Designing networks on paper. Does it count as experience ?

egrizzlyegrizzly B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+Member Posts: 515 ■■■■■□□□□□
Question for hiring managers or network engineer team leads

If you design a standard WAN network for instance, for a company of 1000 users. The network incorporates the use of 10 routers, 20 switches, 2 firewalls, and OSPF as the routing protocol, then you publish it online so people can view, and the network can be replicated and verified in a simulator (e.g. GNS3). Can you use it as experience even though it was not done in a production environment ( or in a role as a network engineer).
B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+

Comments

  • NetworkNewbNetworkNewb Member Posts: 3,298 ■■■■■■■■■□
    It counts as you playing around in a lab at home to understand how things might work. It counts as that kind of experience. icon_thumright.gif I think you might get some laughs trying to pass that off as real experience though.
  • egrizzlyegrizzly B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+ Member Posts: 515 ■■■■■□□□□□
    It counts as you playing around in a lab at home to understand how things might work. It counts as that kind of experience. icon_thumright.gif I think you might get some laughs trying to pass that off as real experience though.

    do you think it's a legitimate thing to put in a resume ?
    B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+
  • stryder144stryder144 Senior Member Member Posts: 1,684 ■■■■■■■■□□
    I would put it on LinkedIn but would not put it on a resume. If you do put it on your resume, put it under a header marked PROJECTS and put a short description and a link to the blog or wherever you posted it online.
    The easiest thing to be in the world is you. The most difficult thing to be is what other people want you to be. Don't let them put you in that position. ~ Leo Buscaglia

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  • NetworkingStudentNetworkingStudent Member Posts: 1,407 ■■■■■■■■□□
    egrizzly wrote: »
    Question for hiring managers or network engineer team leads

    If you design a standard WAN network for instance, for a company of 1000 users. The network incorporates the use of 10 routers, 20 switches, 2 firewalls, and OSPF as the routing protocol, then you publish it online so people can view, and the network can be replicated and verified in a simulator (e.g. GNS3). Can you use it as experience even though it was not done in a production environment ( or in a role as a network engineer).

    If you interview for a networking position, I would mention it in the interview.

    Can you print the design out and bring it to an interview?
    When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened."

    --Alexander Graham Bell,
    American inventor
  • ande0255ande0255 Banned Posts: 1,178
    Interviewers are interested in what you can do for their networks, you may need to bring paper to an interview to draw topologies to answer technical questions, but bringing in just drawings of a few circles with squares connecting them would make me think you are bat **** insane.

    Though even if you can't draw out a topology to necessarily answer their question correctly, the interviewer may be impressed that you took the time to draw up a logical topology on paper to try thinking through the problem, even if you have no idea how to answer it icon_thumright.gif
  • networker050184networker050184 Mod Posts: 11,962 Mod
    I wouldn't try to pass that off as actual experience. It's more of an academic thing if it's never actually been implemented and gone through the rigner.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
  • adam220891adam220891 Member Posts: 164 ■■■□□□□□□□
    You have a CCNP without job experience?
  • MontagueVandervortMontagueVandervort Senior Member Member Posts: 399 ■■■■■□□□□□
    Experience, as in experience section of a resume? Whoa, I wouldn't think so. That's more like something you do for fun or for study practice. I guess you could bring it up in an interview, if the situation was right?
  • Node ManNode Man Member Posts: 668 ■■■□□□□□□□
    Sorry to disagree. IMO - Paper may not look good, but I think creating diagrams in Visio should count. I see people often getting tasked with documenting networks before they are allowed to start making changes. Diagramming = new guy grunt work.

    Bullet point = "Capable network documentation creator"
  • blatiniblatini Member Posts: 285
    That would look really bad.

    If you had done this in GNS3/VIRL it would count as independent learning and look much better. Offer to email the zip file or bring a thumb drive.

    Experience is doing this in a live environment where if you do **** up your entire network goes down and you might lose your job.

    Edit - I shouldn't say really bad. It just would be weird and I don't think it would benefit you.
  • egrizzlyegrizzly B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+ Member Posts: 515 ■■■■■□□□□□
    I wouldn't try to pass that off as actual experience. It's more of an academic thing if it's never actually been implemented and gone through the rigner.

