Does Master's degree + limited experience = unemployable?

dudnwoko

I'll try to keep this concise. I'm trying to figure out if getting a Master's in Network Engineering with limited IT work experience will make it impossible to find a decent job.

Quick history:
many years of unofficial tech support that don't show up on the resume
~1 year working PC repair
6 years in the military (non-IT)
2 years for BBA in Finance (finishing in Dec. 2016)
1 year at current jack-of-all trades position that can be nudged toward IT on the resume if I have to


I realized a little late in the game that I'd rather be in IT. Adding/changing majors would have added at least a year to my undergrad degree because of course sequencing/pre-reqs. Getting a second bachelor's seems equally silly when I can get a master's in the same amount of time (not to mention it won't increase future earning potential).

I've been researching the MS in Network Engineering and Security from DePaul University. They accept any bachelor's and I should be able to waive the intro courses with experience/certs or just test out of them. The GI Bill will be paying for most, if not all, of it so the high cost is not a huge concern. I'm working on my CCNA right now and plan to have it by the end of the summer. I've looked over a lot of the courses in the program and they seem quite technical (which is good). Some of the courses are using CCNP material as textbooks, so I don't think it's unreasonable to try for a CCNP and/or CCNA Sec while in the program.

So here's the big question: If I come out the other end with an MS in Network Engineering and Security and a CCNP R&S, can I find a network engineer job at that level? I'm not necessarily looking for big bucks because I know someone is going to have to take a chance on me for that first job. I just want to start in a relevant position so I don't get stuck in a job silo that doesn't lead where I want to go.



I'm sure someone is going to say to start in the helpdesk, but I have zero interest in working another crap helpdesk-type position. That's what drove me away from IT to begin with. I spent half my time in the military working night shifts, so I'm over that too. I have a family and I like sunlight (i.e. not interested in low level NOC positions). It's pretty hard to justify taking a $30k IT job in 2+ years when I can easily get a finance job that pays twice that by the end of the year. Frankly, I can drop out today and make more than 30k fixing and selling cars out of the garage.

NetworkNewb

So you don't want work a NOC position (or any entry level position) but want someone to hire you as a network engineer with zero real-world networking experience? And of course don't want to work for low pay in a field you have ZERO experience in...

I'm guessing that won't ever happen but if you had a really good friend high up the food chain at a company you might be able to make it work.

scaredoftests

Sorry, employers look for experience first...

danny069

Experience trumps all. However, someone's gotta give you a chance to get that experience at some point.

nelson8403

It would be very difficult for you to get a CCNP level job with no experience to back it up. You'd basically just appear as a paper cert candidate (just having the cert with no experience) studying and passing tests are one thing but having the experience to back it up especially in production where you may only use a few concepts from the CCNP.

I'd look for an entry level networking job now and see if you can work part time or full-time while attending school and 2 years + masters degree may help you get into that type of position.

$bvb379

Here is my personal observation with recent college graduates.
1. Get a STEM degree
2. Make sure you actually get to know your professors
2. MAKE SURE YOU DO INTERNSHIPS/CO-OPS

You already are going for the first so make sure you do the second and third. A lot is who you know and not what you know. Your professors will most likely know a lot of people in the industry and have some pull on who gets in and who does not.

There is a huge difference between my friends who have done what I have listed and my friends (including myself) who went to college not knowing what they wanted to do and not doing internships. The former all have high-paying careers and never had to do any of the grunt work most people on here suggest you have to do. Remember, companies like to hire internally so doing an internship/co-ops give them an excuse to do so, it is also a vetting period. Good luck. Again, this is my observation of the last few years of my life. I understand some people will have a different experience.

I just wanted to add that my friends who have these very nice careers had no prior work experience in the field, just the degree. So, it can be done.

dudnwoko

NetworkNewb wrote: »

So you don't want work a NOC position (or any entry level position) but want someone to hire you as a network engineer with zero real-world networking experience? And of course don't want to work for low pay in a field you have ZERO experience in...

I'm guessing that won't ever happen but if you had a really good friend high up the food chain at a company you might be able to make it work.

Low level pay and poor working conditions are what I object to, not a low level job.

IT is the only field I've encountered that is actively hostile toward degrees. That's great for someone coming out of high school, but not so great for someone looking to get in later in life. In most other fields, a degree is a good way to change careers. It shows you're at least halfway competent and have some relevant knowledge when you don't have experience on your resume.

