, different vendors use proprietary tools to their own extend making an open "standard" something it shouldn't be. I don't see it coming to an enterprise network any time soon. It's a great idea but for an application and not a network engineer, I mean have you seen Open Flow config? Cisco aren't dropping IOS and therefore CCIE is always relevant not to mention any Juniper job I've seen required Cisco experience :)
  • WiseWunWiseWun Posts: 285Member
    Trust me I know this first hand, CCIE is not useless. At the very least, it's a good marking tool. Put it on your resume and upload to any job board and watch your inbox be flooded with job opportunities.

    "McNamara, who is part of the Silicon Valley SDN research vanguard, believes CCIE status is already worthless -- he doesn't even include his own CCIE status on his presentations anymore." <---- Oh boy! This guy has his CCIE # on his blog, resume, LinkedIn profile, etc.....don't take such people seriously, live and let live.

    Tech Chat with Colin McNamara at VMworld 2013 US - YouTube
    "If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you’ll never come up with anything original.” - Ken Robinson
  • FloOzFloOz Posts: 1,614Member
    joelsfood wrote: »
    I sure hope CCIE sticks around even with SDN, because the programmers I know shouldn't be touching the network. :)

    As has been mentioned, the theory, the basics, etc, all still have to be there or sdn does us no good.

    This x1000....it is a very scary thought :)
  • ande0255ande0255 Posts: 1,178Banned
    CCIE will always have the inherent value in terms of Cisco partner level status, even if networks are moving away from traditional racked hardware, though I do agree there seems to be a growing number of people who are doing CCIE **** - I believe I have one of those people at my work place. So in terms of that, it can be worthless in some scenarios, as we all know this individual is definitely not on a CCIE level of knowledge though is probably clever enough to **** his way through.

    I think Voice will always be very in demand even at just the Professional level, if you can balance it with the other correct skills for the role, which involves a good understanding of routing / switching / server virtualization.

    All that aside though, my "dream" achievement someday is to get my CCIE #, which I would prefer to be in Route/Switch as I really do love the theory and topics, but my job calls for a different set of skills at this time. Someday though.
    Back in my day we used to route packets on 56k lines, through the snow, uphill both ways.

    https://loopedback.com
  • ZartanasaurusZartanasaurus Posts: 2,008Member
    It makes me sad to know that I have no credibility. icon_sad.gif
    Currently reading:
    IPSec VPN Design 44%
    Mastering VMWare vSphere 5​ 42.8%
  • AwesomeGarrettAwesomeGarrett Posts: 257Member
    Can you write code? Because you might be able to regain some credibility.
  • ccie14023ccie14023 Posts: 183Member
    Starting a thread like this always generates a lot of responses, but let me chime in as a 10-year CCIE and as a director-level architect at a major networking company. This sort of thing comes up periodically and I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it. Analysts, vendors, and writers need to constantly generate hype about "the next big thing" and how it is going to change everything. Well, your CCIE skills will be valuable for a long time. Sure it won't hurt to learn some scripting and automation... Yes, it's a good idea to work with OpenStack or VMware to learn how they work. But if you look under the hood of any "SDN" solution, what do you find? MPLS, GRE, etc. Here is my analogy on this one: if you look at a car today, it's full of computers, to the point where you could barely recognize it compared to a car of forty years ago. A mechanic today has to know a lot about these systems. But when it comes down to it, he still needs to know how to turn a wrench. He's still going change spark plugs and get his hands greasy.
    I'm working on my JNCIE-SP right now after a hiatus of a few years studying for exams, and what I've learned will be very beneficial in dealing with SDN. After all, part of SDN is multitenancy, and service provider networks are multi-tenant by definition.
    Anyway, keep on studying and don't worry about the hype.
  • seittitseittit Posts: 11Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    This is, by far, the best feedback on the topic.
  • sea_turtlesea_turtle Posts: 98Member ■■□□□□□□□□
    @ccie14023

    fantastic response, and in all honesty as SDN is being figured out/tuned/built why not get your CCIE in R&S or any track that is relevant to your job or interest and then eventually you know there will be a CCIE SDN track which you can go in and use to learn/get better with SDN.
  • QHaloQHalo Posts: 1,488Member
    What's worthless is that you had to sign-in to read that article about worthlessness.
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