IT jobs in UK/US/NZ

Not thinking of Aus?

Can't speak for the US but I know its quite hard to get a green card there.

No idea about NZ but most of them come to Aus.

UK is quite good at the moment, in London anyway. A lot of SA, NZ and AUS people working here in IT.

An MCSE will get you far but experience is very important if you want the good jobs and any finance or insurance experience can land you a really good paying job in those sectors in London.

UK is also quite generous with its working holiday visa which allows you to work for a year, stay in the country for 2 years and work doing whatever you want.

After a year if you want to work longer you can go for Highly Skilled Migrant Program which I am doing now. You can do it straight up before coming to UK but you need to have very high earnings.

Yup, Australia should also be on the list

As far as I know you don't need a working Visa if you go to Australia right? Works on a scoring system or something? Do you know if I will qualify with my qualifications?

imfrom51

Getting into the US is a near impossibility. Unless you have connections, a company that can prove that you could do a job that an american cannot do, or you get married, I don't think it's possible. I have had my green card for 10 years and still face the odd challange, especially since 9-11. I'm from the UK and I know that it's a lot easier to get into. Don't know the procedure though.

jim_stasz

imfrom51 wrote:

I have had my green card for 10 years and still face the odd challange, especially since 9-11.

Does that mean I can get my Canadian-born, Green Card Holding, Mother-in-law shipped back across the border?

Spoonroom wrote:

Yup, Australia should also be on the list

As far as I know you don't need a working Visa if you go to Australia right? Works on a scoring system or something? Do you know if I will qualify with my qualifications?

Yeah, you definitely need a working visa and its very strict, not as strict as US but very strict still.

Not sure on the points system for Aus but for UK it is based on a number of categories. You need a total of 65 points to qualify.

These include a degree, work experience, earnings. I am trying to see if my certs and Diploma qualify as anything or not. I'll let you know what I find out.

In the mean time do a goodle for HSMP in UK. You'll have to look into Aus yourself as I don't know much except that it is very strict.

I wish US would do the same as UK and let everyone work at least a year. Makes it easier to travel and would love to do a year in New York.

strauchr wrote:

UK is also quite generous with its working holiday visa which allows you to work for a year, stay in the country for 2 years and work doing whatever you want.
...
I wish US would do the same as UK and let everyone work at least a year. Makes it easier to travel and would love to do a year in New York.

That's pretty cool and would indeed be great if the US would have such an option. Makes me want to reconsider the UK. I wanted to move to the US about 3 years ago, and I'm still here.

imfrom51 wrote:

Getting into the US is a near impossibility. Unless you have connections, a company that can prove that you could do a job that an american cannot do, or you get married, I don't think it's possible.

The only option you didn't mention, is the DV lottery ("greencard lottery), which for some countries is a very good option. I've given up on winning that one though, it's once per year, and only a very tiny fraction goes to Dutch citizens. www.dvlottery.state.gov

@Spoonroom: There's a fairly large demand for skilled IT pros in most countries in Europe, including the Netherlands. You might want to consider that one too considering the language isnt' that different.

imfrom51 wrote:

Getting into the US is a near impossibility. Unless you have connections, a company that can prove that you could do a job that an american cannot do, or you get married, I don't think it's possible.

1. Come up through Mexico into Arizona (the loosest state border).
2. Apply for amnesty siting religious freedom, fear of oppression, fleeing terrorism, etc.
3. Get a job somewhere and doing anything.
4. Wait for the Bush foreign worker amnesty program to be enacted (it will happen before November 200

.
5. Enjoy the fast-track to American citizenship, or just stay a foreign national. Either way you'll never be deported.

The USA has the loosest borders and immigration rules of any country on Earth. The trick is not to play the immigration game by the printed rules. Twelve million illegal Mexican immigrants have figured out how to move, live, and work permanently in the USA, so why can't you all?

EdTheLad

Spoonroom wrote:

Yup, Australia should also be on the list

As far as I know you don't need a working Visa if you go to Australia right? Works on a scoring system or something? Do you know if I will qualify with my qualifications?