    The networks implemented at work they always draw it out on Visio and print it for our meetings. How come that one counts as experience yet if I do the exact same without actually being at work it doesn't count as experience
    B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+
  • kye.daveykye.davey Member Posts: 27 ■■■□□□□□□□
    egrizzly wrote: »
    The networks implemented at work they always draw it out on Visio and print it for our meetings. How come that one counts as experience yet if I do the exact same without actually being at work it doesn't count as experience

    I think you have answered that question yourself, at work this is not just "your design" but depicts something that has been implemented. A network that was not only designed, but also seen as a valuable investment for the business. However, I do agree that the work you are going through at home is definitely considered "experience" and displays a lot of motivation for professional development. This is something that I don't see place for on a Resume but something I believe is more likely to come across in the interviewing stage.
  • hurricane1091hurricane1091 Member Posts: 919 ■■■■□□□□□□
    There's a fundamental difference here.

    I re-designed a DMVPN environment, but never implemented it (it was on the agenda but I quit before I got around to it). I had an APPROVED proof of concept by my boss, and it was 100% functional and working.

    Drawing something and doing nothing with it doesn't accomplish much at all.
  • Legacy UserLegacy User Unregistered / Not Logged In Posts: 0 ■□□□□□□□□□
    I'll say IMHO that the difference from designing a network at home for conceptual purpose versus one for work is the reason why you designed it. Designs just don't get made just because. A design is usually created for some sort of enhancement and the reason could be to improve high availability, performance of network resources/applications, security, etc. For example coming up with a design on how "placing a firewall at the edge of every remote site to harden security" at home sounds great but how will it effect the applications passing through it? Will it effect multicast? Is the application delay sensitive that stateful packet inspections could cause tcp connection resets which causes disconnects at the client side.
  • NetworkNewbNetworkNewb Member Posts: 3,298 ■■■■■■■■■□
    Node Man wrote: »
    Sorry to disagree. IMO - Paper may not look good, but I think creating diagrams in Visio should count. I see people often getting tasked with documenting networks before they are allowed to start making changes. Diagramming = new guy grunt work.

    Bullet point = "Capable network documentation creator"

    So the dishwasher at the restaurant I ate at last night can draw some diagrams, and if was able to be replicated... he can now say has networking experience? OK... ;)

    He said he is publishing these online. Its not like he is doing for his company he works at.
  • markulousmarkulous Member Posts: 2,394 ■■■■■■■■□□
    It's not experience, not at all. The difference being is that you don't have critical apps running in place, power outages, malicious actors, route changes, patching, etc. You're not managing anything.

    Now it's a good start, absolutely. It shows you have a desire to learn and not quite as steep of a learning curve as others. I would be 100% honest about what it is.
  • networker050184networker050184 Mod Posts: 11,962 Mod
    egrizzly wrote: »
    The networks implemented at work they always draw it out on Visio and print it for our meetings. How come that one counts as experience yet if I do the exact same without actually being at work it doesn't count as experience

    The printing isn't the part that counts as experience. It's the designing and implementing part.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
  • NOC-NinjaNOC-Ninja Member Posts: 1,403
    egrizzly wrote: »
    Question for hiring managers or network engineer team leads

    If you design a standard WAN network for instance, for a company of 1000 users. The network incorporates the use of 10 routers, 20 switches, 2 firewalls, and OSPF as the routing protocol, then you publish it online so people can view, and the network can be replicated and verified in a simulator (e.g. GNS3). Can you use it as experience even though it was not done in a production environment ( or in a role as a network engineer).
    I would not think thats experience. You will be surprise how much sarcasm happens in real world.
    I would joke this around and tell people, yeah let me implement that in gns3 and it will work in the real world.
    Kind like , hey let me code that in notepad and i will have a kick ass app.

    The problem is that simulator only gives you the concept. The real world/ real devices, this is where you will find real problems.
    You have to work around the current network to implement what you want to do. Gns3 cannot replicate that.

    Story time:
    1 of the people I know who is a Lead Engineer implemented his network in gns3. It worked fine. Beautiful... no problems at all.
    It didnt work when it was implementation day. He missed A LOT of stuff. The buildings didnt have internet for 3 days. The whole network team had to work for 3 days to help him.

