New Job Offer - Current Company Countered - Need Advice

TeKniques

Hi all,

I would appreciate some advice. I know the general wisdom is to never accept counter offers, but I am very 50/50 split on what to do. This is from the following thread:
http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/116235-panel-interview-advice.html

I applied for a management opportunity with a larger company, went through several panel interviews and didn't get the job offer. However, the same company asked if I would be interested in another security position to which I said "sure" and went through another interview. I was offered the position and gave a verbal yes; I then went to resign with my current employer and they put forth a counter offer.

Current position: Director of IT of an MSP. Salary $80k year with quarterly bonuses with opportunity to make $88k. My role is project focused (like a glorified PM).

New job offer: Security Engineer for for a non-profit healthcare. Salary $102k year, good benefits, very corporate about 5,000 employees. Good promotion opportunities, they were very interested in me which was nice to know since this was the first job I have applied for in a while.

Counter-offer: Salary increase to $100k year and a lateral move to a Director of Information Security role with a 30% incentive on revenue generated from security engagements. The transition would be 3 months. School loan assistance to pay half of what I owe, and an offer of some small percentage of ownership in the company. I also would have to sign a 5 year contract to stay with the company or I would have to pay back a portion of the school loans they pay.

I do trust the owners of the MSP, they are good people. My concern with the current employer is I'm not sure if the transition would actually be 3 months. I know how much work I do now and see this as a big challenge without hiring people ... they did not commit to ensuring hiring someone would happen. I also do have some concerns of having to grow the security side of the business as it puts me in a more sales/technical role ... while I can do sales, I hate it. However, the earning potential at my current employer with this counter-offer is very attractive. As an example, last year was the first year we started offering security services which resulted in a net revenue of $85k which given this deal would of been a nice incentive for me in combination with the base salary. I was the one who also completed the security work this prior year (audits and vulnerability assessments).

Interested to hear what people have to say. I'm supposed to meet with my current employer tomorrow to discuss. It also bothers me that I gave a verbal yes and might have to go back on that ... my word is important to me, but my wife says that's the last thing I should be thinking about here lol.

Thanks everyone.

TechGuru80

It is a little interesting that your current company all of a sudden found $20k in their "piggy bank". The counter doesn't sound terrible and allows for some good potential increase. If you went this way I would make sure that 5 year contract is solely for the school loans and not anything else....just in case you decide you don't want to stay for 5 years. With the current employer, does the pay start once they backfill your position? I would negotiate that too if you stay.

A downside to a non-profit is you might not have a bunch of financial upside after that initial raise. Also you are going away from a management position...which is fine if you want to go that way but it is something to consider.

TeKniques

The pay increase would begin as soon as I agree to the counter. They did make it clear they wanted me to stay, so they were willing to bump my salary. I would only sign the 5 year contract based on the school loans and nothing other. One of the reasons I am seriously considering the non-profit is the school loan forgiveness after 10 years of payments, similar to that of working in the public sector ...

BradleyHU

the fact that you have to sign a contract(a 5 year one at that...yikes!!!) to stay there, I would pass on that alone...

and there's also the fact that I don't agree to counter offers from my current employer...

jamthat

To me, the counter actually sounds pretty attractive IF you enjoy your current company and the atmosphere.

Also, while a 5 year commitment to pay back student loans is pretty long, many employers will do that (I've typically seen 3-year). If they structure it to where each year reduces 20% of what you'd have to pay back (or something similar), that's pretty fair.

Good luck!

Deathmage

Can you have joy in your job is you stayed for another 5 years? - most people move on from a job after 3 to 4 years. Another 5 years is a long time.

Are you prepared to stick around for another 5 years? - moving on to a new establishment would allow you to use your new found talents at your current employers someplace else and may be refreshing to apply it elsewhere...

Again, change is never easy, but change is what makes you grow...