I'm abit of an expert on this as i'm in the process.There are different ways to to apply for a working visa in Austrailia i.e. having a sponsor or being completely independent.
I'm going as independent, which means i need 120 points.
There is alot to prove,first you must pass the Austrailian Computer Society skill asessment, 2 categories here A and B
Cat A, you need two have a degree in IT, they will assess your course content to see if its sufficient.
Cat B, you need to prove 6 years of IT work experience.With this u need lots of references and job descriptions for old bosses.

If you pass the ACS skills asessment you can then apply for the main visa.For this you must prove to have worked 3 of the last four years in the field tested by ACS.
Now once you prove all this with wage slips, references etc.You then have to supply them with loads of other stuff like birth certs,passport copies,character asessment,medical blah blah blah.Let just say i've lived this nightmare certifying documents and chasing people for the last 6 months but finally my application has been sent.
Oh i nearly forgot, the Microsoft and Cisco certs count for nothing with the ACS.

@Spoonroom: There's a fairly large demand for skilled IT pros in most countries in Europe, including the Netherlands. You might want to consider that one too considering the language isnt' that different.

How easy is it getting into the Netherlands?

If you can find a job here, which I think should be possible just based on your certs, the visa is basically not an issue. As long as you are a skilled professional filling a position that's hard to fill, which is the case with IT in Europe and they expect an dramatic increase in the demand over the next 5-10 years. Finding a house here is harder than getting a visa.

On a side-note, people from the EU, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, United States and several other countries don't need a work permit at all. But if you stay more than 6 months you have to apply for a permanent residence.

Do you know if South Africa is also one of those countries? Where can I find out about that?

And since your from the Netherlands and in IT, how about organizing a job for me there?

Webmaster wrote:

But if you stay more than 6 months you have to apply for a permanent residence.

Do you know what will happen to you in the USA if you don't apply for permanent residence (amnesty, asylum, etc.) after six months?

Ab-so-lute-ly no-thing.

There is almost no action taken to identify, locate, and deport immigrants with expired visas. Every other year you'll see a Walmart or two busted for hiring undocumented Eastern Europeans (never Mexicans, however), but that's only news fodder to make the politicians look like they are doing something in an election year. After the news story passes, no more busts, and it's not even clear if the undocumented workers were ever deported.

The USA immigration attorneys are so expensive, and the USA's immigration process is so bureaucratic, that most immigrant do not feel that they have the time, money, or patience to become citizens--or even documented workers--legally. This is too bad, as there's a lot of good people worldwide that could really do good things if only given an opportunity over here in the USA.

Do I sound a bit disapointed with the USA's current immigration policies?

kalebksp

Did you here about the senator that wants to have all 11 million illegal immigrants deported? It's not only stupid, but impossible.

geekie

Spoonroom wrote:

Yup, Australia should also be on the list

As far as I know you don't need a working Visa if you go to Australia right? Works on a scoring system or something? Do you know if I will qualify with my qualifications?

I got a years working visa and ended up staying in Sydney for three years. When my visa expired I had to apply for a four year business visa. I used a company called Lester Associates who basically did it all for me. Cost me $1200 and I had to get a criminal record check and have a chest xray (for Tuberculosis if I remember rightly) done. I also had to be earning over $40 an hour and could only work in IT and under the Lester Assoc umbrella so to speak.

The company I use were V good

http://www.lester.com.au/workingholidayinAust.html

Great place to work, would have stayed if it wasn't for my GF getting home sick!!

TeKniques

kalebksp wrote:

Did you here about the senator that wants to have all 11 million illegal immigrants deported? It's not only stupid, but impossible.

It's not stupid. And if it was put through then a majority of the people would leave on their own because there would be a crackdown on employers hiring them.

jdmurray wrote:

Do I sound a bit disapointed with the USA's current immigration policies?

You have every right to be! My wife and I went through the legalization process LEGALLY and let me tell you, it is hard and expensive. First comes the penalty fee that's roughly $1,000

Then, you have to pay about $200-$400 for every form to file with INS/Homeland Security which is about 15 forms. Then, you have to drive to your regional INS/Homeland Security office about 5 times a year and pay some more. And finally you have to wait about 3-5 years for your green card which expires after 10 years only to reapply after that. All in all it has cost us about $5,000 ... we have been married for 6 years and together for 8.

