Just an observation from my 10+ year in IT (certification related)

DatabaseHead

On this forum you see people with multiple certifications, sometimes 20+. Heck even myself I have 10 or so. However, when I am working either as a FTE or contractor I rarely meet people with certifications. Maybe the best of the best come here to post, I am not sure.

I remember a while back at work our network architect was going to the community college to get his CCNP, had his CCNA. When he finally got it, it was a BIG DEAL. On here it seems like if you get it so what the big one is the CCIE. I just don't see that being the case real world. Of course I am referring to ~10 total environments, maybe it's just the luck of the draw.

What I am trying to say is the expectations on here and from what I have seen real world carry a large delta. Does reality fall somewhere in the middle?

This is not an attack on certifications, it's an observation I want to make that clear.

jelevated

Nah, IMO we're freaks of nature. Certifications are challenging for many of us on a personal level. This isn't pervasive in the enterprise world, hell I know many, many of my coworkers think certification is a straight up cash grab by the vendor instead of actually learning something new, something that can enhance their own abilities to do the job better.

I've seen alot of resumes and certification despite what you see here, certification is still rare because honestly they are tough to get and tough to maintain. I'd say that if of the requested certification on the Job posting., less than 5% had the actual bonified certificate compared to everyone who didn't or tried to fudge it in some way " i.e. "CISSP Exam Scheduled" or something equally ridiculous. If you have certifications+experience+education you are still ahead of the competition and will be for some time.

Rave18

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Maybe the best of the best come here to post

seems to be the case

Iristheangel

I don't know what industry, location, part of IT, etc you have worked in before. If I run into sys admins or network engineers, they usually have a few lower level ones at least. If I run into a programming or devops guy, I don't see as many. Some people also don't brag about them or mention them at work and you may not know. The answer is that it depends.

A lot of folks out there in the field also don't have a passion for this stuff or are very comfortable with where they're at. It's not a judgment but there's a reason why the industry as a whole is lacking senior talent and even if you hire someone and try to train them from the ground up, there's no saying they'll be willing to learn or study in their free time.

LeBroke

A lot of IT people see certifications as basically useless. I.e. if you already know something, why get the certificate? And if you don't go something, why not go and study it to the point that you do know it? Most people I see with higher-end certs in real life either got them to specifically get a better job they may not qualify yet just based on their experience, or people with very little experience getting an alphabet soup to try and make themselves more marketable.

They're also less in-demand in corporate IT compared to service providers. And since I'm in Canada, DoD rules don't apply.

LittleBIT

I worked at an MSP where certs were laughed at. Experience was everything. However when push came to shove, and I was the only one with certs and wanted a better salary, I had a leg up. I even helped the company get MS Silver partner. When I searched for better employment, among other MSPs, Experience again trumped certs. I really think it has to do with industry. In the Govt sector, certs are everything. Private, not so much, and probably even less so in Corporate. Just my 2c

Danielm7

I've worked at a few places where no one really cared about them. When you mention it to some people they'll say they had an MSCA or or CCNA but they let it expire years ago, not a lot of drive for new ones and updating. My director is into them as he has a few himself, one coworker talks about them a lot but never actually takes any exams. I almost never bump into people who are as cert-focused as the gang here. But, again, it's "techexams" so our discussion tends to skew more than way than you would in the average workday.

TheFORCE

In the places i've worked, people had mixed feelings and it really doesnt depend on the company or the industry but more on who is in charge and if they themselves believe in the certs. My first company, few people had certs but being in the company for many years, many people didnt maintain them but they did maintain the knowledge. I still keep an eye on that company and now it seems that something has changed and a lot of their job postings require certs when before certs were not even mentioned.

My other company, if you were studying for certs or talking about certs, no one cared or they would laugh about the value of them, still they would pay for it if you passed.

My other company, certs were a big thing because my manager was pro cert, and he had a lot of the ISACA certs and CISSP himself so he would push everyone else to take them and have the company pay for them.

My current company is more into sending people for training and letting you decide if you want to go a certify, but certs are mentioned when looking at resumes and doing interviews.

So i think it depends on the management. If i ever become a manager, i'll definetly look for experience and certs and will push for certs to be kept up to date.

networker050184

I've definitely worked with far more people that are not certified. The people that are getting their certs are usually the more driven and detail oriented of the bunch though. At least the ones really learning the material anyway.

joelsfood

There is always some variation in whether people pursue certifications or not, and any particular company will have a different environment that encourages (or discourages) the pursuit of ongoing education and certification.

