contract position

So i received a call today from a recruiter for a contract position at a very large banking institution as a Cyber Intrusion Analyst. my current position is as a W2 employee for a company with a contract with the fed. gov't. i am not sure how long this job will be here but i have been here over a year now. i make $60k with full benefits. this banking institution is known for bringing contractors in long term and i was told a minimum of 6 months, probably 12. i still wasn't too interested until he told me $60/hour. i am still very concerned about leaving what i know for what might be, as well as the aspects of being on a contract. i assume i am a contract employee and not a W2 employee of the recruiting firm but haven't verified that yet.

thoughts? if i will be a contract employee how is that handled? what if i get an offer from another company in 3 months? am i locked into the contract until the end?

ideally i would like to pass for a full-time offer elsewhere but so far i haven't had any luck.

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dustervoice

The bank i worked for half of the employees are contractors. Some where there for even 15 years as contractors. The benefit the employee receives is very high wages and the bank get the benefit of being able to sack you without reason and they save on benefits as well. You are never locked into a contract normally a two weeks notice is required. Banking environment can be very demanding some insane hours 9am-8pm is the norm. That life wasnt for me so i left. Good luck in your choice.

varelg

Benefits. Yes or no. Stick with what you have.

tmtex

Was the recruiter Indian? They seem to be resume hunters

dhay13

no. he was american. there are benefits but i haven't seen the details yet. he said they tack on about $4000 for vacation and said they offer healthcare, although i'm sure it will cost me about $1000/month for it. i have a phone interview with the recruiter tomorrow so we will see how that goes. i'm 90% i will not take the job just because of the contract situation. i'm looking for somewhere i can stay at for several years and work my way up the ladder.

UncleB

If you make $60k / year now then the comparison to the contract rate is:
$60/hr * 40hrs/week * 48 weeks a year (4 weeks for holidays, sick etc) = $115k/year before benefits

If you think benefits and the risk of contracting are not worth the $55k rise then you have your answer.

It is a rather simplistic view but it helps see if is worth looking further.

thanks
Iain

Danielm7

Are you trying to get into security? And the bank is known for doing contract to hire? If so I'd likely do it, in the shorter term you double your income (without taking the benefits into consideration). I don't know what your state's rules are but in most of the US they can still sack you whenever they want, being an employee doesn't guarantee anything except the ability to claim unemployment. Even that, if you're a W2 from the contractor you might be able to do that too.

kiki162

You are already second guessing yourself on this. Bottom line...don't do it.

Remember that a lot of these recruiters really don't have an idea on what the position REALLY requires. Even if you got into this position, you'll probably be in over your head, and considering the certs you have posted on your profile, I don't think you'll be completely qualified for that kind of job. You have a digital forensics background I'm assuming, but you'd probably need a few more years, and certs (GIAC, ISC2) to feel comfortable with that role.

Stay at your current job, as you have stability and security for the time being. If you really want to get into a new position once your contract ends, you should make the investment in yourself to get you there.

dhay13

thanks all. i am working in the security sector now for about a year but at my last job i handled AD (OU's), GPOs, file permissions, firewall, etc.

99% sure i am not going to take this job just because of the contract deal

ITSpectre

This is how contracting works... (im a contractor now)

The Employer bids on a contract and if they win then they need to fill positions. Just because they SAY its a 6 month to 12 month contract that does NOT mean they will keep you on that entire time. At the end of the 12 months they re bid on the contract and many people are laid off... (those that did not perform well, have the right certs etc..) You are good where you are honestly. Contracting is ok if you need a job, but I lost a lot of sleep worrying about if I was on the chopping block. Imagine going through that every year or every 6 months!?!?!
Contractors are not locked into anything until the contract ends. I would not do it and stay where you are, get more experience, and then find a full time job somewhere else....

ITSpectre

I will add. Most of the contract positions that people call you about.... are a waste. Many of them offer a higher pay rate to substitute for crappy benefits....

Chevel

ITSpectre wrote: »

I will add. Most of the contract positions that people call you about.... are a waste. Many of them offer a higher pay rate to substitute for crappy benefits....

This is SO true.

nascar_paul

Great information guys. I love hanging out on this board!

Danielm7

ITSpectre wrote: »

I will add. Most of the contract positions that people call you about.... are a waste. Many of them offer a higher pay rate to substitute for crappy benefits....