So when I see spineless Senators ready to put through an amnesty bill (because that is what it is), it is really a slap in a slap in my face and every other person who has done things the RIGHT way.

On the main point of this topic ... I have no idea what the procedures are for work visas in other countries, but best of luck to you!

jdmurray wrote:

Webmaster wrote:

But if you stay more than 6 months you have to apply for a permanent residence.

Do you know what will happen to you in the USA if you don't apply for permanent residence (amnesty, asylum, etc.) after six months?

Ab-so-lute-ly no-thing.

There is almost no action taken to identify, locate, and deport immigrants with expired visas. Every other year you'll see a Walmart or two busted for hiring undocumented Eastern Europeans (never Mexicans, however), but that's only news fodder to make the politicians look like they are doing something in an election year. After the news story passes, no more busts, and it's not even clear if the undocumented workers were ever deported.

The USA immigration attorneys are so expensive, and the USA's immigration process is so bureaucratic, that most immigrant do not feel that they have the time, money, or patience to become citizens--or even documented workers--legally. This is too bad, as there's a lot of good people worldwide that could really do good things if only given an opportunity over here in the USA.

Do I sound a bit disapointed with the USA's current immigration policies?

My sentiments exactly. I think it would really open the US to the world and would open more doors for US workers wanting to work in other countries for short periods of time.

It servers the dual purpose of bringing in new and fresh ways of doing things and also taking new experiences and ideas home.

As long as there are measures put in place so that local workers aren't disadvantaged it would work very well.

webleech wrote:

Spoonroom wrote:

Yup, Australia should also be on the list

As far as I know you don't need a working Visa if you go to Australia right? Works on a scoring system or something? Do you know if I will qualify with my qualifications?

I got a years working visa and ended up staying in Sydney for three years. When my visa expired I had to apply for a four year business visa. I used a company called Lester Associates who basically did it all for me. Cost me $1200 and I had to get a criminal record check and have a chest xray (for Tuberculosis if I remember rightly) done. I also had to be earning over $40 an hour and could only work in IT and under the Lester Assoc umbrella so to speak.

The company I use were V good

http://www.lester.com.au/workingholidayinAust.html

Great place to work, would have stayed if it wasn't for my GF getting home sick!!

Umbrella companies are a way to go, be cautious as some can take you for a ride. And Sydney is the best place for IT work in Australia.

Webmaster wrote:

If you can find a job here, which I think should be possible just based on your certs, the visa is basically not an issue. As long as you are a skilled professional filling a position that's hard to fill, which is the case with IT in Europe and they expect an dramatic increase in the demand over the next 5-10 years. Finding a house here is harder than getting a visa.

On a side-note, people from the EU, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, United States and several other countries don't need a work permit at all. But if you stay more than 6 months you have to apply for a permanent residence.

Wheres the best place to find work in Netherlands. I am very interested in the finance sector, which is normally where the biggest and best city for IT jobs are anyway.

strauchr wrote:

Wheres the best place to find work in Netherlands. I am very interested in the finance sector, which is normally where the biggest and best city for IT jobs are anyway.

That would be 'the Randstad', which is basically the area between and including our three largest cities Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague. It's pretty much the IT centre of the EU, and Amsterdam has the largest internet exchange point in the world (Amsterdam Internet Exchange (AMS-IX)). But The Netherlands is only about 200 by 250 miles, so everything is nearby.

kalebksp wrote:

Did you here about the senator that wants to have all 11 million illegal immigrants deported? It's not only stupid, but impossible.

Well, this is not exactly correct. The idea is that each immigrant would need to return to their country of origin to apply for a legal immigration visa. An exception would be made for people who have fled terrorism, persecution, etc.

It is generally agreed that this is an impractical thing to require, but politicians need to say something to the news cameras.

Webmaster wrote:

strauchr wrote:

Wheres the best place to find work in Netherlands. I am very interested in the finance sector, which is normally where the biggest and best city for IT jobs are anyway.

That would be 'the Randstad', which is basically the area between and including our three largest cities Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague. It's pretty much the IT centre of the EU, and Amsterdam has the largest internet exchange point in the world (Amsterdam Internet Exchange (AMS-IX)). But The Netherlands is only about 200 by 250 miles, so everything is nearby.