I say move on...

alias454

I don't recall if you mentioned it in your other thread but what was the main reason you were looking for other opportunities? If it was just about money then you should take that into consideration. I suspect there were other reasons you started looking. If you take the contract what happens if you leave in three years? Is it prorated so you will be on the hook for 50% or are you still on the hook for the whole thing? How much is your student loan and how many years to get it paid off?

Interestingly enough, the deal they countered with puts your future squarely in your own hands. If you can grow the security side of the business enough to cover some expenses then you can fund your own promotion if you get what I mean. Also, the other place being "very corporate" sounds more like a turn off to me but maybe that's what your looking for assuming your current employer is not so corporate. You have a tough choice and I wish you the best.

Regards,

TeKniques

I appreciate the responses so far.

My main reason i looked for another opportunity was not because of money. My current role has me feeling stagnant with no professional growth the way i would like. I'm very much into information security but barely find myself doing that, only when an opportunity comes around and then i have to wear the hat. My concern is i feel like I'm losing a step, consistently doing tasks that are mundane and more suited for a project manager. Additionally, i just got my Masters degree; that combined with the investment I've made in information security, i really just want a role in that field. I'm bummed i didnt get the management position, but the CISO called me directly afterwards and explained that it was a difficult decision. This adds to my dilemma because I already gave a verbal yes, and my word is important to me.

I owe a lot in school loans, which makes the counter appealing. Without divulging how much, it would take me 15 years to pay them at my current plan. I would have to pay back 50% if i leave prior to 5 years.

LeBroke

Definitely appealing in terms of school...

But at the new place, you'll be in a dedicated infosec role.

The question is, how likely are you to actually do what you want at your current place? And to add on to what Deathmage has said, will you find yourself still interested at the current place? I know I'd get bored after a few years at a place.

scaredoftests

Go with the new job. Signing to stay at a place for 5 years, ugh.

josh.armentrout1

I'd have to agree with those that say go with the new job offer. If at your current plan it takes 15 years to pay on the loans, the monies you'd get from the new company will offset the % you'd get from the current employer. If you stay with the current guys, you're going to be a slave to them for five years with that clause of paying back 50% of what they tossed in on the loans. Would you have to take out a loan to pay back a loan if you do leave before the 5 years is up?

Someone also beat me to it, but where in the heck did they find $20k out of the blue to give to you? Sure it gives you warm and fuzzies knowing they are willing to pay you that, but it sure would have helped out before threatening to leave the company.

Also as a few have said here, you'll be in an infosec role that you want. The experience you'd get at the new place sounds like it would make up for any loss. And if you leave from the new place after a year to move on to bigger and better things, there is no one you'd have to owe money to except sallie mae.

danny069

I don't like contracts, I'd jump ship.

pramin

Take the new offer and negotiate with the owners of the MSP terms for the new position if you want to go back after 3 - 6 months.

This will give them time and incentive to fill your old position.

It can be seen as the owners are throwing enough on the table that it would take a considerable amount for you consider the offer and you would have to let the new offer pass.


1 - 2/3 years commitment; definitey not 5 years.

2 - Have them increase your compensation so YOU are paying student loans not them (the owners).

3 - Ownership in company - Consult a lawyer to iron out terms of valuation of ownership percentage. What do you get for ownership - ie profit sharing amt/percentage. What if you want to sell the ownership back to owners?


Also if you go with the MSP and what they are offering I call it "you are in bed with them". It's no longer a employer/employee relationship. Its much more when you have ownership ties and in this case they are compensating you to pay off student loans.

gespenstern

TeKniques wrote: »

My main reason i looked for another opportunity was not because of money. My current role has me feeling stagnant with no professional growth the way i would like.

I say move on. Suffering this for another 5 years... MSPs are good to work for, but if you exhausted all your opportunities to learn new and hone your skills then it's time to move on.

