Networking Field saturated? rant

ecuadra

I live in St. Louis Mo and we have a couple of good companies that need Network Engineers but it seems that all the positions are for Networking engineers with 5+ years of experience. I have my CCNA/MCTS win 7/a+ and a bit of IT experience doing desktop and help desk support. I also happen to have an Associates in Network Engineering and it seems to me that is not enough even for Junior CCNA roles which are slim to none at times.

I feel like I am competing with IT guys have have been in the field a while from the 2000's with loads of experience. I am being told that back in the day if you had your MCSE / CCNA / Bachelors in some IT field you were pretty much guaranteed a job in server/networking field. Now days it seem people without experience have to work years towards a degree/certifications and then somehow get experience before being able to compete for server admin and network engineering roles.

To top things off help desk roles pay very little and or they make you work on call hours or 2nd/3rd shift schedules especially for NOC positions to start.

At this point I might just switch to coding starting with web development CSS/HTML5/Javascript and then moving on to Java. I did a search for javascript in Indeed.com and over 1K+ searches came up vs CCNA's 250 which is a mix of senior and systems roles and help desk stuff. There are 3-4 real noc positions in indeed.com for st. louis which will have 40+ applicants.

It just seems to me that coding is where its at. The money is there, you dont need loads of experience or loads of certifications or even a bachelors. Heck I would say you dont need any of that just as long as you can code and build a portfolio. I can get my ccnp and know how to configure switches/routers, know about protocols but that doesn't meant jack. Experience is king and newbies don't have it.

and no help desk/desktop support is not being in the networking field. Noc is/ junior positions configuring routers/switches is.

fmitawaps

To my perception, CCNA's aren't network engineers, CCNP's are, and only with some prior networking experience as a junior admin or something similar. But I guess it depends on the company and how big it is and other things like security and wireless needs and stuff like that.

Besides, would you really want to be put into a network engineer job without significant experience and training, and then have to answer to the bosses when there are problems you don't know how to handle?

Iristheangel

Question for you: How much IT experience do you have total? And how many years of doing each role? In particular, what kind of jobs are you applying for in the network realm?

For you, it might be an issue with geography and the types of jobs you're going for.

LeBroke

Entry-level programming positions, especially ones you can get with no experience, will pay just as little as helpdesk. You also need to build a fairly sizeable amount of experience before you can make a decent living. Your career outcomes in development can be a lot more limited unless you have a computer science degree. Finally, your portfolio better be damn good (i.e. write a bunch of useful open source plugins for a tool of your choice), simply making a calculator in JavaScript and putting it up on GitHub isn't sufficient.

It's a sad fact of life that yes, NOCs either pay crap, or make you work nights/graveyards.

As for your search, you have a sizeable chunk of selection bias. A CCNA is a networking-specific certification, so it'll only be in the job ad if it's a networking position, or at least tangentially related to it.

JavaScript is a fairly general skill. A programming job might have "full stack developer" and not even list JavaScript in it. Or you may get an app support job where you have a line like "bonus points: familiarity with JavaScript."

But otherwise, yes, I kind of agree with the gist of your rant. Networking is super interesting, but it hasn't changed much, so there's a ton of people with 10-15 years experience, and very little of it is obsolete. It also tends to attract the more hardcore nerds, so not as many of them move on to management roles (as opposed to jack of all trades sysadmins that eventually become IT managers, for example), and they tend to stay in their positions. And it's more specialized. Windows admins can move into storage or VMware, or even Linux, as the world changes around them, but network engineers tend to stay network engineers.

Also, I found out the hard way that getting a CCNA only really qualifies you to run commands on Cisco gear. It doesn't qualify you to actually design and implement anything beyond the very basics (i.e. 2-3 switches and a router that's connected to WAN via a default gateway or something), not even a medium sized network of a few hundred hosts that's also a BGP peer that a data centre would have.

bermovick

My first job was in St Louis, working midnight shift at a NOC (7pm-7am). Did it suck? Yes. Did it give me experience working on equipment outside of my labs and 2 years' experience working in networking for my resume? You bet.