Well thats something I didn't know. I will have to look into this seriously. I have already commited to doing a project in London which will finish middle of next year but after that will need a change.

I liked Amterdam, had a lot of fun there

I have yet to see the rest of The Netherlands which is one of my many travel plans.

A couple of questions, migh help spoonroom as well.

Whats a good website to look for jobs

Whats a good site for legal work permits or check what I need

Do you have to speak Dutch or will English suffice?

kalebksp

@TeKniques: Everyone has their own views, didn't mean to offend yours.

@jdmurray: Yeah, I was just repeating something I heard on some show, I probably shouldn't do that, they rarely cover anything completely.

TeKniques wrote:

Then, you have to pay about $200-$400 for every form to file with INS/Homeland Security which is about 15 forms. Then, you have to drive to your regional INS/Homeland Security office about 5 times a year and pay some more. And finally you have to wait about 3-5 years for your green card which expires after 10 years only to reapply after that. All in all it has cost us about $5,000 ...

It's the immigration attorneys that really clean up over here. I would says that it's nearly hopeless to legally immigrate to the USA without long-term and expensive legal assistance--on top of the $$$$ the government wants. My hats off to you doing it the legal way.

TeKniques wrote:

So when I see spineless Senators ready to put through an amnesty bill (because that is what it is), it is really a slap in a slap in my face and every other person who has done things the RIGHT way.

The crazy thing is that this is being done not for the sake of ALL immigrants in the USA, but only for the Mexican nationals because of some business deal that the Bush administration has with the government of Mexico. The lame reason given is that "Mexicans will do jobs that no Americans will do." But the Mexicans come over here and instead want the good $20/hr construction jobs and not the crappy $8/hr farm labor jobs, and I don't blame them at all.

jdmurray wrote:

Webmaster wrote:

But if you stay more than 6 months you have to apply for a permanent residence.

Do you know what will happen to you in the USA if you don't apply for permanent residence (amnesty, asylum, etc.) after six months?

Ab-so-lute-ly no-thing.

I should have added that if you apply for the permanent residence, while you have a job (which you need to get the work-permit in the first place), it will be issued, in contrary to being illegal (which is worse enough by itself), and not getting a SSN, etc.etc.
I've talked to dozens of people regarding this issue, including someone who's job was getting foreign IT workers to the US, and even though they mentioned 'just going' as an option, they also warned that after the temp visa expired (which is after 90 days and not 6 months), and you get pulled over for a minor traffic violation or something similar, they will put you back on the plane.

Quite frankly it's not an option for me to go illegal. Apart from taking my own job and company, I don't want to be illegal. I rather be welcomed in Spain or the UK, than unwanted in the US. Another interesting comparisson, if you have 20-25K euros and want to start your own company here and live here you can, for the US it takes an investement of $500K. (something I ran into cause I was under the false impressions things would be easier for me since I would be taking my own company and job).

I would says that it's nearly hopeless to legally immigrate to the USA without long-term and expensive legal assistance--on top of the $$$$ the government wants.

I agree, well apart from the DV lottery earlier, and even if you win that one it doesn't actually mean you get a greencard, just the interview at the embassy. You'd still need a fair amount of cash, education etc.etc. All logical of course.

TeKniques

kalebksp wrote:

@TeKniques: Everyone has their own views, didn't mean to offend yours.

You did not offend me, I'm just saying that people who are directly involved with immigration and it's legal ramifications see it in a different light then others. Trust me, if the border was sealed and employers were punished severely the vast majority of people would leave on their own.

jdmurray wrote:

It's the immigration attorneys that really clean up over here. I would says that it's nearly hopeless to legally immigrate to the USA without long-term and expensive legal assistance--on top of the $$$$ the government wants. My hats off to you doing it the legal way.

Thanks, it was hard work. We did have an attorney for the initial filing papers in Portland, OR. After the processing went through that was it, we were on our own. And I agree, it's all about The bottom line to a lot of these attorneys.

jdmurray wrote:

The crazy thing is that this is being done not for the sake of ALL immigrants in the USA, but only for the Mexican nationals because of some business deal that the Bush administration has with the government of Mexico. The lame reason given is that "Mexicans will do jobs that no Americans will do." But the Mexicans come over here and instead want the good $20/hr construction jobs and not the crappy $8/hr farm labor jobs, and I don't blame them at all.

