Book experience vs Real World experience

Hondabuff

Getting close to wrapping up my CCNP I have noticed how people treat you different. Its mostly from some Engineers who have been in the industry for awhile and do not have any certs but real world experience. I feel like they look down on new Engineers who are doing certs to gain the knowledge that they would have no other way of gaining. Just because you passed an exam doesn't mean that you are now Mr. Know it all and can out dual a well seasoned Engineer who has been there done that. I had an engineer throw a scenario at me about a BGP RIB failure issue that he claims that any CCNP should know. I would hate to see what its like to be an CCIE and you don't know something, you would get flamed forever. If I didn't study Route, I would have no exposure to BGP at all other then my lab experience. We just had a Sr. TAC engineer fail his CCNA and claims the only people who pass these exams have to **** cause of the way Cisco sets up their exams. He took it at a well respected boot camp and said they did a great job of giving you the on the "job training" but not the training to pass the exam. He is very good on Cisco equipment but didn't know how to take the Cisco exam and was overwhelmed and failed it. I know the experience only comes with time but I beleave being certified will accelerate your learning curve. Just wonder how you guys and girls handle people who question your authenticity of having a professional level cert or higher?

EdTheLad

Hondabuff wrote: »

We just had a Sr. TAC engineer fail his CCNA and claims the only people who pass these exams have to **** cause of the way Cisco sets up their exams.
He is very good on Cisco equipment but didn't know how to take the Cisco exam and was overwhelmed and failed it.

Now, i could understand this if it were a ccnp level exam, but ccna... come on!
Let me assure you he's not very good on Cisco equipment, he might know how to look in a routing table, configure a switchport, but he obviously doesn't have the basics. Cisco exams can be a pain with the way they ask the questions, but ccna is pretty easy once you have some experience.
Certs are useless, but the knowledge obtained studying for certs is invaluable. Don't care what others think, keep your study and progress to yourself. The main thing is don't be in a race to get an exam, study the topics in detail and then when you know it all well, take the exam. No point rushing, having the cert and not knowing the theory, then going back and studying again.

NOC-Ninja

There are people who are good on passing test, there are people that hates taking test but are good at production deployment due to real world experience, and then you have the guys that can do both. You cant have both right away so you have to work on something that you have.

Not everybody can pass the test since its a lot of sacrifice of your OWN FREE time. Not everybody can deploy and connect EVERY dots. Its all about how much time you put and how bad do you want it. That means you dont stop labbing/working/studying/researching after 430pm.

I had the same problem as you before. One thing i have to tell you is that they can hate all they want. At the end of the day, I have my certs and they dont. I must be doing something right since they are busy hating on me. I will keep moving forward while they are busy hating.

Dont worry, experience will come to you but make sure you also go chase every network projects that pops up.

Although, its not a surprise that they will expect more out of you if you have a CCNP.

Hondabuff

What I noticed with the Cisco certs is. When I passed the CCNA I felt I knew about 80% of the material. When I was doing the course work on CCNP, it filled in the blanks for my CCNA and now I feel I'm 100% CCNA and now about 80% CCNP. I will probably have to do some CCIE work to fill in the blanks of CCNP and just continue with my studies. I don't know how some people can do a 5 day boot camp and pass and feel good about it when I have been working on it the same material for over a year.

Params7

I personally wouldn't take the guy who failed CCNA and says you need to **** to pass it seriously.

Hondabuff

What is a good CCIE book to start off with if?

fredrikjj

This debate is probably as old as writing itself. I bet that in ancient Rome more than one blacksmith told a junior blacksmith that he was a dumbass for reading those scrolls on blacksmithing that they had at the library. I find the debate incredibly dumb, and not because "book learning" is better than "real world experience" or vice versa, but because they are different things. Anyone who is any good at anything does both.

Becoming an expert by just reading books is not possible, it just isn't. As someone who is way too light on real life experience at the moment, I can tell you that there are some things that you just don't get if you've just seen it in a book. For example, if there are three ways you can do something, it might be completely obvious to someone with experience which one of these is the best one. In many cases I might not have a clue. Being an expert is knowing not just what you can do, but also what you should and shouldn't do. This is also why the CCIE itself doesn't make anyone an expert; that exam is just about WHAT/HOW you can do things, not WHY.

Even if you don't specifically study for certs, you need to do some kind of studying to learn new things. No one is (hopefully) just jumping in and doing BGP without first somehow acquiring a basic knowledge of the protocol. Books, white papers, etc, must be consumed. I'm very skeptical of the idea that someone can become good by just doing, and not supplementing with reading. The people who are good, but don't claim to care about studying or care about certs are probably forgetting about the thousands of pages of vendor documentation and stuff like that that they have read.

Sidenote: RIB failure is a fairly simple concept, it just has a fancy name so don't feel bad.

