Loosing hope

Hey all,

Over the past few months my company has had an increase in the number of people we took on for a number of projects. Most of them are good people, that being said, there is an issue. Most are not ready. Most have never been in a SOC job. Let me be clear, I was in a similar position a year ago, but there was a difference. Most of these people I have come to learn, are dumpers. They are coming in with minimal certs and even if they do have the certs, they don't seem to have the drive, the passion, and I would say the knowledge to get started running.

When I came in, I had no experience, but I had my required certs for the position, (I knew what was required, which some people don't seem to know!), I had a good base of knowledge and a desire to learn. I see people coming in who are coming from other areas of IT who don't seem to have that drive and motivation, many are rushing to get the required certs, and when that time comes, guess what they start looking for?

How the heck did we get here?

Comments

  • Kai123Kai123 Member Posts: 364 ■■■□□□□□□□
    IT is a good career, so it will attract chancers.

    No chance of recruiting from overseas no? ;)
  • CyberscumCyberscum Member Posts: 795 ■■■■■□□□□□
    SephStorm wrote: »
    Hey all,

    Over the past few months my company has had an increase in the number of people we took on for a number of projects. Most of them are good people, that being said, there is an issue. Most are not ready. Most have never been in a SOC job. Let me be clear, I was in a similar position a year ago, but there was a difference. Most of these people I have come to learn, are dumpers. They are coming in with minimal certs and even if they do have the certs, they don't seem to have the drive, the passion, and I would say the knowledge to get started running.

    When I came in, I had no experience, but I had my required certs for the position, (I knew what was required, which some people don't seem to know!), I had a good base of knowledge and a desire to learn. I see people coming in who are coming from other areas of IT who don't seem to have that drive and motivation, many are rushing to get the required certs, and when that time comes, guess what they start looking for?

    How the heck did we get here?

    It only gets worse. More than half of the guys I work with are only in it for money, they have no passion at all for IT. Seems like every new guy we get in is just a tad less experienced and a tad less interested in IT.
  • JDMurrayJDMurray MSIT InfoSec, CISSP, SSCP, GSEC, EnCE, C|EH, CySA+, PenTest+, CASP+, Security+ Surf City, USAAdmin Posts: 11,894 Admin
    Your hiring process needs to change to look for people with that are interested and motivated to perform SOC work. I look for people that talk about their profession like it's sports. When you find someone who can not only enthusiastically talk about the plays and the players, but also has played in the game, you've got a promising candidate.

    One other possibility is that the positions offered are so low paying that the company is willing to take a chance on anyone with basic security knowledge in hopes that they will grow to "love" the SOC career path.
  • 10Linefigure10Linefigure CCNP R&S, Security+ USAMember Posts: 368 ■■■□□□□□□□
    Perhaps you can train them? I have two new guys I am training right now to take my place. It has been a challenge getting them to dial in and really explore and learn the environment on their own. You just have to be patient and helpful. Small parts at a time. Good luck!
    CCNP R&S, Security+
    B.S. Geography - Business Minor
    MicroMasters - CyberSecurity
    Professional Certificate - IT Project Management
  • dou2bledou2ble Member Posts: 160
    Welcome to IT! Try a different perspective. These downers make it easier for you to stand out and excel. Want to be unique? Here is one way and all you had to do was be yourself.
    2015 Goals: Masters in Cyber Security
  • cyberguyprcyberguypr Senior Member Mod Posts: 6,909 Mod
    Someone who doesn't know something and someone who doesn't care to know are two different things. I am more than happy to work with someone who lacks experience and is willing to learn and put in effort. On the other hand, I don't waste my valuable time with people who either don't want to learn or do not care. For some reason I keep crossing paths with the ones that do not care. I do my part and try to turn them away form the dark side, but most of the time they are set in their ways and are not interested in progressing. They just want to collect a check. I don't know you, but I can't work with people like that.