Also, $100k plus everything else is still, I'd say, below what you can get with your certs and experience. I see you getting challenged in your new opportunity, develop your skillset further and getting paid even more than this.

impelse

Move on, this statement why you were looking WILL NOT DISAPPEAR: "My current role has me feeling stagnant with no professional growth the way i would like. I'm very much into information security but barely find myself doing that, only when an opportunity comes around and then i have to wear the hat"

markulous

What are the terms of the contract? If you decide to bail before 5 years, what are the penalties? Is there a clause where they can terminate you at any time and not owe you the rest of the money on the contract? If it's just a one-sided contract in their favor I'd pass. Depends on the terms though.

jeremywatts2005

I will say be careful on a counter. Some companies over time may feel betrayed by you. They also may read into your performance that you are half way out the door. So you may be expected to do more than is possible. If the current company wants to keep you then make it on your terms and not their terms. Tell them what you want and start the negotiations. Otherwise it is totally one sided they are getting everything they want in the deal including you. I would ask the salary to be moved up to 120k, 45% incentive on revenue generated and they pay 3/4 of what I owe in student loans and a clearly defined percentage of ownership. Plus no 5 year contract do 2 and no more than 3. See where they counter out. That will tell you how much they want you. I always tell everyone that everything is negotiable at some point.

UnixGuy

5 years contract ==> RUN.

Get the new job, gain more InfoSec skills, increase your earning potential and you will pay off your loans quicker.

Why do people in the US take so much student loans??? 15 yrs to pay it off! Jesus!

TechGuru80

TeKniques wrote: »

I owe a lot in school loans, which makes the counter appealing. Without divulging how much, it would take me 15 years to pay them at my current plan. I would have to pay back 50% if i leave prior to 5 years.

Is that 15 years after the counter offer or your currently salary? That is a pretty important distinction...because $20k more salary plus up to a 30% bonus (assume 1/2) and we are talking $35k per year of extra money. I cannot imagine it taking you too long to pay that off assuming you keep living like you were making $80k. At that rate if you can be in a good spot around the 2-3 year mark, staying isn't terrible.

No_Nerd

I would head for the door. The reason the current company wants that 5 year contract is because they know you are worth more and can find better positions. You my friend are about to be under paid and overworkEd once that contract is signed. See if you can woek a few other options to get the school payment done without signing a contract. Removal of 401k matching or something. Lots of options to get what you need. Get creative. But. I would not sign that doc.

And working for healthcare could bring a new view on things which could help in the long run.

TeKniques

I really appreciate all the comments. Today, I said that I was going to accept the offer with the new company. When I did, I was then asked by my current employer "so what will it take?" ...

It's crazy, I almost feel like I could ask for anything and get it. However, I just don't feel good about that as it feels like taking advantage of the situation. I'm about 95% confident that if I asked for the school loan repayment with no contract they would go for it at this point. The other employer called me to check-in, and I explained the situation. They increased their offer to $107k now.

UnixGuy wrote: »

Why do people in the US take so much student loans??? 15 yrs to pay it off! Jesus!

The student loan business in the US is a racket. However, I have no one to blame but myself ... I didn't really know what I was doing when I was younger. I took a lot of loans to get my undergrad, but then got a Master's degree from a B&M school. Funny enough, my Master's degree was a big factor in being selected to interview for the management position so the ROI so far isn't bad considering this was the first job I applied for since obtaining it.

TechGuru80 wrote: »

Is that 15 years after the counter offer or your currently salary? That is a pretty important distinction...because $20k more salary plus up to a 30% bonus (assume 1/2) and we are talking $35k per year of extra money. I cannot imagine it taking you too long to pay that off assuming you keep living like you were making $80k. At that rate if you can be in a good spot around the 2-3 year mark, staying isn't terrible.

Current salary, there is no doubt I could potentially have the whole thing paid off in less than 3 years if I did it right.

alias454

It says a lot about your character that you are not willing to take advantage of them. It appears they really value you (or you are more important to their future than you realize) and maybe if you have a really good relationship sit down, have a few margaritas and explain to them why you where looking in the first place. Tell them the truth and maybe they can accommodate a mutual win for all parties involved. However, if you feel some irreperable damage was done (i.e. trust issues) maybe moving on is best for you. And how awesome is it to have companies fighting over you?