$bvb379 wrote: »

Here is my personal observation with recent college graduates.
1. Get a STEM degree
2. Make sure you actually get to know your professors
2. MAKE SURE YOU DO INTERNSHIPS/CO-OPS

You already are going for the first so make sure you do the second and third. A lot is who you know and not what you know. Your professors will most likely know a lot of people in the industry and have some pull on who gets in and who does not.

There is a huge difference between my friends who have done what I have listed and my friends (including myself) who went to college not knowing what they wanted to do and not doing internships. The former all have high-paying careers and never had to do any of the grunt work most people on here suggest you have to do. Remember, companies like to hire internally so doing an internship/co-ops give them an excuse to do so, it is also a vetting period. Good luck. Again, this is my observation of the last few years of my life. I understand some people will have a different experience.

I just wanted to add that my friends who have these very nice careers had no prior work experience in the field, just the degree. So, it can be done.

I'm more interested in the exceptions than the rule, so thanks for posting this.

scaredoftests

I really beg to differ. I have never seen active hostility towards degrees OR for someone looking later in life (I am 56 and a woman). Experience helps with the degree and the motivation to always have an open mind to new ideas.

Danielm7

dudnwoko wrote: »

IT is the only field I've encountered that is actively hostile toward degrees.

Typically only from people who don't have their degree. Same goes for certifications. As education inflation continues this mindset can't last forever.

$bvb379

I am the exception as well so I wish you all the best.

NetworkNewb

dudnwoko wrote: »

IT is the only field I've encountered that is actively hostile toward degrees.

I worked in IT for a Fortune 100 company a few years back and they had a policy where they wouldn't even hire anyone without a Bachelor's degree.

markulous

A degree will never trump experience. A degree gets you past HR requirements and adds another feather to your cap. Getting a master's is fine, but I wouldn't expect it to open up any doors at the moment since you have a BS.

Imagine if you were a business owner or IT director. Would you hire a network admin that has no network admin experience? I personally wouldn't.

the_Grinch

Low level job with low pay is the nature of this industry. Since you reference finance, IT is considered a cost center and is treated accordingly. Unfortunately you're going to either have to suck it up and deal with a few years of crap or I'd suggest a different industry. Very few companies are going to say "oh you have a Masters and CCNP? He's the keys to my network do whatever you like." You and I both know that what works for a test or in a lab is not what works in the real world.

Now if your aversion is to working night shift just don't apply to jobs that post for it. I've only worked night shift if I actively sought it out, otherwise it was 8 or 9 to 5 no weekends and no nights (also no on call). It's a hard lesson to learn (having to start at the bottom), but we've all done it. When I got out I had experience and a degree. Thought for sure I'd be making $50k at least and that I wouldn't need to be on the help desk. 8 months later after many interviews I was at $35k and on a help desk. Took a few years, but I'm off the help desk and doing the security work I had always planned on doing. I would have been much better off if I didn't have the idea in my head that I was going to not be doing help desk.

My suggestion is as follows:

Get an IT job preferably in an MSP like environment. You'll be on the NOC or the Help Desk, but at least there is a variety of tickets. Snipe anything network related that you can get and utilize it to cozy up to the Network guys. During this time start getting certifications and completing your Masters. By the time you're done you'll have a solid year or two of experience, certifications in the area you think you want to be in and will be ready to apply either to move up where you are or go elsewhere. Right now you assume that Networking is where you want to be, but that could change. Getting experience is there not only to get better jobs, but to also tell you what direction you want to go. The number of areas in this industry is staggering and only experience will tell you want you really want to do.

On another note, since you have finance experience, auditing or business analyst might be up your ally as well. Typically, both of those positions start off higher and don't deal with help desk functions.

Polynomial

I'll side the advice in this thread with a slight twist on it.

I got a semi specialized (just in IT) Master's degree during my first job after college. I had the time to do it and finished it swiftly. It'll never expire. Network Engineering might be too risky of an investment imo.

I've followed the education / certification / experience advice this forum preaches to a place where I am pretty happy.

dudnwoko

I thought it was clear from my initial post that I'm not expecting or trying to walk into a CIO/CTO role with no experience, but I guess not. Thanks to those who offered useful feedback.

The military has an unfortunate number of people who were treated like garbage when they were junior officers/lower enlisted. As they move up the ranks, rather than remembering what it felt like and breaking the cycle, most of them perpetuate it. I thought IT was a little more meritocratic than that, but it seems there's more of that mentality than I expected. "I spent seven years suffering at the helpdesk before I got my break, so I'm going to make sure you suffer too."

But I guess that's why I posted, to see what kind of opposition I'd be up against.

PJ_Sneakers

I think the theme is that without any relevant experience, you will likely start in an entry-level position regardless of how credentialed you are. Help desk or otherwise.