    In the situations I've bee involved with the blame is 100% on management for doing stupid things such as not interviewing properly, hiring the first candidate that pops up, not supervising properly, and not taking action on the team's feedback when they determine somebody is not working out.
  • TheFORCETheFORCE Senior Member Member Posts: 2,298 ■■■■■■■■□□
    Don't lose hope, hire me instead! Sure i might not have all the certifications everyone has, but i have a lot of desire and will to learn new things. Plus, I'm a hard working person. Been working since i was 15 tagging along with my father so i know what it takes to be dedicated in a goal and my goal and career is IT Security. I'm in NY by the way, PM me :)
  • ande0255ande0255 Banned Posts: 1,178
    If it makes you feel any better, I have people that make $30k+ more than me per year at my job because they lied about the certifications they hold, and the managers never verified their certifications. THAT will put a bitter taste in your mouth.
  • IT-FellaIT-Fella Member Posts: 63 ■■□□□□□□□□
    I would also add that many people who I worked with in IT told me that they were visual learners and in order for them to get a grasp of something new they would need to see someone does it. I kept telling them it doesn't work like that in IT - you need to have a foundation and still read about various concepts. Especially in software engineering I have no idea how to show someone how to code or script. I would imagine that it's possible to show how to crimp a connector or add more ram, but not how to administer a server.
  • networker050184networker050184 Mod Posts: 11,962 Mod
    Just look at it this way, if everyone was super motivated and into their job then people like us wouldn't be able to move up so easy!
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
  • JDMurrayJDMurray MSIT InfoSec, CISSP, SSCP, GSEC, EnCE, C|EH, CySA+, PenTest+, CASP+, Security+ Surf City, USAAdmin Posts: 11,894 Admin
    ande0255 wrote: »
    If it makes you feel any better, I have people that make $30k+ more than me per year at my job because they lied about the certifications they hold, and the managers never verified their certifications. THAT will put a bitter taste in your mouth.
    Wave this blog article in your boss' face to get someone fired and you can slide into their salary spot:
    How Do I Verify That Someone Is Really Certified? - TechExams.net IT Certification Blogs
  • ande0255ande0255 Banned Posts: 1,178
    I appreciate the blog link JD, I'm familiar with the verification tool, unfortunately I'm pretty sure the supervisor knows but isn't doing anything about it because of the job functions he performs. He basically takes on low-scale deployments of servers and upgrades that our field service (billable) guys cannot fit into their schedule, so for them he is really like a "Network Engineer" that they don't have to pay comission aka cheap labor.

    I believe he is also right now dumping one of the CCIE tracks to demand up in the six figure range, and even then I would bet that my company would give him the money to sell his hours to customers at a much higher rate, over sticking to integrity and getting rid of the fraud.

    Just a complete joke. Gah.
  • UnixGuyUnixGuy Are we having fun yet? Mod Posts: 4,227 Mod
    Think of it this way: you have no control over them, you only have control over yourself, so why worry about what you can't control?

    Just do your thing, learn, enjoy your work, and have fun. Your employer is to blame, and this will keep happening by the way, there is no such thing as a perfect environment. When it's time for you to move on to a new job, make sure you are prepared with new skills/certs because that's whats gonna help you - worrying about those colleagues won't help you. I've been there trust me....


    Also, passion is not a constant thing, one day you are passionate about work, and then out of the blue you run into a family situation or something that puts things into perspective and suddenly work isn't your passion/priority. People change, life happens, your perspective will keep on changing.
  • NOC-NinjaNOC-Ninja Member Posts: 1,403
    You are not alone. I know network engineers and network architects that banks 6 digits. At the same time does not do big projects. IF they do, they drag those projects for a year or two. I know too that they dont study anymore since they dont bring anything new.


    However, these people have a known reputation. They cant cover their tracks all the time. The upper management knows whats going on. Its just a matter of time that they get laid off or they usually dont get considered if there is an advancement in the future. Ive seen it happened here at my work.


    Use the pain to step forward. Get more certs or get a higher degree.