That's the entire point, of course they pay more to compensate for the lack of benefits...

Danielm7

ITSpectre wrote: »

This is how contracting works... (im a contractor now)

The Employer bids on a contract and if they win then they need to fill positions. Just because they SAY its a 6 month to 12 month contract that does NOT mean they will keep you on that entire time. At the end of the 12 months they re bid on the contract and many people are laid off... (those that did not perform well, have the right certs etc..) You are good where you are honestly. Contracting is ok if you need a job, but I lost a lot of sleep worrying about if I was on the chopping block. Imagine going through that every year or every 6 months!?!?!
Contractors are not locked into anything until the contract ends. I would not do it and stay where you are, get more experience, and then find a full time job somewhere else....

Also, not all contracting works that way. Lots of places, including my workplace use contract employees as it's easier to bring them in as an accounting expense vs increasing headcount. Their contracts get extended for years if they want, some end up going 1099 independent for even more money or they get hired.

Nightflier101BL

I'm on a contract right now. I was originally told 6 months but have been here now over a year. However, people around me are are dropping like flies every couple of months due to layoffs. I've been really stressed out for the majority of my time here because I don't know if I'm going to come in one day then be told to go home, I'm done. How it works in my company - a buddy gets a phone call from the boss. He says "sorry, you're next, good luck". That's it. No personal face-to-face, nothing. Just a random phone call. I keep getting told that I'm safe and nothing's going to happen to our immediate group because we're so critical. But the next day, I hear that there are three in our group that are being looked at.

I'll never work another contract job again. Also, I'll stay away from mega-companies because I found that I'm just a number. Stick with the benefits and security, where you can. I'd take a pay cut just to have the added job security. How can you live a normal life when you have to constantly worry about being laid off?

ITSpectre

Danielm7 wrote: »

Also, not all contracting works that way. Lots of places, including my workplace use contract employees as it's easier to bring them in as an accounting expense vs increasing headcount. Their contracts get extended for years if they want, some end up going 1099 independent for even more money or they get hired.

Right but the majority of contract jobs are high pay, crappy benefit gigs. A full time job w/benefits, 401k, medical. dental, and vision is way better then a contract job. Granted contracts are not all bad... but its hard to find good contract jobs that pay well and give good benefits WITH no worry about contract extension and layoffs.

ITSpectre

Nightflier101BL wrote: »

I'm on a contract right now. I was originally told 6 months but have been here now over a year. However, people around me are are dropping like flies every couple of months due to layoffs. I've been really stressed out for the majority of my time here because I don't know if I'm going to come in one day then be told to go home, I'm done. How it works in my company - a buddy gets a phone call from the boss. He says "sorry, you're next, good luck". That's it. No personal face-to-face, nothing. Just a random phone call. I keep getting told that I'm safe and nothing's going to happen to our immediate group because we're so critical. But the next day, I hear that there are three in our group that are being looked at.

I'll never work another contract job again. Also, I'll stay away from mega-companies because I found that I'm just a number. Stick with the benefits and security, where you can. I'd take a pay cut just to have the added job security. How can you live a normal life when you have to constantly worry about being laid off?

Contracting is kinda like being on Death Row.... each day you are worried that your number may be called. its a horrible way to work. Also to further speak on mega companies they also do a lot of outsourcing. So you have the added worry of "is my job going overseas"?

Cerebro 2.0

It depends on where you work. In London there a dime a dozen contracting jobs, so you can literally walk into jobs one after the other. Obviously using common sense dictates that you save a significant portion of your wages to have a buffer, a few months is ideal. Contracting is extremely enjoyable as you are immune to the bureaucracy and office politics, it keeps work life fresh and interesting. The best position is to be on a long term contract, I once worked with a colleague who was on a 2 year fixed contract making twice the rate of employed compatriots.

Christian.

ITSpectre wrote: »

Right but the majority of contract jobs are high pay, crappy benefit gigs. A full time job w/benefits, 401k, medical. dental, and vision is way better then a contract job. Granted contracts are not all bad... but its hard to find good contract jobs that pay well and give good benefits WITH no worry about contract extension and layoffs.