Deathmage

Do what I did:

I got tired of that same excuse too...

Build a complex and developed home-lab and tinker with it, take pictures of it and post it on a blog. Update your blog and keep it profesisonal, tack on the blog to your resume. If a employer sees you lacking produiction expereince but making up for it with home-lab expereince of complex proportions then they will give you a shot.

It also comes down to how you sell yourself and your confidence levels.

This book isn't entirely related to IT, but the priciples in the book can do wonder with getting hired, it's been my secret to always landing a job after an interview and getting me with the ladies all the time. it's all about inner confidence after the certifications.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0027P8B3Y?keywords=How%20To%20Become%20An%20Alpha%20Male&qid=1451273728&ref_=sr_1_1&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

Confidence through success.

Skynet9

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Its the same case in NYC.

When I got my CCNA back in summer, i was super excited...only to find out it was more of waste. CCNA alone is not enough for networking jobs, CCNP is must and your resume might get second look.

I am now close to getting my MCSA (one exam left), and it seems to be getting more attention than CCNA. So MCSA>CCNA.

stlsmoore

bermovick wrote: »

My first job was in St Louis, working midnight shift at a NOC (7pm-7am). Did it suck? Yes. Did it give me experience working on equipment outside of my labs and 2 years' experience working in networking for my resume? You bet.

Funny, it was the same thing for me too when I got my first job dealing with networks in St. Louis. Except I was lucky enough to work the 7am-7pm day shift (still sucked) with crappy pay.

bermovick

I know; we worked for the same place XD

kohr-ah

This is the catch to networking. The hardest part about it is getting your foot in the door but once you are in that is what matters.

The CCNA is not a waste. As the saying goes the CCNA is a mile wide and an inch deep. However, it is very necessary if you want to go into networking. You just have to keep at it until you can get your foot in the door. Dont just search CCNA. Search network engineer, junior network engineer, NOC, etc. Check craigslist for smaller companies looking for network engineers. Dice. Linkedin. Hit up recruiters (as much as people hate them if you want to get a chance I wouldn't rule it out)

I had my CCNA and my AAS and I started at a hospital fixing printers. Kept offering to do more and more and more for the company. In 6 months I was doing port configurations, wiring, etc and only went up from there.

powerfool

I guess it is a reality check. When you are first breaking into the working world and trying to go down a career path, you are going to find it slim-pickings for low pay; that's just the way it is. It was the same for me in 1999... and it continued for quite a few years because of the Dot-com bust and general economic malaise. But, once I got some good experience after getting my first MCSE, things started picking up quickly and I moved to jobs with greater responsibility and larger scale operations. Things won't be bleak forever, but they sure seem that way at the beginning of what appears to be a "hopeless" road.

pinkydapimp

I mean i think the reality is, when entry level roles are saturated, you have to differentiate yourselves. Dont get an associates, get a bachelors. If anyone can get into a role getting an associates and one cert, guess what, it will become saturated and pays will go down and they will start asking for more credentials because they can.

Maybe grab a comp sci bachelors this way you have alot of other options if you run into this and this will differentiate you against your competition. Maybe look on the vendor side for roles instead of traditional networking roles. Get a job at a company installing routers or networking SANs or NAS devices. And hey, if its is still saturated with folks that have all the certs a BS in Comp sci and you still cant get a job, look in another area and gather some other experience in the meantime.

IT is a huge field. Its not just Networking or sysadmin. i think many times people think they have to go in those directions and as a result they end up in the most saturated areas of IT. And then when they are also told they can get in without a degree(because they know other folks that did) they are setting themselves up for failure.

bpenn

pinkydapimp wrote: »

I mean i think the reality is, when entry level roles are saturated, you have to differentiate yourselves. Dont get an associates, get a bachelors. If anyone can get into a role getting an associates and one cert, guess what, it will become saturated and pays will go down and they will start asking for more credentials because they can.