    Remember: "The day you stop learning is the day you stop living." Albert Einstein
  • SephStormSephStorm Member Posts: 1,732
    Thanks guys. I got some good praise today at work during a... difficult situation that let me know my work is still valued. There are a bunch of people who are working hard to do the right thing, and to make something of themselves. Hopefully things will right themselves out without having too much of a negative effect on our mission.
  • ElGato127ElGato127 Member Posts: 130 ■■■□□□□□□□
    SephStorm wrote: »
    Hey all,

    Over the past few months my company has had an increase in the number of people we took on for a number of projects. Most of them are good people, that being said, there is an issue. Most are not ready. Most have never been in a SOC job. Let me be clear, I was in a similar position a year ago, but there was a difference. Most of these people I have come to learn, are dumpers. They are coming in with minimal certs and even if they do have the certs, they don't seem to have the drive, the passion, and I would say the knowledge to get started running.

    When I came in, I had no experience, but I had my required certs for the position, (I knew what was required, which some people don't seem to know!), I had a good base of knowledge and a desire to learn. I see people coming in who are coming from other areas of IT who don't seem to have that drive and motivation, many are rushing to get the required certs, and when that time comes, guess what they start looking for?

    How the heck did we get here?

    Are you still looking? What experience and/or certs would help for getting in the door?
  • devilbonesdevilbones Member Posts: 318 ■■■■□□□□□□
    Do they know the difference between Loose and Lose? I'm just kidding. Maybe.
  • VeritiesVerities Member Posts: 1,162
    SephStorm wrote: »
    Hey all,

    Over the past few months my company has had an increase in the number of people we took on for a number of projects. Most of them are good people, that being said, there is an issue. Most are not ready. Most have never been in a SOC job. Let me be clear, I was in a similar position a year ago, but there was a difference. Most of these people I have come to learn, are dumpers. They are coming in with minimal certs and even if they do have the certs, they don't seem to have the drive, the passion, and I would say the knowledge to get started running.

    When I came in, I had no experience, but I had my required certs for the position, (I knew what was required, which some people don't seem to know!), I had a good base of knowledge and a desire to learn. I see people coming in who are coming from other areas of IT who don't seem to have that drive and motivation, many are rushing to get the required certs, and when that time comes, guess what they start looking for?

    How the heck did we get here?

    I love having slackers around me, because as I do my normal work, it makes me look like a rock star. People notice both those that work hard and those that do not; keep your head down and keep on trekking. Paper tigers are always made visible when it comes to technical abilities, its just a matter of time.
  • McxRisleyMcxRisley OSCP, CASP, CySA+, CPT+, Sec+, CEH, Splunk Admin Member Posts: 494 ■■■■■□□□□□
    I completely agree with JDMurray's first post about finding people who are actually passionate about IT. This is something I always express in interviews. You need to explain why you are different from the average candidate and how deep your entusiasm for IT goes. For me, my passion is pen testing. I make it a point to explain to recruiters/managers that I am not your average "Look at me I cans haxor things" wanabe pen tester. I eat, breathe, and live this stuff. Im always trying to expand my knowledge and understand various attack methods.I feel like this is a rare thing, the lack of passion in IT is real, especially where I work.
    I'm not allowed to say what my previous occupation was, but let's just say it rhymes with architect.
  • ChitownjediChitownjedi Chasing down my dreams. Member Posts: 578 ■■■■■□□□□□
    Just be careful.. soon as my lady got into IT i told her same thing everyone else is... be hungry, have passion and be thirsty to learn and watch how fast you move up..

    Welp she's in the same position I am.. both now in management and struggling to motivate those very same people, while the same projects that we use to deliver get bogged down.

    So keep your eyes on your own journey, and don't worry about others, and make sure that as you move up you know what you getting yourself into.. because it will happen quickly if you make it happen.
  • Fulcrum45Fulcrum45 Member Posts: 613 ■■■■■□□□□□
    Slackers serve a purpose on the career food chain if you can believe that. I wouldn't say I have a "passion" for IT but I do have a strong work ethic and a desire to learn and get better. So when it comes to slacking brain dumpers I look like a rock star compared to them. I wouldn't fret. They will get their comeuppance.
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