Getting no where with interviews!

Robbo777

Hi, I'm not having much or any luck with interviews at the moment, i recently got my CCNA and prior to that the Network+ along with my BSc in computer science a couple of years previously. I have not actually been employed per say in a networking role before and have been doing self employed computer/network technician roles to support my learning and myself in general since leaving university. I did have an interview last week for a network engineer position that i thought i did really well in and was able to answer every technical question they asked me with relative ease. When i received feedback from it they said they really like me as a person and my knowledge to, but my experience is what held me back. My question is how do i get the "experience" if I'm not given a chance?
I have tried applying for CCNA roles over the last 2 and a half weeks but i am just not getting anywhere unfortunately (apart from the 1 and possibility of 1 more), its just frustrating to be honest. How do the people who are in network engineer roles now get into them? At some point they would've had to of had no experience also, so how did they even get a job in it to start with?
It's just frustrating when you know you can do the role but since i haven't been in that position before, getting the chance is so difficult. I'm thinking the CCNP will help me stand out even more and will relinquish any doubts employers have over my "experience"?

joelsfood

YOu're likely going to need to put in time in administrator/technician roles before you get an Engineer position. You tend to need more experience for a job like that.

Two and a half weeks is just a start though. Even with 16 years of experience in a variety of roles, it averages about 4 weeks for me to hear back from most positions, and that is just the start of the interview scheduling, not a final decision. Don't let yourself get frustrated. Patience, and some time in lower level jobs, is going to be key to your path to network engineer roles.

networker050184

I think you need to do a better job of selling yourself. If they are taking the time to bring you in and interview they obviously already know your experience level and would be willing to take a chance on it. Unless you are lying on your resume.

thomas_

I wish I knew. I was experiencing the same thing. Eventually I got a job offer doing field support stuff. Not the job tasks, pay level or benefits I wanted(practically non-existent), but at the end of the day it pays the bills. I'm hoping it will help me get a better job by eliminating a gap in my employment history when I left the workforce to go to college.

I've heard it many times that you sometimes have to take a position that you don't want, shine at it, and then move into a position that you do want. I heard this quite a bit here, but after talking with a coworker and hearing him saying the same thing, I'm starting to believe it more and more.

I'm starting to seriously consider getting the MCSA 2012. I don't think I would go for CCNP, unless your CCNA was about to expire. Even then I would only do one of the tests, until I either got into a networking role or that CCNP test was about to expire.

NetworkNewb

Think you need to get a job at an actual company. I'm assuming most employers see you as have zero IT experience in business/corporate environment and are not going to take a chance on that person to take care of their network

I do agree with Networker's point though. If they have taken the time to bring you in and interview you, they know your background and you would need to improve your interviewing skills. Its not all about knowing all the technical questions that lands you a job. They have to come away liking you and wanting to work with you.

Robbo777

The thing is though, they did come back and tell me they really liked me and that the questions i answered were all correct. It was just simply down to experience thats the frustrating thing.
I wonder how people get networking roles because the other option is Windows server roles, i personally dont see the connection between them and cisco related networking engineer roles? The 2 aren't connected or dont overlap apart from the slightest bit of ip configuration in windows! as far as every else you study for in the CCNA etc... nothing is touched in windows roles. So i suppose my question is how does anyone get themselves into cisco jobs when there are no junior roles either and the roles that you have to start on are windows related? Not an ounce of real networking in them?

TheFORCE

When they say you lack experience they don't necessarily mean you lack experience in networking bur rather than you lack work experience in general. You said that you have been selfemployed ever since you finished school. You have no record to show of working for a corporation, a company or a contracting position. This is what's hurting you thw most. Companies don't want to get someone that hasnt worked in a corporate environment and give you the keys to the kingdom, that just won't work. You need to start with an entry IT level position and then use that to transition to a networking position once you are in the company. Many companies promote from within when the employees continue to contribute. We had a guy that worked in Helpdesk and then got his CCNA and MCSA and became a network engineer. We had another guy that was a desktop support tech and then transferred over to network security. Sometimes some people get lucky and land jobs right away, most of the times, people have to pay their dues. Just dont get discouraged.

thomas_

Robbo777 wrote: »

The thing is though, they did come back and tell me they really liked me and that the questions i answered were all correct. It was just simply down to experience thats the frustrating thing.
I wonder how people get networking roles because the other option is Windows server roles, i personally dont see the connection between them and cisco related networking engineer roles? The 2 aren't connected or dont overlap apart from the slightest bit of ip configuration in windows! as far as every else you study for in the CCNA etc... nothing is touched in windows roles. So i suppose my question is how does anyone get themselves into cisco jobs when there are no junior roles either and the roles that you have to start on are windows related? Not an ounce of real networking in them?

