Cyber Security field is getting wild

TheFORCE

This is just an observation that I have noticed recently and wanted to see how other people feel. Personally I dont mind when i see people actually working on their own trying to change fields.

Then I see posts like the below that invokes feelings of disrespect towards the profession and mixed feelings. I mean come on, first of all, your mother pleads for you to get a job, you just finished a degree in Biochemistry with no experience in Cyber or IT with only 1 internship last summer in "Cyber forensics" I dont even know what that internship entails, just a fancy word to attracts people. This posts screams "fancy" words to get a job. Various IT tools? Really, what did he use? Agile environment? Really, what was his role in that environment? He could have been ordering coffee for all i know. Competed nationally as part of a team? Really what was his role in the team? Booting up the laptops for the other kids that actually knew what they were doing?

Then we see posts here of people actually finishing IT degrees and looking for entry IT jobs, while others that use "fancy" vague wording aiming for the BA and QA roles. What do you guys take from this? How do you feel when you see these stuff?

Besides, I thought biochemistry pays more in the long run.

Thoughts?

mbarrett

a) This is somebody's Mom plugging her son on social media. All bets for rationality are completely off the table.
b) This is a kid just out of college - people that age changes careers all the time. If there's a time in your life to try a different career direction, this is it. Plenty of people do it.
c) Biochemistry might not be as much of a stretch as you think - in-depth analysis, research and logical reasoning. Sounds good to me, as long as they're motivated & interested.

Deus Ex Machina

But-but-but he's entitled to work in security!

My guess for this particular situation is that the son is having a hard time finding a job in biochem and his mom is just trying to help him out however she can, even if that means working in a totally different field. It's just a shot in the dark. Of course she will spin things to sound as favorable for her son as possible.

In terms of security getting weird, its because people see it as a gold rush right now. Even I have fallen for that a bit. I do tech support for a community college, you should see how many kids are joining us trying to get their B.S. in Cyber Security. It's probably our second most popular degree after psychology. People read about a "43% growth rate" and the high salaries, and they think that this demand means its a sure-fire bet they will be able to work in the field and get rich quick. It isn't that easy though. Nothing in life is.

Deus Ex Machina

@mbarrett are you this kids mom? Just kidding

But if I hear one more person make the "analytical skills" argument I'm gonna vomit. You don't learn "how to think" from college. You can learn some "analytical skills" from flipping burgers at McDonalds and realizing that their food is disgusting. And at least that's actual work experience.

And of course he's gonna say he's "motivated and interested", who wouldn't?

Let's go through this conversation together-

"Oh hey, I heard you are looking for a job. Are you motivated and interested in X job that I can hook you up with?"

"Meh, not really. I would rather just continue looking on my own and throw away job opportunities like they are party favors."

"Ok, well every single other person said they were VERY (with CAPS) motivated and interested, so I'm gonna give this to someone else. Have a nice life!"

Danielm7

Using family contacts to get a job is fine. Having your mom come on social media and try to sell you as a good boy when you're already done college is not OK.

I'm always curious about situations like this though. Major in BioChem, minor in Japanese, does internship in forensics and is part of the cyber forensics club. Why not actually major in the area that you enjoy AND is marketable?

TheFORCE

Danielm7 wrote: »

Using family contacts to get a job is fine. Having your mom come on social media and try to sell you as a good boy when you're already done college is not OK.

I'm always curious about situations like this though. Major in BioChem, minor in Japanese, does internship in forensics and is part of the cyber forensics club. Why not actually major in the area that you enjoy AND is marketable?

Thats exactly what I wonder also. Why didn't you try the internships earlier in your college career but waited the summer before you complete your degree. If you had interest in IT you would have had it way earlier, it took 1 internship to change your mind so easily after completing 4 years of biochem? Wow.

IronmanX

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

In terms of security getting weird, its because people see it as a gold rush right now. Even I have fallen for that a bit. I do tech support for a community college, you should see how many kids are joining us trying to get their B.S. in Cyber Security. It's probably our second most popular degree after psychology. People read about a "43% growth rate" and the high salaries, and they think that this demand means its a sure-fire bet they will be able to work in the field and get rich quick. It isn't that easy though. Nothing in life is.