TheFORCE

Why don't you create another option for you and for your current employer? Since they said what will it take, i would do the following. Go to the new company, and worked on a contract basis for the old company. What i mean is, tell them, i will go but i can still provide my services to you for a fee when you have big projects that need your skills. This way everyone's happy and you get extra income to pay off your loans. It's an option you could explore.

dave330i

The counter offer is quite good. Don't know how much student loan you have, but they probably won't go for no contract. If you're interested in staying I'd start the negotiation at 3 year 100% payoff of student loan.

JoJoCal19

I would take the new opportunity. For one, I never accept a counter. Also, as impelse said, the reason you wanted to leave will NOT go away. And finally, if I'm not good enough to a company for them to give me bumps in pay and pay me going rate in the first place, I'm not going to accept a counter when they realize they are about to lose a good employee and be up the creek without a paddle.

That just happened recently, accepted a new job, when I put in notice the Security Director asked what he could do to keep me and was pleading for me not to go. This after I had multiple meetings over the months prior about bumping my pay since the Security Manager and Security Project Managers both left and I was given all of their duties. Again on my last day when I was turning in my badge and stuff he was trying to ask what it would take to keep me and I politely declined.

If you didn't mean enough to them to get paid what you were worth then, why now?

dcarey4698

Yeah I'd counter-offer your current company on that contract situation. 5 years is steeeeeep!

alias454

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

I would take the new opportunity. For one, I never accept a counter. Also, as impelse said, the reason you wanted to leave will NOT go away. And finally, if I'm not good enough to a company for them to give me bumps in pay and pay me going rate in the first place, I'm not going to accept a counter when they realize they are about to lose a good employee and be up the creek without a paddle.

That just happened recently, accepted a new job, when I put in notice the Security Director asked what he could do to keep me and was pleading for me not to go. This after I had multiple meetings over the months prior about bumping my pay since the Security Manager and Security Project Managers both left and I was given all of their duties. Again on my last day when I was turning in my badge and stuff he was trying to ask what it would take to keep me and I politely declined.

If you didn't mean enough to them to get paid what you were worth then, why now?

I would agree in this situation, especially if they had the chance to step up and denied your requests. I didn't get that from the OP but if that was the case then I would agree.

TeKniques

The situation presented by JoJoCal19 was not something that happened to me. In fact, since joining the company 2 1/2 years ago my salary has increased $20k, started at 60k and now at 80k. They have not done me wrong so to speak, I just know my market value is worth more. When I had my annual review in December I was asked how things were going and I did mention that I felt like my job was feeling too stagnant and didn't align fully with my career goals. They acknowledged that, but there was nothing noticeable to suggest my situation was going to change. Therefore, I saw a good opportunity come around and put my name out there ... I received a call the following day and this is where I am now. They weren't surprised at all when I told them the news, but I must admit that I didn't expect to see this sort of response.

BradleyHU

TeKniques wrote: »

The situation presented by JoJoCal19 was not something that happened to me. In fact, since joining the company 2 1/2 years ago my salary has increased $20k, started at 60k and now at 80k. They have not done me wrong so to speak, I just know my market value is worth more. When I had my annual review in December I was asked how things were going and I did mention that I felt like my job was feeling too stagnant and didn't align fully with my career goals. They acknowledged that, but there was nothing noticeable to suggest my situation was going to change. Therefore, I saw a good opportunity come around and put my name out there ... I received a call the following day and this is where I am now. They weren't surprised at all when I told them the news, but I must admit that I didn't expect to see this sort of response.

but it took you leaving for them to find another role for you...

JoJoCal19

TeKniques wrote: »

They weren't surprised at all when I told them the news, but I must admit that I didn't expect to see this sort of response.

This would tell me that the employer doesn't really care and is willing to let you walk, but then all of a sudden now they want to try and keep you.

BradleyHU wrote: »

but it took you leaving for them to find another role for you...

Exactly.

ImThe0ne

So, did you ever make a decision???