    Now imagine that.

    EDIT: 3 days X 15hrs/day
  • egrizzlyegrizzly B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+ Member Posts: 515 ■■■■■□□□□□
    So you're saying then in the real world when they want to implement a network they do this from their heads without first drawing something out on Visio ?
    NOC-Ninja wrote: »
    I would not think thats experience. You will be surprise how much sarcasm happens in real world.
    I would joke this around and tell people, yeah let me implement that in gns3 and it will work in the real world.
    Kind like , hey let me code that in notepad and i will have a kick ass app.

    The problem is that simulator only gives you the concept. The real world/ real devices, this is where you will find real problems.
    You have to work around the current network to implement what you want to do. Gns3 cannot replicate that.

    Story time:
    1 of the people I know who is a Lead Engineer implemented his network in gns3. It worked fine. Beautiful... no problems at all.
    It didnt work when it was implementation day. He missed A LOT of stuff. The buildings didnt have internet for 3 days. The whole network team had to work for 3 days to help him.

    Now imagine that.

    EDIT: 3 days X 15hrs/day
    B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+
  • TechGromitTechGromit GSEC, GCIH, GREM, Ontario, NY Member Posts: 2,138 ■■■■■■■■■□
    adam220891 wrote: »
    You have a CCNP without job experience?

    My guess is he has networking experience, but not with designing a new network from the ground up. Really how often does one get the opportunity to design a new network? Usually you inherit someone else's network, and have to maintain it. If it's a crappy design, you might be able to improve it over time, but it's not like they say your hired, now go out and trash my network and resign it from the ground up so it performs better.
    Still searching for the corner in a round room.
  • networker050184networker050184 Mod Posts: 11,962 Mod
    egrizzly wrote: »
    So you're saying then in the real world when they want to implement a network they do this from their heads without first drawing something out on Visio ?

    Maybe, but I'd hope they at least plan it out first whether that is in viso or what not.

    I think it's clear the consensus is it doesn't count as experience. No need to be so defensive because the answers aren't what you wanted to hear.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
  • egrizzlyegrizzly B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+ Member Posts: 515 ■■■■■□□□□□
    you're right. I thank TE friends for all the responses but I'm certainly not convinced that creating an original, implementable design, for a corporation of 3000 users, for instance, does not count as experience. There's a lot of planning and analysis that goes into it.

    Maybe, but I'd hope they at least plan it out first whether that is in viso or what not.

    I think it's clear the consensus is it doesn't count as experience. No need to be so defensive because the answers aren't what you wanted to hear.
    B.Sc (Info. Systems), CISSP, CCNA, CCNP, Security+
  • NetworkNewbNetworkNewb Member Posts: 3,298 ■■■■■■■■■□
    My wife wasn't feeling good the other day. Her forehead was hot and I diagnosed her with having a fever. I'm thinking if putting on my resume I have experience in the medical profession.

    Is this a big exaggeration of what your trying to do? Yes. Is it just another example of doing something at home and trying to pass it of as real job experience? Yes

    Everyone who ever played around with GNS3 could say they have networking experience if they went by what your trying to do. Or are you trying to say once a topology gets a certain size you can than count it as "real" experience? And smaller networks don't. If so, what size of network would you say counts? You keep saying the size of the network you put together like that is determining factor is the only reason I ask.
  • tunerXtunerX Member Posts: 447 ■■■□□□□□□□
    A design that is never implemented is just a project. Only after it has gone through the first iteration of PPDIOO and is a measurable/demonstrable success can a design be attributable to "work" experience.

    What you did is experience but it is learning experience not really professional experience where people paid you for a working/optimal design.
  • networker050184networker050184 Mod Posts: 11,962 Mod
    egrizzly wrote: »
    you're right. I thank TE friends for all the responses but I'm certainly not convinced that creating an original, implementable design, for a corporation of 3000 users, for instance, does not count as experience. There's a lot of planning and analysis that goes into it.

    Creating an actual design for a real corporation would be professional experience. A theoretical design you just post on the internet wouldn't be.
    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made.
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