Yep, agree with everything you said 100%. Bush is really **** me off about this. I am very disappointed in the domestic management of the US. The major concern for me is the HUGE security risk being implemented at the border. It's either a war on terror or it isn't, and that's really the bottom line for me. If I was a terrorist the southern border is where I would be smuggled in and everyone knows it. I'm pretty sure that terrorists are laughing at US policies and how politically correct this country has become.

kalebksp

TeKniques wrote:

You did not offend me, I'm just saying that people who are directly involved with immigration and it's legal ramifications see it in a different light then others. Trust me, if the border was sealed and employers were punished severely the vast majority of people would leave on their own.

Okay, but that's different than trying to find 11 million illegal immigrants. I suppose I probably don't see immigration the same way as people that live near the border, or at least nearer to the border than Alaska.

strauchr wrote:

I liked Amterdam, had a lot of fun there I have yet to see the rest of The Netherlands which is one of my many travel plans.

It is impossible not to have fun in Amsterdam. Actually, I'll be meeting Jason Sprague from www.mcmcse.com, again in a two weeks in Amsterdam. This year I'm going to show him some of the Netherlands outside Amsterdam, cause Amsterdam is hardly The Netherlands any more. Not referring to the many immigrants, nor to the fact that the most common man's name is Mohammed (used to be 'Jan' twenty years ago

), but Amsterdam is really just a tourist attraction. Apart from the old architecture and the paintings in the museums it doesn't represent The Netherlands very well.

A couple of questions, migh help spoonroom as well.

Whats a good website to look for jobs

Whats a good site for legal work permits or check what I need

Do you have to speak Dutch or will English suffice?

For spoonroom there hardly is a language barrier because south-african includes a lot of Dutch words. Some mean something different by now, or are proncounced differently, but if you speak one, you can understand the other. However, anyone with an education here speaks English since we got it in school starting at an age of 8-10. Movies and other US and UK television is not translated but subtitled which means looking at English CBTs everyday.

Dutch people speak at the very least 2 or 3 languages, which almost always includes English, certainly in IT as well as finance. Has a lot to do with the small size of The Netherlands (I.e. I'm about 40 miles from Germany.), we mostly do business internationally, and have been doing so for hundreds of years. Of the hundreds of Windows servers I managed, configured, installed, replaced, not even single percent runs the Dutch version of Windows (which is almost just as funny as the German version, ie. "Gebruikersbeheerder" in Dutch, Benutzer Manager in German, User Manager in English). Even I don't recognize most of the buttons and options in Dutch windows version just based on the words. Anyway, I really don't think language is an issue. Unlike many other Europeans, Dutch people don't mind adapting to the 'guest's' language at all, often on the contrary. Many managers already talk a mix of English an Dutch. Peptalks are really funnny here, they say things like "that's just not done here', and "over die meeting laatsten", where 'meeting' is the only English word. It kills me when they do that. Learning Dutch however is something I would really not waste an effort on. Apart from a couple of Asian languages, it's considered the most difficult language to well.

www.workpermit.com is something I stumbled on recently, but I suggest checking the embassy sites instead. The information may be a bit dry, but at least it's accurate.

As for job sites, you could try monsterboard.com or even .nl. I haven't looked at the job ads for a couple of months, but there has always been a great demand for people who speak English. Many large IT companies here do business in other countries of Europe and demands fluent English.

If you are seriously interested, I'd be happy to get my knowledge about the Dutch IT market up-to-date and provide you with some decent information and recommedations for companies. A lot of companies here outsource their IT work, to local IT service providers that is, and those companies are always looking for jobs.

And if you know SAP, none if it all matters.

On a side note for the others in this topic: please mind that this topic doesn't become 'too' political and stays on the topic of IT workers wanted to work abroad.

Webmaster wrote:

Learning Dutch however is something I would really not waste an effort on. Apart from a couple of Asian languages, it's considered the most difficult language to well.

I've heard that Icelandic is so difficult as to be practically impossible for non-natives to learn fluently. I've found lots of language courses for Dutch, but few for Icelandic. I suppose that's because Reykjavík is no Amsterdam.