That being said, it's only logical that a forum dedicated to certifications and their pursuit would have a higher percentage of people with certifications,a nd higher certifications. If it didn't, there'd be something wrong with the site.

volfkhat

LittleBIT wrote: »

I worked at an MSP where certs were laughed at. Experience was everything. However when push came to shove, and I was the only one with certs and wanted a better salary, I had a leg up. I even helped the company get MS Silver partner. When I searched for better employment, among other MSPs, Experience again trumped certs. I really think it has to do with industry. In the Govt sector, certs are everything. Private, not so much, and probably even less so in Corporate. Just my 2c

Great Post. Great Insight.

Certs have value... if your Employer thinks they have value.
That's about it.

The place i'm currently at.. PAYS us for getting certs (by HOOK, or by CROOK).
All they care about are the partner-level discounts.
:]

As for me,
i have over a dozen certs (only 8 are currently active).
So... Why do i have them?

Peace of Mind.
Just in case i need to leave my current situation.
Just in case my employer cuts Heads and tries to **** the Overflow onto me.
Just in case my employer wants me to show the "new guy" how to do my job (you get the picture)

The IT industry was bastardized when NAFTA came along (along with many others).
Loyalty went Out the Window (or more appropriately, across the ocean).
Employees were turned into line items.
Humanity was replaced with Algorithms.

What has been the Result:
an industry flooded by Paper Tigers.

Whelp... If you can't beat them... then Join them :]

gespenstern

Agreed with volfkhat.

For me getting certified is a career risk management strategy. I'm the only source of income for my family and I tend to move a lot higher and higher so connections and networking don't work for me for obvious reasons.

I HAVE to get employment quickly to stay afloat so I have to invest in everything that helps.

LittleBIT

volfkhat wrote: »

Great Post. Great Insight.

Certs have value... if your Employer thinks they have value.
That's about it.

The place i'm currently at.. PAYS us for getting certs (by HOOK, or by CROOK).
All they care about are the partner-level discounts.
:]

As for me,
i have over a dozen certs (only 8 are currently active).
So... Why do i have them?

Peace of Mind.
Just in case i need to leave my current situation.
Just in case my employer cuts Heads and tries to **** the Overflow onto me.
Just in case my employer wants me to show the "new guy" how to do my job (you get the picture)

The IT industry was bastardized when NAFTA came along (along with many others).
Loyalty went Out the Window (or more appropriately, across the ocean).
Employees were turned into line items.
Humanity was replaced with Algorithms.

What has been the Result:
an industry flooded by Paper Tigers.

Whelp... If you can't beat them... then Join them :]

This is by far the best reply on the topic of "do certs matter" haha

mbarrett

volfkhat wrote: »

The IT industry was bastardized when NAFTA came along (along with many others).

What does NAFTA have to do with anything? Please elaborate. I've been in the IT field for a long time, I have personally never seen or heard anyone in IT with NAFTA related issues.

gespenstern

mbarrett wrote: »

What does NAFTA have to do with anything? Please elaborate.

Why not? Essentially it is an outsourcing agreement. Therefore, some will put their manufacturing to, say, Mexico. Therefore, at least helpdesk personnel will be hired there as well at least in some cases. The same story with India and China.

Once the higher ups realize that while the quality of service deteriorates because of outsourcing, the savings are more important and it is ~10 times lower salaries there for the same type of work (for India) they start outsourcing datacenter jobs there as well.

What else do you need?

fullcrowmoon

I have my certs because work wanted me to get them, and I'm in Corporate America. I will say that when we're interviewing, if an individual has something like 20 gazillion certifications that makes us suspicious. Two to four seems to be about the right number.

volfkhat

mbarrett wrote: »

What does NAFTA have to do with anything? Please elaborate. I've been in the IT field for a long time, I have personally never seen or heard anyone in IT with NAFTA related issues.

gespenstern wrote: »

Why not? Essentially it is an outsourcing agreement. Therefore, some will put their manufacturing to, say, Mexico. Therefore, at least helpdesk personnel will be hired there as well at least in some cases. The same story with India and China.

Once the higher ups realize that while the quality of service deteriorates because of outsourcing, the savings are more important and it is ~10 times lower salaries there for the same type of work (for India) they start outsourcing datacenter jobs there as well.

Meh.
Obviously NAFTA only applies to North America.

But not to get too bogged down.... i'm mainly referring to the culture.

The culture of shipping jobs out of the country.
The culture of placing Profit over People.
The culture of destroying the middle-class.

NAFTA didn't send my job to Bangalore... but the culture did.

Agree... Disagree, no big deal.

My overall point was that the system (in this country) is stacked against you.
As a result, you gotta do what you gotta do to get by.

mbarrett

gespenstern wrote: »

Essentially it is an outsourcing agreement.