In my case, I work as a contractor and I rejected twice offers from my manager to become a full time employee. I had long discussions with him trying to convince me to accept, but even with all the benefits they have (pension, 401k, health, bonus, etc), I still make more. It's difficult to accept a pay cut when pretty much nothing is going to change, but that's my case, not every contractor position in the market is the same. The thing is, they can still fire you as an employee, they might have to jump through more hoops, but if they want you gone, you will be gone regardless of your employment type. If they want you, they will find a way to keep you too.

Many places have too much red tape to bring people into their teams, so they use full time contractors that are essentially just another employee used for staff augmentation. If I were the OP, I would personally like to hear more about the position and try to find out how they work. If they have contractors working there for years, it might be a good position.

TechGromit

dhay13 wrote: »

I make $60k with full benefits. this banking institution is known for bringing contractors in long term and i was told a minimum of 6 months, probably 12. i still wasn't too interested until he told me $60/hour.

Any benefits? Don't underestimate the value of good benefits. My wife takes medication, and the even best insurance I could buy on the open market myself ($950 a month) doesn't come close to the coverage of my employer paid benefits. My out of pocket cost for her medication would be something like 20k a year, add that to around 12k a year health insurance premiums and your talking 32k a year. At my current employer, I pay $3,300 a year for medical, dental and vision, and my out of pocket expenses are under $1,000 a year. That's a gook 25k delta there, something to seriously consider, despite the higher per hour rate.

Also consider if you don't work, you don't get paid, no vacation or sick days. While I don't make much more than you do salary wise, when you total up all my benefits, I'm pretty close to the 120k figure you mentioned, and job security to boot.

TechGromit

Christian. wrote: »

In my case, I work as a contractor and I rejected twice offers from my manager to become a full time employee. ... It's difficult to accept a pay cut when pretty much nothing is going to change ...

Two words, "Job Security". I personally know someone who was offered a full time federal government position, all he had to do was submit his application and the job was his. But he thought the same way, I'm making more staying a contractor. Five years later when there were budget cuts, he was gone. After a lengthy unemployment, he's making less than half of what he was making.

dhay13

well the contract job will add about $4000/year in parking and about another $$6000/year in fuel consumption, not to mention tires, brakes, oil changes, normal wear and tear, etc. on top of that i am guessing i will be paying an extra ~$600/month for healthcare. when its all said and done i don't think i would be much further ahead and likely less job security. the biggest problem i am facing is the lack of direct hire jobs around here. from what i have seen i would say less than 15-20% are direct hire. the rest are either contract to hire or straight contract. maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places but i mainly use indeed.

ITSpectre

Parking is a waste to pay... and the added fuel consumption will eat any excess money you get from the higher pay. I mean with full time jobs they can fire you no matter what, but at least you have some sort of job security and not to mention SALARY!!! When you work hourly... if you don't come to work you miss a days pay unless you use vacation time. But contractors do get vacation but think of the fact that you will know each pay period how much you will make... its the same no matter what... no more second guessing, moving money, waiting.... I love salary jobs.

Contract to hire is how some people get into full time jobs...I remember the good old days back in the early 2000s I would say between 2007-2010 you couldnt work a contract or a part time job... everything was full time and had good benefits and compensation.... after 2010 everything went to hell....

Chevel

TechGromit wrote: »

Two words, "Job Security". I personally know someone who was offered a full time federal government position, all he had to do was submit his application and the job was his. But he thought the same way, I'm making more staying a contractor. Five years later when there were budget cuts, he was gone. After a lengthy unemployment, he's making less than half of what he was making.

Yeap. Same thing. There were a few contracting people that were offered a full time job but turned it down because it didn't "pay enough." Now a few years later they are trying to get back in lol!

ITSpectre

Chevel wrote: »

Yeap. Same thing. There were a few contracting people that were offered a full time job but turned it down because it didn't "pay enough." Now a few years later they are trying to get back in lol!

I noticed that with the contracts you get a higher level of pay, and low benefits. So when a reg full time job comes your way you "turn it down" because you are used to the good pay but crappy benefits. Then when the contract ends you end up kicking yourself in the butt for not taking the full time job...

To the OP...

Run from contracts!!!! You have a full time job... try to move up where you are or move into a different full time job. You have already escaped contracting... Don't make the mistake of getting sucked back in... there are full time jobs out there, you just have to be patient. You have a job already so you are good...