That's barring any other circumstances such as political hiring or nepotism.

Ukimokia

dudnwoko wrote: »

I have a family and I like sunlight (i.e. not interested in low level NOC positions).

dudnwoko wrote: »

Low level pay and poor working conditions are what I object to, not a low level job.

I know you're not expecting to walk in and become a CIO or CTO, but these contradict each other. If you're lucky and in the right area you might find a NOC/System Admin job starting out around 40-60k with certs and a degree. But anything much above that is likely going to require some on the job experience.

One of my friends who was in a similar situation a year and a half ago, coming out of the military and got similar certs started on a help desk making $12hr and a year and a half later became a GS12 in the same place he started his contracting job. With a degree and some certs you'll certainly move up a lot quicker than someone without either, but again. As a lot of people have said experience is king, but a degree can be your Excalibur. IT is a "Show Me" profession. If you can prove what your degree and certs say you can do. Then you'll have no problem getting a decent job and moving up.

iBrokeIT

There is meritocracy in IT and it is experience based. Degrees and certifications are not the golden ticket that you seem to think they should be. Sure they help but they are not a substitute for experience, they are meant to compliment it.

"Engineer" level positions in IT are not entry level. You need to prove yourself capable of troubleshooting and being an admin at the lower levels before you get to move on to advanced positions like Network Engineer.

Have you actually looked at the job postings and requirements for a Network Engineer on job sites?

How would you answer some these questions:
What's the most difficult networking problem you've ever solved?
What's the biggest production network you've designed and/or refreshed?
Tell me about time where you've had difficultly working with a vendor, how did you resolve the issue?

the_Grinch

One should never ask for advice if all they are interested in is hearing what confirms their initial thought regardless of the truth behind it. You are correct you didn't express that you thought you would walk in and become the CIO/CTO. But you allude to not wanting to start at the foundation that is the basis for any information technology position (or for that matter just about any job). This isn't "I got crapped on for years so everyone has to" this is the reality of the world we live in. You want someone to tell you about some magical shortcut where they jumped right into network engineering without ever doing the grunt work. The reason you aren't getting an answer with the magical shortcut? There isn't one.

You aren't alone, most of us at one point or another said "I have x cert or y degree I can do this job", but eventually we all realize this simple fact: experience is worth vastly more then the paper. Paper helps, but in the end you won't know what to do in situations without experience. I'll end with this, good luck to you. Maybe you will be the one that bucks the trend and lands that network engineering position without any real world experience. I'd implore you to heed the advice you got here and set the bar properly because you'll lose a lot of time aiming for a position that will be out of reach.

NetworkNewb

dudnwoko wrote: »

I thought it was clear from my initial post that I'm not expecting or trying to walk into a CIO/CTO role with no experience, but I guess not. Thanks to those who offered useful feedback.

Funny thing is you probably stand a lot better chance to actually go into one of those roles over a Network Engineer based on your background in finance.

It just comes down to no one is going to let you have control over their network without a decent amount experience. Doesn't matter what certs or degree you hold. It takes a lot of real-world experience to deal with all the issues that can arise and they have to know you are able to handle those issues in a real setting. Doesn't matter if you practiced it in a lab a hundred times.

renacido

Fair or not, with a MS and CCNP with no relevant experience, you will be fighting against the following perceptions when applying to mid-level network engineering positions:

- "You might be just a 'paper CCNP'"

- "You may be a 'professional student'"

- "You will be presented with a number of complex problems that require insight from previous experience, which you don't have."

Employers value experience over everything else because the best indicator of your potential is your past performance. There's also a bit of social proof to it - "if you were good enough for them, you're probably good enough for us".

My advice is to get a job related to network engineering. An entry-level job, simply put, is best for you right now for these reasons:

- Other candidates you're competing with for the job are not bringing many years of experience, so your lack of experience is not such a glaring deficiency

- Entry-level employees are less critical to the success of the business, so they can accept more risk in hiring someone with lots of unproven potential

- Hiring managers may see your education and cert and see in you an opportunity to bring someone on board relatively cheaply who they can mold into a great asset

- You're more likely to be hired for the "person has a passion for this job, they may be a rock star given the chance" argument. Less risky, easier to replace you if you turn out to be an unreliable slacker or an a-hole.

I strongly recommend AGAINST being a grad student for the next 2 years, then looking for your first job. Work in IT. Yeah, entry level. Suck it up for a year or 2 while you get your certs. After a year or 2 you may have an opportunity to get a mid-level job. Then get your Masters. An MS doesn't matter for jack diddly squat for any role that doesn't have direct reports and budget to manage.