I think this is the same as programming in the late 90's. People heard about good money and good growth and signed up for programming degrees. I actually knew someone who had their dad say they would not pay for there college education unless they took computer programming/engineering. He took it failed out and ended up doing marketing or something I think.

I think security would be even worse due to my belief that security is not an entry level job. I wonder how successful people are who graduate from security undergrad degree.

cyberguypr

We struggled (as everyone does) hiring an entry level security analyst. We found one guy relatively similar to this profile. Studied something unrelated, did a couple of minor security related things. He sounded excited, knew the basics, etc. We extended a generous offer and the guy says "give me a few days to think about it". I wasn't sure what was there to think about if he was so excited but sure, why not give him a few days. Fast forward 2 days and he comes back with, and I quote: "sorry, I'm declining because my dad says the pay you offer is too low and I can find something better". That was it word by word. To this day I am still perplexed by this guy. Beware of the mama and papa's boys.

Danielm7

cyberguypr wrote: »

"sorry, I'm declining because my dad says the pay you offer is too low and I can find something better". That was it word by word. To this day I am still perplexed by this guy. Beware of the mama and papa's boys.

I'd be tempted to check him out on linkedin later and see if he ever actually got a job.

ITSec14

I honestly feel bad for this kid and horrible parenting on his mothers part...

Millennials have been dealt a bad hand IMO. I see kids in High School now driving cars WAY nicer than mine (I don't do too bad for myself, but I'm definitely not rich). The sad part is this generation of kids could be remarkable in the workplace (and many are!) if they just had the right direction.

ITSec14

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

@mbarrett are you this kids mom? Just kidding

But if I hear one more person make the "analytical skills" argument I'm gonna vomit. You don't learn "how to think" from college. You can learn some "analytical skills" from flipping burgers at McDonalds and realizing that their food is disgusting. And at least that's actual work experience.

And of course he's gonna say he's "motivated and interested", who wouldn't?

Let's go through this conversation together-

"Oh hey, I heard you are looking for a job. Are you motivated and interested in X job that I can hook you up with?"

"Meh, not really. I would rather just continue looking on my own and throw away job opportunities like they are party favors."

"Ok, well every single other person said they were VERY (with CAPS) motivated and interested, so I'm gonna give this to someone else. Have a nice life!"

I actually benefited a lot from college and would argue it does teach you how to learn and think. I took intensive writing classes designed to increase my analytical skills. For example, I had a 10 page paper I had to write simply based on my interpretation of a famous painting. It sounded so utterly and completely ridiculous at the time and had no idea how I would do it, but when I look back it really pushed my brain beyond its normal limits. Our professor had degrees from Oxford, UVA and the University of London, which I can totally respect.

I thoroughly enjoyed my college experience.

GeekyChick

I'm hoping he would be totally embarrassed that he had to use his mama to get a job. I'm all for helping my kids out, but with all those "good" qualifications, he should be able to get a job himself. I have 2 sons and I don't think I would ever do this unless I was totally desperate. Which makes me believe she's desperate and he isn't. That's probably part of the problem. If we as parents always do everything for our kids they will continue to do nothing. That's just the parenting side of it. For the tech side of it, I say put your dues in and wait in line for the cybersecurity job.


P.S. I wouldn't mind if she posted one for me though.

SpetsRepair

I left cyber security after being at a company for two years and am back in a different role now which pays much more than I was making as a security engineer, being honest though it is like a gold rush on some teams and might be thinking of going back if I can..

YFZblu

IMO, what you're talking about isn't just a cyber security problem. The entirety of IT is crammed with people who have no business working in the field. It's a mess.

mbarrett

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

But if I hear one more person make the "analytical skills" argument I'm gonna vomit. You don't learn "how to think" from college. You can learn some "analytical skills" from flipping burgers at McDonalds and realizing that their food is disgusting. And at least that's actual work experience.

A degree in biochemistry is not like a degree in the social sciences, underwater basket-weaving, etc. Someone with a 4-year degree with that major is a lot more capable of succeeding at forensic analysis than a burger-flipper. I hope you are kidding?
It's up to the hiring manager to decide whether he's motivated enough. The burger flipper is motivated enough to get up every day and trudge off to his low wage job. People do that all the time for their own reasons - nothing wrong with that but it means little towards a forensics job, except getting up every day? (I guess they have to know when to flip the meat...)