Anybody know the immigration laws for Iceland with regards to technical people? I like volcanoes. I also hear that they are looking for a new military.

I've heard that Icelandic is so difficult as to be practically impossible for non-natives to learn fluently.

Well, you can leave out the practically when it comes to Dutch. I'm sure it differs per person, and per availability of online language courses

, but also a lot on your native language (the way you use your tongue to be exact), but I also never heard a foreigner speak Dutch fluently, and writing it correctly is impossible even for Dutch folks.

It's also something that they teach us in school (to make us feel less bad about not getting our own language) and is an known issue here. Even famous folks like Famke Jansen and other Dutch actors who moved to the US years ago are simply no longer to speak Dutch fluently. Even people who go on vacation for just a couple of weeks need days to weeks to get rid of the obvious accent. The cause is mainly that in English letters are pronounced much softer and it flows better.

We had an exchange student from Island back in school for 3 or 4 months. Though the entire class was eager to pick up some Islandic words, I never heard him say a Dutch word other than the ones that either looked like English (like 'Hallo' 'ja'/'nee'), or allowed him to taunt people back home in Dutch

. We also had a show last week on TV, about Holland in Michigan US, they asked where the country Holland was and most people pointed out either Island or Denmark.

We have a 'nationaal dictee' every year, for Dutch and Flamish (northern-Belgium basically) people. Even journalists etc make plenty of mistakes. On a single page of dictated text, I made about 46 mistakes, which was 4 above average (yeah I too suck at Dutch, it's even worse than my English

). Apart from complicated grammar and different spellings of the same word, we have a lot of imported words, which are sometimes. Actually this reminds me of something I wrote to someone else who gave up on learning Dutch:

""""
Even if you get the words right, putting them in the correct order is just madness. And we have this nasty habit of putting words together. Like ‘watersnoodramp’ [edit: not entirely but basically means water emergency distaster] that’s three words! Every year they introduce new words in ‘the’ Dutch dictionaries, while they are actually just a combination of already existing, and very obvious words. Here’s a good example, this was actually on the news (yeah, they have to tell us on the news which new words were introduced...): “antiamerikaans” We already had anti, and already had amerikaans (American), but because the term “antiamerikaans” has been mentioned so often in the news and newspapers etc, it’s now an official word. How *peep*up is that!? Oh, and here’s another really stupid one: “googelen” yes, I spelled that right, as in searching with google.com. Notice how they switched the “e” and the “l” in google. It gets even worse. The first half “goog” is pronounced in English, so not with our hard “g”. So if someone tries to learn Dutch, they think it would be pronounced with the typical Dutch hard “g” and the “oo” is pronounced as “oa” in English, as in “boat”. But, our word “goochelen” (basically means performing magic) is pronounced that way already. I guess you understand now why I always used English certification study material, prefer English software, and write in English.

Not many people outside the Netherlands try to learn Dutch, and that’s probably another reason why most Dutch people speak foreign languages. Plus half of ‘m think we speak German, so we had to learn that too.

"""
To prevent any misunderstandings, the Dutch version of anti-american does not relate to the feeling of most Dutch people. American workers are very welcome here. Just keep in mind that we don't have the 'personal space' concept (i.e. people bump into you anywhere) and everyone stares at everyone. On a positive note, I haven't seen anyone, but tourists, in wooden shoes for decades. Did I mentioned that The Netherlands is one of the most crowded countries in the world? The weather is slightly better than the UK (a bit less rainy), but it's only really sunny and warm for 2 months and some sporadic weeks per year.

There is one part of The Netherlands where the weather is good all year through: the Dutch Antillian. While I'm typing it even I realize the reputation of those island have gone down the drain. Such as shame...

Anybody know the immigration laws for Iceland with regards to technical people? I like volcanoes.

I don't know about Iceland in particular, both the scandinavian countries are almost impossible to get into. The primary problem there is the language. If you don't speak it practically fluently, it's very hard to get a job there, and even if you do, you'll always be 'the foreigner'. It could very well be they are more relaxed towards skilled IT pros 'if' they really need them. I remember the exchange student was a very friendly and easygoing fellow. A bit less hasty than Dutch people. They keep their head cool in the northern European countries.