Cider

For sure. I did CCNA for over 8 months and failed around 3 times (ccent included). 5 day boot camp is not the way to go IMO.

bharvey92

Hondabuff wrote: »

Getting close to wrapping up my CCNP I have noticed how people treat you different. Its mostly from some Engineers who have been in the industry for awhile and do not have any certs but real world experience. I feel like they look down on new Engineers who are doing certs to gain the knowledge that they would have no other way of gaining. Just because you passed an exam doesn't mean that you are now Mr. Know it all and can out dual a well seasoned Engineer who has been there done that. I had an engineer throw a scenario at me about a BGP RIB failure issue that he claims that any CCNP should know. I would hate to see what its like to be an CCIE and you don't know something, you would get flamed forever. If I didn't study Route, I would have no exposure to BGP at all other then my lab experience. We just had a Sr. TAC engineer fail his CCNA and claims the only people who pass these exams have to **** cause of the way Cisco sets up their exams. He took it at a well respected boot camp and said they did a great job of giving you the on the "job training" but not the training to pass the exam. He is very good on Cisco equipment but didn't know how to take the Cisco exam and was overwhelmed and failed it. I know the experience only comes with time but I beleave being certified will accelerate your learning curve. Just wonder how you guys and girls handle people who question your authenticity of having a professional level cert or higher?

Sounds to me that the Snr. TAC Engineer shouldn't be in a "senior" position if he can't sit and pass the CCNA exam IMO. People who make comments like that are the kind of people that don't put in the hours of study and lab time. The CCNA is difficult for a reason and they don't just hand them out on a plate.

gorebrush

Hondabuff wrote: »

What is a good CCIE book to start off with if?

The Exam guides are a very good "starting point" - but that's just it, a starting point.

You'll need a whole list of other books too

ninjaturtle

I see this all the time, somebody passes an exam and the others immediately quiz them. And they always open with, any CCxx of the cert you just passed should know this. First off, some people might not be that good at answering a question right off the bat, especially with a stupid opening like "you should know" because it throws you off. You all of a sudden have this expectation you have to live up to. This has happened to me a few times, and it is what it is, but I feel for others that get caught in this position. Now maybe you get something that was fresh in your mind, and for whatever reason you labbed the hell out of it and remember the topic. But if you get a question you were a little fuzzy on, and you can't answer it you all of a sudden lost your CCNP or IE or whatever credentials? What BS!! The problem these days, is people don't know how to be happy for somebody else's accomplishments. They feel threatened that you've just climbed closer or equal to the certification they have too. The question they should be asking you is, what did you think about this topic? Or did you find anything you struggled with? Let me share my experience, or along those lines. We just took an exam, and we just passed it ...for the love of pete stop with the questioning people.

When I hear these questions(where you know its a challenge) or the statement "any CCxx should know" ...my response defaults to conf t 'shut the fawk up' | ignore.

Keep studying, keep labbing, keep absorbing real world experience ...and you'll pawn all the haters. /end

bharvey92

ninjaturtle wrote: »

I see this all the time, somebody passes an exam and the others immediately quiz them. And they always open with, any CCxx of the cert you just passed should know this. First off, some people might not be that good at answering a question right off the bat, especially with a stupid opening like "you should know" because it throws you off. You all of a sudden have this expectation you have to live up to. This has happened to me a few times, and it is what it is, but I feel for others that get caught in this position. Now maybe you get something that was fresh in your mind, and for whatever reason you labbed the hell out of it and remember the topic. But if you get a question you were a little fuzzy on, and you can't answer it you all of a sudden lost your CCNP or IE or whatever credentials? What BS!! The problem these days, is people don't know how to be happy for somebody else's accomplishments. They feel threatened that you've just climbed closer or equal to the certification they have too. The question they should be asking you is, what did you think about this topic? Or did you find anything you struggled with? Let me share my experience, or along those lines. We just took an exam, and we just passed it ...for the love of pete stop with the questioning people.

When I hear these questions(where you know its a challenge) or the statement "any CCxx should know" ...my response defaults to conf t 'shut the fawk up' | ignore.

Keep studying, keep labbing, keep absorbing real world experience ...and you'll pawn all the haters. /end

Fantastic post bro, couldn't agree any more!

JustFred

ninjaturtle wrote: »

I see this all the time, somebody passes an exam and the others immediately quiz them. And they always open with, any CCxx of the cert you just passed should know this. First off, some people might not be that good at answering a question right off the bat, especially with a stupid opening like "you should know" because it throws you off. You all of a sudden have this expectation you have to live up to. This has happened to me a few times, and it is what it is, but I feel for others that get caught in this position. Now maybe you get something that was fresh in your mind, and for whatever reason you labbed the hell out of it and remember the topic. But if you get a question you were a little fuzzy on, and you can't answer it you all of a sudden lost your CCNP or IE or whatever credentials? What BS!! The problem these days, is people don't know how to be happy for somebody else's accomplishments. They feel threatened that you've just climbed closer or equal to the certification they have too. The question they should be asking you is, what did you think about this topic? Or did you find anything you struggled with? Let me share my experience, or along those lines. We just took an exam, and we just passed it ...for the love of pete stop with the questioning people.