ITSec14

YFZblu wrote: »

IMO, what you're talking about isn't just a cyber security problem. The entirety of IT is crammed with people who have no business working in the field. It's a mess.

Depends on the individual. The only one's I see who don't have any business in the field are the one's who get comfortable. IT needs to broaden its horizon more and attract people who think differently than your average techie. Anyone can learn the technical knowledge.

jelevated

YFZblu wrote: »

IMO, what you're talking about isn't just a cyber security problem. The entirety of IT is crammed with people who have no business working in the field. It's a mess.

And getting paid good money to warm seats.

Blucodex

ITSec14 wrote: »

Anyone can learn the technical knowledge.

Not entirely accurate IMO.

yoba222

Heh heh. I've heard Internet tales of a parent showing up with the child for a job interview before (where the child promptly lost that job prospect). Maybe it really does happen.

EDIT: As far as mom asking for a job for her son, it DOES look like she got some resume requests.

JoJoCal19

cyberguypr wrote: »

We struggled (as everyone does) hiring an entry level security analyst. We found one guy relatively similar to this profile. Studied something unrelated, did a couple of minor security related things. He sounded excited, knew the basics, etc. We extended a generous offer and the guy says "give me a few days to think about it". I wasn't sure what was there to think about if he was so excited but sure, why not give him a few days. Fast forward 2 days and he comes back with, and I quote: "sorry, I'm declining because my dad says the pay you offer is too low and I can find something better". That was it word by word. To this day I am still perplexed by this guy. Beware of the mama and papa's boys.

Wonder if his dad was LaVar Ball

leothebest

My reaction to this was to immediately remove my connection with the recruiter that liked and replied to the post requesting the mother to send her an email with the boy's resume. There is no way that someone who considers themselves a professional, should use a recruiter that is willing to entertain a post consisting of a mother trying to solicit job offers for her son.

zeitgeist29

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

But if I hear one more person make the "analytical skills" argument I'm gonna vomit. You don't learn "how to think" from college. You can learn some "analytical skills" from flipping burgers at McDonalds and realizing that their food is disgusting. And at least that's actual work experience.

Analytical skills from flipping burgers is almost an oxymoron. How many thought processes are required to realize the food is gross? Nothing about flipping burger is as analytical as taking a college course where you have to think your way through an issue or topic. Creating an experiment in a psych lab or having to write a 10 page paper about anything is FAR more skillful than flipping burgers.

Deus Ex Machina

mbarrett wrote: »

A degree in biochemistry is not like a degree in the social sciences, underwater basket-weaving, etc. Someone with a 4-year degree with that major is a lot more capable of succeeding at forensic analysis than a burger-flipper. I hope you are kidding?
It's up to the hiring manager to decide whether he's motivated enough. The burger flipper is motivated enough to get up every day and trudge off to his low wage job. People do that all the time for their own reasons - nothing wrong with that but it means little towards a forensics job, except getting up every day? (I guess they have to know when to flip the meat...)

The point I was trying to make was that the "analytical skills" argument has been made so many times for many things that it doesn't have any meaning anymore. Obviously, getting a degree in biochemistry takes more mental throughput than flipping burgers. However, analytical skills as a concept is not universal. Its almost insulting to say that someone "knows how to think", therefore, they are qualified for whatever job they want. Judge based on knowledge base and merit, not on fancy sounding schools and fancy (yet unrelated!) degrees.

In addition, having a difficult degree in a totally unrelated field should NOT automatically put you on the same level as people who graduated with degrees relevant to the job. The notion that this kid will get a cyber security gig now just because he went to a fancy school with a random science degree and some played-up extra circulars pisses me off. There's kids out there (like me!) who actually care about this field and have dedicated their lives to IT, and now one of us won't get an opportunity they needed because they were usurped by some Villanova grad who saw IT as a backup plan.

Be careful when you generalize everything into "analytical skills" and "motivation and interest". It can help true talent "float to the top", but it can also just empower the marketers and give the already well-off an insurmountable advantage.