***FWIW, your military experience will help counter the doubts and perceptions I listed above, in that ex-military folks are seen as reliable, able to follow policy, low risk for behavior issues, able to work in a team, willing to execute tasks, punctual, etc. So make sure you include your previous military experience, relevant to IT or not. If you're a combat vet, mention that as well. People are hired based on their character as well as their job qualifications, believe me on this.

markulous

The Grinch brings up a good point in that probably all of us here have felt that way.

I've gotten denied because I was too raw and didn't have the experience to back it up even though I knew I'd nail the job. Sometimes you'll get lucky on people that will take a chance on you and spin you up because they see your passion and hunger to learn and move up, but a lot of times that is not the case.

nathandrake

dudnwoko wrote: »

Low level pay and poor working conditions are what I object to, not a low level job.

IT is the only field I've encountered that is actively hostile toward degrees. That's great for someone coming out of high school, but not so great for someone looking to get in later in life. In most other fields, a degree is a good way to change careers. It shows you're at least halfway competent and have some relevant knowledge when you don't have experience on your resume.

I don't know if I agree with that at all. I have a bachelor's degree from DeVry. So if anyone would expect to see hostile towards their degree, it would be me. I've only had one person interviewing me give me a hard time about DeVry, and it's because he also went there too, so it was more so joking around. I have my master's degree from WGU. Before my degree from WGU, I had no working experience in the security field. Having a master's degree focusing on security not only helped me land a few interviews, but also get a job in the security field. But at the same time, I took the lower level job and worked my way up. Started at as help desk. Then moved on to Desktop Support. Then moved on the VMware administration side. Which seems something you are not willing to do from a previous post I saw of yours. I get not wanting to do help desk, which is fine, but expecting someone to trust you to support their entire network with limited or no experience is going to be very hard to do.

EnderWiggin

Changing fields requires you to start at the bottom. It's not an IT field thing, it's just the job market nowadays. And starting at the bottom, you're going to get bottom-level pay. Employers won't be willing to pay $60K for a $30K position, just because you have a degree and a cert. If you're willing to take an entry-level rate, for an entry-level position, you'll be golden with those credentials, and could likely just walk into a position.

tpatt100

Yeah changing fields is difficult because employers probably won't care about your unrelated work experience. I am former military also and just got lucky my MOS from the National Guard opened up opportunities for me in IT. My Marine Corps experience not so much because employers in IT don't care about my Combat Engineer experience.

The thing is your past experience might be related if you look at this in a creative way. You said you were working on your education in finance. Have you looked at Auditing as a career?

There are growing opportunities for people with IT and financial experience. I noticed many job postings for auditors with CISA and and or a CPA, you would work with SOX and COBIT. Financial information security is becoming pretty big and I notice there are not a lot of people with finance and IT experience it's either one or the other.

You will have to be creative and seek out these opportunities once you put the time in and study the stuff I mentioned above.

OctalDump

Business + IT? Great combo. Stretch your resume a bit to include whatever experience you have. Include a "volunteer" section if you have to, make sure that when you list your roles, you include 'duties included' or whatever to include your IT experience.

You might have a slow start, but I think that combo of degrees and your broader experience should allow you to catch up soon enough and end up in great position.

TechGuru80

Network Engineer job? Probably not. Part of the problem is that you will have next to no experience on live networks and nobody is going to say..."hey let's throw the new guy on our multi-million dollar network that supports our entire business." Not to mention that networking is a very hard field to break into...most positions will want somewhere in the ballpark of 2-5 years experience for entry level network engineer jobs. You might have to start at help desk, or try to get an entry level system administrator job that you can break out of. Not all help desk jobs will pay $30k but I would expect probably in the ballpark of $30k-$50k. Did you look into military contractors? You might be able to land a better starting job there compared to the private industry because you have the military background...very favorable in that industry.

networker050184

It doesn't equal unemployable. Just doesn't allow you to get your pick of jobs. Remember you're competing against people that have your same qualifications and years of experience to boot for those engineering roles.

alias454

Network engineer no but I bet you would make a great manager.

Fadakartel

I`ve seen a CCNP with experience get picked over a guy with a CCIE and a MSC and no experience. I would be pissed if i got a ccie and a msc and lost to a guy with just with just a CCNP.

Dojiscalper

Fadakartel wrote: »

I`ve seen a CCNP with experience get picked over a guy with a CCIE and a MSC and no experience. I would be pissed if i got a ccie and a msc and lost to a guy with just with just a CCNP.

When people know people it happens all the time.