Maybe grab a comp sci bachelors this way you have alot of other options if you run into this and this will differentiate you against your competition. Maybe look on the vendor side for roles instead of traditional networking roles. Get a job at a company installing routers or networking SANs or NAS devices. And hey, if its is still saturated with folks that have all the certs a BS in Comp sci and you still cant get a job, look in another area and gather some other experience in the meantime.

IT is a huge field. Its not just Networking or sysadmin. i think many times people think they have to go in those directions and as a result they end up in the most saturated areas of IT. And then when they are also told they can get in without a degree(because they know other folks that did) they are setting themselves up for failure.

Thats exactly what I decided to do. There is so much competition for jobs down here and I need every advantage I can get. I hope to be done with my bachelors by July and then continue to improve. Sometimes you gotta stand out from the crowd if you want to get noticed.

hurricane1091

I was working in IT for about 1.5 years before I became a Network Engineer. I had two Associate's, A+, N+, CCNA R+S, CCNA S:, MCP, and enrolled to get my BS in IT Security. I think there was luck involved because no one else even called me, and they didn't want to hire someone that would cost them a ton - so it worked out. I just kept applying until someone called, and then got an interview with a lot of technical questions and did well enough.

I can see why it is tough to get into this field though. I've just started seriously working on the CCNP, and it's honestly needed (or at least the knowledge of the topics covered on it or needed really). But it is tough though, because it is so much easier to learn when you are immersed in the technology each day and get to see it and learn from senior engineers.

Labs are great but the stuff just doesn't smoothly transition to the real world. It's just so iffy. I'd argue that a CCNP with zero networking experience isn't even a good idea. I think it just takes a little luck honestly. I will say this, I did go back to school for a BS because no one was calling me and it seemed to have helped. I was kind of useless for awhile and spent a lot of time on translating stuff I learned from the CCNA to how it worked in the real world.

TechGromit

ecuadra wrote: »

To top things off help desk roles pay very little and or they make you work on call hours or 2nd/3rd shift schedules especially for NOC positions to start.

I worked on the help desk side of things for six years before I got an opportunity to move up into networking. Sometimes you just have to put your time to in get something better. My advise is get a job in a smaller company where IT wears many hats. This way you get experience and expose to many different things. When you move on to a larger company, then you can specialize in a particular area of Networking.

Balantine

I agree about software eating the world.

A lot of networking jobs are going to be programmed by developers in the future.

Danielh22185

I know the feeling and I myself thought I was really in a good position to move on to great things after completing my NA. I was working help desk of about 2 years at the time that I achieved it. I thought it was my ticket to move up and out. I was in for a rude awakening.

I do firmly believe it was my ticket out and it did help a bit finding a better paying job but the biggest value CCNA got me was the chance to step through the door. I think I applied for 100+ jobs went on probably 5 interviews total before landing a position (you can see the saturation level if just 5% yielded an interview). So, if a job is requesting 10+years of experience chances are it's a bit more complex of a job than what you can expect to find with just a CCNA and you may not be looking in the right places.

I too also don't consider myself an "Engineer" yet. From my experience some people especially non-network centric people tend to regard CCNA way above it's luster. It really is an entry level cert, that's it. It wasn't until I landed a position with my current employer I realized how little I knew about networking and realized the true meaning behind CCNA.

I started in a dreaded NOC role, 12hr shifts, open every day, no holidays, less than desirable pay, and basically doing very little actual networking. I basically just monitored the network and reacted to little red lights. However with that role I was given access to all of the networking equipment, and this is where I began to really grow.

Fast forward 3 years ... I remained focused on learning all that I could as fast as I could. I managed to make two upward movements within our technical operations department and now have been doing level 2 network operations support for the same company about 16 months now. Again, I have A LOT to learn, however the past 3 years has provided invaluable experience that kept my career growing.