Christian.

TechGromit wrote: »

Two words, "Job Security". I personally know someone who was offered a full time federal government position, all he had to do was submit his application and the job was his. But he thought the same way, I'm making more staying a contractor. Five years later when there were budget cuts, he was gone. After a lengthy unemployment, he's making less than half of what he was making.

I'm just saying there are many variables to consider, A isn't always better than B. I agree that in general, contractors have less job security than a full time employee, and benefits might end up being better than just getting more cash. I just don't think this applies to every case out there, there are situations when B might be better. Maybe this doesn't happen often, but it happens.

I'm saying this based on how things run where I work. Some contractor positions (like PMs) are not renewed when their project ends, they can get replaced for someone else or their work is added to someone else. Others have been working as a contractor full time for over 7 years because their role can't be removed and they can't be replaced easily. They have some job security because their situation is different. If they aren't renewed, the company might take a big hit. Anyway.. it's just another point of view.

clouder

I've been contracting for the better part of 15 years and have never been laid off, but YMMV. Part of it is knowing when it's a good time to leave. Never had an issue with poor benefits, thankfully. I've always had health, dental, vision, 401k, etc. The worst part is having to keep rolling 401ks haha. I agree with Christian, though. PMs generally do not carry over in my experience, though most of the worker bees often do.

Danielm7

ITSpectre wrote: »

I noticed that with the contracts you get a higher level of pay, and low benefits. So when a reg full time job comes your way you "turn it down" because you are used to the good pay but crappy benefits. Then when the contract ends you end up kicking yourself in the butt for not taking the full time job...

To the OP...

Run from contracts!!!! You have a full time job... try to move up where you are or move into a different full time job. You have already escaped contracting... Don't make the mistake of getting sucked back in... there are full time jobs out there, you just have to be patient. You have a job already so you are good...

You're obviously biased because of contracting that you've dealt with, as myself and two posts above mine, some are fine with contracting and prefer it. I was a contractor until recently, many of my coworkers are contractors and turned down full time pay. Depending on your state you can be fired at any time too, FTE != job security most of the time, it just means you can claim unemployment if you get laid off. Agree with the others, not every situation is the same. When I was just a contractor recently you never have to work over 40 hours a week, if you do then you can keep it as comp time to be used later, the salaried employees couldn't do that. Sure, they got vacation and such but it doesn't always balance out. As a real life example, 2 of my coworkers are in the same job role/level/title. One came in at <90K a year, FTE, gets decent benefits. The other is a contractor for $85 an hour. They offered him to go full time and he laughed, the benefits aren't worth THAT much, especially to him. Obviously an anecdote but just pointing out that every situation is different and for the OP it might be worth it for him to take a contract at the right company.

UncleB

I agree with Danielm7 here - contracting can be a great gig and if you are employable then there is rarely long to wait between roles.

I've had 4 weeks out of work in the last 4 years of contracting and used that time to catch up on training and go on holiday.

Unless you think you are going to NEED benefits, forget them. Bank as much as you can while you are young and healthy and the jobs are paying to dollar and keep your skills / certs up to date in your spare time.

Living in fear of the unknown (ie where you need benefits) like living afraid of taking risks and never enjoying the rewards these can bring. If you need stability, security and your hand held then stay a permie, but from recent experience I see a hell of a lot of permies sacked as companies move to the more flexible option of service provision companies or contractors.

Be unafraid, be capable, be flexible and you are very likely to be rich as well from contracting if you are smart.

thanks
Iain

Cisco Inferno

ITSpectre wrote: »

This is how contracting works... (im a contractor now)

The Employer bids on a contract and if they win then they need to fill positions. Just because they SAY its a 6 month to 12 month contract that does NOT mean they will keep you on that entire time. At the end of the 12 months they re bid on the contract and many people are laid off... (those that did not perform well, have the right certs etc..) You are good where you are honestly. Contracting is ok if you need a job, but I lost a lot of sleep worrying about if I was on the chopping block. Imagine going through that every year or every 6 months!?!?!
Contractors are not locked into anything until the contract ends. I would not do it and stay where you are, get more experience, and then find a full time job somewhere else....

UGH SO TRUE. and it looks bad on a resume. Ive explicitly written "contract" on such positions. such a waste of space and time.