TheFORCE

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

In addition, having a difficult degree in a totally unrelated field should NOT automatically put you on the same level as people who graduated with degrees relevant to the job. The notion that this kid will get a cyber security gig now just because he went to a fancy school with a random science degree and some played-up extra circulars pisses me off. There's kids out there (like me!) who actually care about this field and have dedicated their lives to IT, and now one of us won't get an opportunity they needed because they were usurped by some Villanova grad who saw IT as a backup plan.

Be careful when you generalize everything into "analytical skills" and "motivation and interest". It can help true talent "float to the top", but it can also just empower the marketers and give the already well-off an insurmountable advantage.

Deus make a good point. What's the point of going the IT and CS degree route when you can go any degree route and yet get a job in IT and especially in Cyber security and forensics when all of us here continuously preach that you need some experience in other roles before being able to transfer to security related jobs. This kid did 1 summer internship and took part in some "game" and now he thinks cyber is all about trying to catch hackers and use exploits without really understanding how everything works. While the rest of the people like Deus and some other posters here study the material, do their homework, learn some programming and breath IT articles, continuously keep in the game via certifications and labbing. While this kid puts his mom to throw a message out there to solicit job requests without paying any of the "dues".

ratbuddy

cyberguypr wrote: »

Fast forward 2 days and he comes back with, and I quote: "sorry, I'm declining because my dad says the pay you offer is too low and I can find something better". That was it word by word.

Just curious, how much did ya offer and where was the job located?

mbarrett

TheFORCE wrote: »

Deus make a good point. What's the point of going the IT and CS degree route when you can go any degree route and yet get a job in IT and especially in Cyber security and forensics when all of us here continuously preach that you need some experience in other roles before being able to transfer to security related jobs. This kid did 1 summer internship and took part in some "game" and now he thinks cyber is all about trying to catch hackers and use exploits without really understanding how everything works. While the rest of the people like Deus and some other posters here study the material, do their homework, learn some programming and breath IT articles, continuously keep in the game via certifications and labbing. While this kid puts his mom to throw a message out there to solicit job requests without paying any of the "dues".

Who are you or I to judge? I don't disagree with what you're saying. But if the kid wants to do forensics instead of what he went to school for, that's his prerogative. Besides, we don't know if he actually got a job off his efforts, or what kind of job.

TheFORCE

I'm not judging, just trying to understand how can someone spend 4 years in college for biochem or any other degree and expect to get a job in IT when we all know how tough it can be. These kids maybe are watching too many movies and think everyone in IT is a hacker.

EnderWiggin

So we're all just going to sit here and judge this person because their mom posted something about them? With no information about whether the person even WANTED their mom posting it, or if the post is even an accurate description of the person's feelings on the matter?

Cool.

UnixGuy

I'm doing it all wrong then, I should've asked my mum to find me a job!!!!


Jokes aside....Someone without a degree, and with or without an internship CAN get a job in 'Cyber Forensics'. It's not that hard to pick up and learn, and you don't NEED a degree to an entry level job to build up to it. Sure, it's much harder to find someone to get you this kind of opportunity, but it happens...ALL the time. It doesn't bother me.

Sure it would've been nice if my mum found me a job in Cyber Forensics, but who knows, maybe I woulda hated it or something. I love my journey, and no one can take my personal growth away from me.

cisco4life

It does seem like Cybersecurity is the new gold rush for many. Back around 2000, during the dot com bubble, there were advertisements all over the place for "colleges" that basically offered boot camps for Microsoft and Cisco claiming you'd make big money in a short time with no prior experience. I've seen many people (especially in DoD contractors) that became "Cybersecurity Professionals" the day they passed the Security+ exam even though their prior experience was in totally unrelated, non-technical fields. With the requirement of DoD 8570, many people used this as an easy way to change job fields within their organization. I have seen many who took it seriously and grew in the field to become very successful...most others sort of tag along with the overall security organization doing administrative paperwork tasks but still proudly use the title of "Cybersecurity" analyst, engineer, etc. I guess everyone has to start somewhere and if you have the desire and determination, anyone can succeed in any field.

NOC-Ninja

This is not even a secret. A lot of work related position is WHO you know and not what you know.
Just look at our politicians. How many of their relatives gets in the govt and makes decision without having any knowledge on the subject.

Lots of low hanging fruit engineers got in without any skills at all. Im not even surprise if this is still going on.