Basically what I am trying to say is be prepared to work the rough hours, with less than desirable pay for a period of time. Just make sure you are in a place you can learn and grow rapidly. Within short time if you stay dedicated to yourself to learn and grow the comforts of an "Engineer" title will start to show. Think of it this way: A newly certified car mechanic looking for a job isn't going to be started on engine rebuilds, he will probably be put on brake pads and oil changes for a while until he can prove himself and learn. Same thing applies to our industry as any other.

Network technology is always evolving, so the tools to becoming successful in this industry are simple. Stay dedicated to yourself to learn and grow, the rest will come easy.

Mike R

I think Danielh22185 hit the nail on the head there. Anyone with little experience is going to have to start at the bottom of the ladder. Your going to have to take the jobs no one else wants, that may be 2nd or 3rd shift, on call, or lots of travel. Your dime a dozen and until the company is invested in you your easy to replace with another up and coming engineer. The pay and hours will probably suck but look at what the offers are for 3 and 5 year engineers. Take your lumps now when your relatively new to IT and down the road it will pay off.

joelsfood

CCNA is an entry level certification, so unless you have extensive experience, you're going to have to expect to get entry level jobs. Dues have to be paid, either in working your ass off in your own lab to get at least a CCNP, or in putting in the years to get your experience to fill out your resume.
Don't get discouraged, just keep working

networker050184

Iristheangel wrote: »

For you, it might be an issue with geography and the types of jobs you're going for.

Yep, got to go where the jobs are.

Danielh22185

networker050184 wrote: »

Yep, got to go where the jobs are.

DFW is not a terribly far drive from St. Louis and network jobs are a dime a dozen! (Network jobs of all flavors)

shednik

As it has already been said it definitely varies by location, I get called/emailed about the same jobs for periods longer than six months at times. I also spent the better part of a year interviewing for a position on my team because of the lack of qualified applicants that applied and I'm about to re-embark on that same journey again due to that person not working out.

Take what you can if you are infact just starting out and continue to push both in your education and your job.

techfiend

A lot more companies need system employees as opposed to network. I kind of agree the network field is saturated, at least in the entry level. If you can't find a job with CCNA I think it's good to compliment it with MCSA and/or VCP-DCV to get some experience on servers and it'll lead to networks down the road. It took me a year as a sys admin before I could move on to use my CCNA knowledge. After a year or two where I am getting both system and network experience will allow to me to take any number of paths just a few years into the field. If I was looking specifically for network positions I doubt I'd be in the field, still looking for the elusive entry level network position that has some stiff competition.

Iristheangel

I think the whole "saturated" thing is completely based on geography here. In the region where I work, we have approx 150 multi-billion dollar companies in our patch and every single one of them are looking for multiple network folks of all levels. They've gotten so desperate I've had multiple IT Directors tell me that they just want someone with a CCNA-level knowledge and a pulse - experience optional. There's a LOT of duds out there who have 10 years of experience but in reality, it's just one year of experience doing the same stuff 10 times (yes, I'm reusing lines here). I recently hooked up a RG member who only had limited network experience with a six-figure job at my old job because she happened to know her stuff outside of the lack of professional experience in the enterprise.

Just because someone has experience does not mean they know their stuff. Just because someone doesn't have as much experience does not mean they don't know the ins and outs. If the OP is really passionate about getting into networking and wants to do it, I bet he'd have a lot of success in certain parts of the country. If he's just looking for a job that'll pay decent, doesn't want to move out of the local area, and doesn't have a passion either way, well... look for whats needed there and go for it. Just make sure you won't be miserable or silo yourself out of a job 10 years from now.

danny069

Iristheangel wrote: »

I think the whole "saturated" thing is completely based on geography here.

^ yeah pretty much. I'd get my CCNP and see what happens, if not then I'd move.

Phileeeeeeep651

Do you have any networking experience from your desktop and help desk support roles? Are you highlighting these experiences on your resume?