When I hear these questions(where you know its a challenge) or the statement "any CCxx should know" ...my response defaults to conf t 'shut the fawk up' | ignore.

Keep studying, keep labbing, keep absorbing real world experience ...and you'll pawn all the haters. /end

Bravo.....I agree 100%. Whatever happened to just being happy for someone?

gorebrush

ninjaturtle wrote: »

<snip>

[/B]Keep studying, keep labbing, keep absorbing real world experience ...and you'll pawn all the haters. /end

Absolutely!!

Priston

If you have a CCNP and can prove you know your stuff, you have nothing to worry about. If you have a CCNP and don't know what the hell your doing, people are going make fun of you.

I used to have CCENT and I've been working on and off studying for the CCNA. When I have to explain CCENT level technologies to a CCNP it's pretty obvious that CCNP is just a piece of paper.

Kai123

I remember a story of a guy who left the same day I joined.

He was doing 1st line support and went to college and got his CCNA and CCNA: Security. When he got the NOC job he would brag about the certs (everyone was impressed), was given slightly more permission because of it but would fudge everything up. He was unable to answer simple questions under pressure, would balls up firewall permissions etc.

He left to become a Network Admin, much better pay as well because of the certs he was unable to demonstrate in real terms (he can now after 2 years experience in the NOC).

Its actually a big topic in the office, because non of our senior IP/Dev guys have any certs. One guy is a walking encyclopedia, extraordinary guy but no certs. I think the office was gonna get him to sit the CCIE for a laugh, see how far he gets on experience alone.

ccie14023

I don't care who you are, or what you do, there will always be someone in life who thinks he is better than you and intends to prove it. I've been in this business a long time now, and I usually don't bother putting my certifications on my business cards or email signature. I learned in Cisco TAC that you just end up getting challenged a lot. They go on the resume and LinkedIn. Meanwhile, don't look at them as proof of your talent but as a means to learn. A well designed certification course is a learning experience and the test confirms that you learned what you were supposed to.

ecuadra

They are just jealous they do not have the certification to back their experience.

I am sure there are networking guys with tons of experience that don't know the latest technology from Cisco. I would even bet that some do not know simple routing protocols like OSPF and EIGRP.

I am only starting my CCNA training and about to take the ICND1 exam. I can tell you with my CCENT alone I can smoke engineers on the basics right now. How data is moved, how to troubleshoot the basics, how to use wire shark to find a solution, router on a stick, osi layer, port security, VLSM, sub netting, route summarization, VLAN trunking, Access control lists, NAT/PAT, DHCP on a router, etc. This is all just from CCENT!

Don't kid yourselves man if you really learn the material you should know more than the ones that are not certified to a certain extend. There is nothing that you cannot learn reading and labbing over "real world" experience.

Params7

JustFred wrote: »

Bravo.....I agree 100%. Whatever happened to just being happy for someone?

You can't help but feel threatened by someone who could diminish your chances at a better job, lol. Personally, I take it as a motivation. It is why I love these forums.

Hondabuff

This has always been my take on Certifications vs. Experience. Certs will never make up for lack of experience. They will help you when your gaining experience to recognize a issue that you would otherwise have no clue on. It will make you a better Engineer and once your experience catches up to your Certification level then you will become a well rounded solid Engineer that can think on their feet and problem solve. I resort back to when I wanted to be a pilot and going through flight school and the instructor teaching IFR techniques even though you are only a VFR pilot. He was saying that even though you are a VFR pilot, knowing how to fly by instruments even though your not rated for it might save your life one day. He always stressed "Situational Awareness" and I believe this rings true in the network arena when dealing with production networks.

RouteMyPacket

ccie14023 wrote: »

I don't care who you are, or what you do, there will always be someone in life who thinks he is better than you and intends to prove it. I've been in this business a long time now, and I usually don't bother putting my certifications on my business cards or email signature. I learned in Cisco TAC that you just end up getting challenged a lot. They go on the resume and LinkedIn. Meanwhile, don't look at them as proof of your talent but as a means to learn. A well designed certification course is a learning experience and the test confirms that you learned what you were supposed to.

Agree! We don't put certifications in our signatures either but I worked at a VAR where you could only use Professional or Expert level certifications in your signature. At the end of the day, you either know it or you don't. "IT" is infested with some of the most egotistical morons walking this planet and you just have to learn to weave your way through the sea of idiocracy and egotism.

To the OP, you are investing in yourself so do what you feel is best for you and let others opinions fall to the wayside. If you are going to show off your certs, be prepared to be able to defend them and show that level of knowledge.

For instance I know of someone who recently passed the VCP55 but has never implemented a solution in his life (dumped it), again that's on him when it comes time to explain why he knows nothing about the technology. it's a double edged sword.

It takes some big huevos to tell an employer "You see this piece of paper with this credential? You should pay me this much money a year bla bla bla because it say's I am certified" when you truly don't understand the technology and cannot provide that level of service. I will never understand that attitude but I digress..welcome to IT.

jaymo

Well said. Couldn't agree with you more.