...the quality of service deteriorates because of outsourcing

Can you point to one single instance where this is true in the real world for IT? Or are you just speculating?

mzx380

I have not worked with many certified IT pros during my career, but I honestly feel that any return on investment no matter how nominal is better than no return at all especially when you consider the state of the job market in the last few years.

fullcrowmoon

mbarrett wrote: »

Can you point to one single instance where this is true in the real world for IT? Or are you just speculating?

You asked my question for me.

paul78

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Does reality fall somewhere in the middle?

Probably depends on the person, industry, role, and the type of businesses you worked at... For me, I rarely run into anyone who claims to have a certification. It's usually not a discussion point and rarely comes up.

Of the people that I have discussed them - some like myself have taken it initially from a curiosity point of view. Several have taken them as way of doing continuing education. And a handful - have taken it just to have the checkmark.

Clm

I have seen that a lot on the 12 person Security engineering team im on where everyone has at least 5+ years experience only 3 of us have certs. And the three of us are the youngest ones. My last company the team of cyber security specialist i was on i was the only one certified with anything. I have gotten into it with people because they down play certs and try to write them off because they lack them.

Mike-Mike

I have always had more certs than anyone I worked with. I have worked with lots of people who do not want certifications... i also have worked with lots of people who complain they don't get paid well, and dont get respect from management.

Clm

Mike-Mike wrote: »

i also have worked with lots of people who complain they don't get paid well, and don't get respect from management.

Me being one of the only was with certs my last two position I have noticed I Have always been the highest paid in my particular role.

ThePuterGeek

I agree I see so many people with the lack of passion for what they do. I love what I do! I just shake my head and say "how could you not love this stuff?"

LaSeeno

Clm wrote: »

I have gotten into it with people because they down play certs and try to write them off because they lack them.

My last job the two other guys touted they didn't need certs or a degree. Guess who left for a 33% raise?

Fulcrum45

I've always liked certification because if nothing else, they are a structured and guided path for learning something new or filling in the gaps for something you already know.

mbarrett

fullcrowmoon wrote: »

I will say that when we're interviewing, if an individual has something like 20 gazillion certifications that makes us suspicious. Two to four seems to be about the right number.

Agreed - I have achieved a few certs that I let expire because the world (and my career) moves on. I only list ones that are active & relevant to my career in the present. If somebody submits a resume with 15 certs on it, they are either a genius who can get a job with NASA or they have a lot of stuff that isn't relevant to the job & their recent work history. It's usually easy to tell from their work experience what they're actually good at...

LaSeeno

mbarrett wrote: »

Agreed - I have achieved a few certs that I let expire because the world (and my career) moves on. I only list ones that are active & relevant to my career in the present. If somebody submits a resume with 15 certs on it, they are either a genius who can get a job with NASA or they have a lot of stuff that isn't relevant to the job & their recent work history. It's usually easy to tell from their work experience what they're actually good at...

My current employer didn't care about a particular certs status; just wanted to make sure I had acquired it at some point.

cowill

I think it depends on where you are.

When i was DoD, you HAD to have them. However, not many people bragged or boasted. But you had to have them...Non-negotiable.


When i was in the corporate environment, nobody cared. Certs are foriegn and often ignored.

Iristheangel

Even if you don't see them as much in the environments you work it doesn't mean they don't offer value. I think on an average, most people don't strive to better themselves or grow their skills once they get to an comfortable point. That's why you see guys working at helpdesk for 10+ years or others who never got promoted once they got that sys admin job. Even if every employer in the entire world were to say that they didn't care what certification a candidate holds, I would still go after certifications that help deepen or expand my skills. Sometimes it's all in the "journey." For me, it provides a structured curriculum of what to study. Sure, you can say "Well I studied it and I know it so I don't need to get a certification to prove it." That's fine but if you really learned XYZ topic, it's worth throwing a little money into it to prove to yourself by passing a test and it certainly won't hurt your career to have the piece of paper or adding it to your resume.

Another useful component to certs is that by having a curriculm, you're pushed to learn things that aren't in your day-to-day tasks or outside of your comfort zone. I've met architects, senior engineers, and admins who've been in the field longer than I who didn't know what EEM scripts or private VLANs were, didn't know how to filter routes or even why to filter routes, or even how to configure OSPF - all because it never fell into their day-to-day duties or designs over 10+ years and therefore these were things they were never exposed to. Ironically, if they knew about filtering routes or how to prevent routing loops, they could have spared themselves some pain they were experiencing or if they knew about private VLANs, they could have trimmed some of the issues they were having in their environment. These are the kind of things they'd be learning in a CCNP book.

I know everyone here says experience is king - it's definitely a factor - but I've had enough experiences like the above or interviews where people with 10+ years of experience couldn't tell me their favorite routing protocol or didn't know what IPSec was that I now take experience with a grain of salt. Yes, it's great if they have experience but "10 years as a senior network engineer" might not mean the same to you as it does with me.