Are you looking for a networking job or specifically a network engineer position? I think its easy in our world to be caught up in titles. Some of the most networking related jobs I've found weren't "Network Engineer" positions.

It's true, the days of "You have a CCNA and a pulse? You're hired and heres 100k" are mostly gone... apparently not in California though

You say the NOC jobs in your area pay low and might work 2nd/3rd shift? Do you plan on working there forever? Even if the pay is low is it more than you're making now? Whats wrong with taking undesirable shift at a not so desirable pay but yet gaining experience in the field that you want to make a career in? I recently took a NOC position that wasn't exactly where I though I'd be at, going from mid 30's to low 50's, but as nice as some extra cash is, it was the experience that I was really looking for. I fully plan on drinking straight from the firehose day one and in a a year, year and a half putting feelers out for higher level internal/external position. Gotta keep the progression going, can't stay stagnant.

It sounds cliche but if you want it...go get it! I know tons of people at my current company who have stuck around wayyyyy longer than they wanted because well, they just didn't want it enough. They hit a speed bump and just turned around. Not saying that's what you're doing but it's truly all about how badly you want it. Just my .02 cents.

Iristheangel

Phileeeeeeep651 wrote: »

It's true, the days of "You have a CCNA and a pulse? You're hired and heres 100k" are mostly gone... apparently not in California though

I should clarify that said person has more than a pulse and at least some experience even if it was limited Military background and one previous network job. Plus she showed an exceptional drive to learn which is why she was brought on at such a high rate. That being said, the "CCNA-level and a pulse" is actually pretty hard to find. You'd be amazed how many people are interviewed with fresh CCNAs and yet they can't explain CCNA-concepts. Sadly, dumping at that level is so wide-spread that it's a struggle to find someone who's a legit CCNA even in an area as densely populated as Los Angeles.

snokerpoker

I know how you feel. It took me 8-9 years in the field to become a true network engineer.

Phileeeeeeep651

Iristheangel wrote: »

I should clarify that said person has more than a pulse and at least some experience even if it was limited Military background and one previous network job. Plus she showed an exceptional drive to learn which is why she was brought on at such a high rate.

By no means was I trying to insinuate that she was just a CCNA with a pulse, I think I just worded it wrong. I was more referring to your comment about IT directors wanting a CCNA with a pulse.

Iristheangel wrote:

That being said, the "CCNA-level and a pulse" is actually pretty hard to find. You'd be amazed how many people are interviewed with fresh CCNAs and yet they can't explain CCNA-concepts. Sadly, dumping at that level is so wide-spread that it's a struggle to find someone who's a legit CCNA even in an area as densely populated as Los Angeles.

Are you serious? How do these people think they can get a job with just dumping the material? If they get to a technical interview, what the hell is their plan now? I'd really love to get inside the mind of a cert dumper and see what their process and reasoning behind it all is. Seems to me if you're going to spend the time memorizing exam questions you could just as easily learn the exam material and pass the test, that might just be me though, or most of us on this forum. Also, I apparently need to include LA in my potential moving destinations!

kohr-ah

Phileeeeeeep651 wrote: »

Are you serious? How do these people think they can get a job with just dumping the material? If they get to a technical interview, what the hell is their plan now? I'd really love to get inside the mind of a cert dumper and see what their process and reasoning behind it all is. Seems to me if you're going to spend the time memorizing exam questions you could just as easily learn the exam material and pass the test, that might just be me though, or most of us on this forum. Also, I apparently need to include LA in my potential moving destinations!

Yes sadly it is a big issue here in Chicago too. I spend so much time wasting interviewing people who cant tell me basics that it drives me insane. I've had to take a week off of interviewing because it drove us so nuts.

Also you can add Chicago to the list of companies that needs engineers. I get bugged at least 10 times a week for work or recommendations as there isn't any qualified candidates up here. And my resume isn't even online!

joelsfood

I get the same here too, Kohr-ah, but no one else is willing to offer me 100% wfh, so they have to keep calling.