I don't know, that sounds like a woman telling you that you're a great guy and would make a woman happy, but she doesn't want to see you again.

As far as the other part of your post, the only thing that makes sense to me is that junior level networking tasks are easily learned by sys admins, so the sys admins either do that work in addition to their other work or when there is an opening the sys admin is able to slide into the network roles because companies like to have a known person in their roles instead of bringing in an unknown outsider.

Modt of the job postings seem to want the networking and server admin and [insert other skill] which the sys admin with networking experience fit quite easily as opposed to someone with just a CCNA. It's seems like you can't specialize until you get to the advanced networking stuff, but if you have the cert without the experience I don't think it would help much unless the company got some sort of vendor discount by having you on stuff. Add to the mix that a lot of systems are virtualized and you have a result that sys admins are more likely going to have exposure to virtualizstion software as well as opposed to someone with just a CCNA.

sj4088

Outside some exceptionally smart people who went to top universities, had really high GPAs and know to interview/sell themselves most people don't just walk into top level systems engineering or network engineering positions. Companies aren't going to hand a guy(or gal) the keys to the kingdom when they have no experience unless again they can somehow show or prove they are exceptionally smart. Most people are going to have to start on the helpdesk or desktop support, somewhere along those lines. That's even if you have an IT degree or certs. That's ok though because you can quickly move up. I known people with computer science degree start out in tech support and within a year get promoted to system admin then get promoted to systems engineer.

So if you want to be a network engineer try to get into a NOC. You will be ahead of a lot of people in the NOC since you have a degree and cert. You will have the advantage of knowing how things are done in your company to external candidates. So you should be able to show you are one of the people who deserve a promotion.

Robbo777

All useful and fair answers, looks like I'll have to start working towards my MCSA now then haha.
Do i need it? as well as having a BSc in computer science, CCNA and N+. I dont know how much more i could learn from it, or would i just look good on my CV to employers?

techfiend

Depends on the position but an MCSA will never hurt and isn't a waste of time but it's very difficult if you are talking Server 2012. CCNA is an entry level cert and in my opinion, without experience in any area, it's easier than the comparable entry level vendor certs MCSA and VCP-DCV. It also doesn't give you nearly enough knowledge to engineer a network, at least well, without any experience or training. Without experience CCNA is more than likely going to lead to a position answering phone calls about network issues and escalating or network monitoring and escalate. If you're lucky this will lead to the aforementioned training and eventually experience where a CCNP would be appropriate to solidify the skills you've learned.

Thomas is spot on about sys admins, at least in SMB's, being able to gain valuable network knowledge. In my opinion desktop support -> sys/net admin -> sys/network engineer is in more demand (around here), more well rounded and challenging path then noc tech -> net admin -> net engineer.

2 interviews in your first 2 weeks is not bad at all! Many of us spent months or even years to land their first job. Just keep going and don't get discouraged. Look for marketable responsibilities over pay in your first position. Many have wondered why they look for experience but not given the chance to get it. You'll learn after you're in for awhile. I'd say the biggest reason for experience is because companies highly rely upon these positions and one mistake could cost the company a lot of money. People with little to no experience are more likely to make these mistakes. There's also something to be said about learning how to deal with that pressure. Setting up personal networks involves a lot of the same general tasks but it's a different world when money is on the line.

UncleB

Robbo777 wrote: »

I wonder how people get networking roles because the other option is Windows server roles, i personally dont see the connection between them and cisco related networking engineer roles? The 2 aren't connected or dont overlap apart from the slightest bit of ip configuration in windows!

This line represents the essence of why you are struggling to get accepted, so let me try to make it a bit clearer in case it helps:
1 - Networks are just a component of an IT environment and do not exist independently of all other components
2 - Networks server as a way for servers / SANS / PCs / printers etc to work together so understand what they need from networks
3 - Unless you work for a large company, you will have a role that spans multiple areas and technologies, so expect your learning to have just begun in these other fields.
4 - There are a LOT of "paper" CCNA's (ie took the course/read the book and passed the exam but have no real world experience) looking for a role and most will be in a situation similar to you or already working in a general support role, so you need to differentiate through experience or complimentary skills.
5 - seriously consider the helpdesk/desktop support route as it fills in the large experience gaps you have from so narrow a focus and makes you better able to see the networking side as just the plumbing in the IT organisation.

Pretty much every desktop support person I have worked with in the last decade has ambitions of moving to the network team, but they make up less than 5% of the IT workforce in most companies and have to handle lots of other tasks in their role (security analyst, backup checks & tape changer, firewall monitor and in charge of assigning remote access solutions to end users) as well as being a backup to the other teams (server, desktop support and DBAs.

This means a lot of competition for the few roles there are, so learn how to compete and be realistic with your expectations.

NOCs seem a good grinding mill to learn some experience so if you are unwilling to try a broader knowledge base then this may be your way forward.

I'm not trying to disparage your choices, just try to help put the market in context to help you weigh up your options.

Good luck
Iain

Ugly-051

Two weeks is early days, keep trying for a month or so and you'll get somewhere. CCNA with no experience should get you in the door for a network-type role, maybe not so much a tech engineer straight away but it will also open other doors as well once you get in if you prove yourself.

dhay13

it took me 4 months to find an IT job after graduating and i applied to a few hundred at that point. in the last 3 or 4 years i have probably applied to over 500 and have only went on about 10 interviews. patience! and don't take the first job that comes along. i did that and think it really hurt me in the long run. when i started we had 1 DC. i questioned my IT manager and he said he didn't think you could have more than one DC on a network. we also had a workstation that wouldn't connect to the network. he did an ipconfig and said hmmmm....169.***.***.***...i'm not sure whose network that is. we also had no AV on any servers as he felt it wasn't necessary since we don't surf the internet with servers. bottom line was that he had been there 20 years and worked in shipping. the owners liked him and gave him the first opening in the office and figured he could learn it. i went to upper management with my DC concerns and they went back to him with it and he told them it can't be done and that i didn't know what i was talking about. it made me look like an idiot to upper management. it took me over 3 years to find another job and i learned absolutely nothing there that would help my resume. everything was done wrong and patched together and i couldn't do anything to change it. i would have been much further ahead in my career had i asked the right questions in my interview and been more patient

bpenn

dhay13 wrote: »

it took me 4 months to find an IT job after graduating and i applied to a few hundred at that point. in the last 3 or 4 years i have probably applied to over 500 and have only went on about 10 interviews. patience! and don't take the first job that comes along. i did that and think it really hurt me in the long run. when i started we had 1 DC. i questioned my IT manager and he said he didn't think you could have more than one DC on a network. we also had a workstation that wouldn't connect to the network. he did an ipconfig and said hmmmm....169.***.***.***...i'm not sure whose network that is. we also had no AV on any servers as he felt it wasn't necessary since we don't surf the internet with servers. bottom line was that he had been there 20 years and worked in shipping. the owners liked him and gave him the first opening in the office and figured he could learn it. i went to upper management with my DC concerns and they went back to him with it and he told them it can't be done and that i didn't know what i was talking about. it made me look like an idiot to upper management. it took me over 3 years to find another job and i learned absolutely nothing there that would help my resume. everything was done wrong and patched together and i couldn't do anything to change it. i would have been much further ahead in my career had i asked the right questions in my interview and been more patient

This made me cringe so hard. Especially the APIPA and having more than one DC, lol. I really hope you found a job where you can progress and not be tied down by an ignorant boss, wow.

OP, everyone here has said that NOC or desktop support work will help you succeed. They are absolutely correct and you should seriously consider this. Keep applying and make sure your resume is polished as best as it could be so that you increase your chances of getting that interview. I am actually still in desktop support (no chance of moving up because of a government contract) and it has really helped me grow as a professional. Also, take that time to progress yourself by learning new technologies to help you prepare for your transition into infrastructure.

pinkydapimp

networker050184 wrote: »

I think you need to do a better job of selling yourself. If they are taking the time to bring you in and interview they obviously already know your experience level and would be willing to take a chance on it. Unless you are lying on your resume.

THIS!

Typically, if you get to the in person interview, you have a shot at getting the job if you can nail the interview. Interviewing is a skill no different from learning to configure a router. It takes practice and learning how to sell yourself and answer questions. I would focus on this. Read some of the many blogs or books on interviewing and selling yourself.

In the meantime, do you have a home lab? If not, get to it. Build a home network start playing with this stuff on your own. You may not have the work experience, but if you can say i support and secure a fully functional domain with routing and vlans in my spare time at home that may go a long way towards them giving you a shot.

Good luck.

jeremywatts2005

Man you have got to learn how to work it. Really sell yourself and what skills you have. There is demand and you have a skill. Now is the time to be a salesman and go get it. Utilize linkedin connect up with recruiters and network with as many people as you can. Sell sell sell