Network Bulls India

Hi, guys.. I'm planning to fly out to India (Network Bulls) for my CCIE R&S... Has anyone had experience with them? Thanks.

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GirlyGirl

Good Luck.

I will say that I went to the website and found three of the alleged individuals who obtained the CCIE. I will say that I found a few of the people on LinkedIn. One of them has more than 500 connections and also Network Bulls under his education. That would leave me to believe that the company is somewhat legit. If he had less than 20 connections I would be worried. 500+ gives me a sense of satisfaction. That is not to say the company didn't pay him to put his face on the website though. Sorry, back to thinking positive.

It is A LOT of IT based training offered in India. I am sure you are aware of that. I personally have never heard of them but that does not take away from how legetimate a company might be. India is a pretty big country. I am sure it is more companies doing training than the 5 I know.

Again, Good Luck.

Edit:

I did a few more searches of the instructors. I would say it is official and you have nothing to worry about!

Iristheangel

Hit or miss depending on which source you read. I've heard a lot of folks say it's a brain **** school and others don't. I have no idea but I've seen a few people fighting with them on Linkedin about it but can't personally say for sure. They boast a "first time pass rate" of 90% which seems INSANE to me. Since the worldwide average of first time pass rate of CCIEs is somewhere in the percentage of single digits according to what one proctor told me,I would say run like the forest is on fire from this company and go with a better known company.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ccie/comments/5vkuyu/network_bulls_reviews_anyone/

@GirlyGirl - Just because an institute can create CCIEs doesn't mean it's creating them the right way. I'm always a little skeptical unless some folks I know have gone through it and verifies it's legit. Unfortunately, some parts of the world have more of these institutions than others. Anyone boasting a "guarantee pass" or a unrealistic first time pass rate is probably selling something you don't want to buy.

joelsfood

Any training center that quotes an unbelievable pass rate is probably too good to be true.

Also, looking at their CCIE DC page, which of course is one that interests me most, I notice that neither of their trainers actually have their CCIE DC. "CCIE DC Written certified" is not a thing.

I would recommend sticking to the usual suspects (INE, Micronics, Global Knowledge, etc)

WafflesAndRootbeer

You couldn't pay me to attend IT training in India. It's not talked about much in IT, but it's been proven - and Indian media has acknowledged it themselves - that India's educational system is sub-par and full of Buy-A-Degree (or certification) outfits that produce no real quality workers. If you're going to get IT training, get it from a source that is known to be trust-worthy.

JoJoCal19

WafflesAndRootbeer wrote: »

You couldn't pay me to attend IT training in India. It's not talked about much in IT, but it's been proven - and Indian media has acknowledged it themselves - that India's educational system is sub-par and full of Buy-A-Degree (or certification) outfits that produce no real quality workers. If you're going to get IT training, get it from a source that is known to be trust-worthy.

While I agree there are probably a lot of degree mills or braindump camps over there (and elsewhere in the world), I would be careful painting the entire country and their education system with such a broad stroke like that. I have counterparts over there, and work with a large Indian population on GRC/Audit/InfoSec stuff, and they're pretty damned smart, work their asses off, and are great at what they do.

Iristheangel

@WafflesAndRootbeer, Kind of reminds me of this news story:

- India test cheating stirs outrage

The story about the medical school exam makes me think that I never want to have to go to the hospital in India if I can avoid it.

Not to paint any country with a broad brush because I know in a country as dense and large as India, there will be a mix of folks but I think generally in countries with a higher population rate and poverty rate, cheating tends to happen at higher rates because folks don't have extra cash to retake exams or get the right study materials. It's unfortunate of course but it's also why a large number of highly skilled jobs that got outsourced to those countries ended up moving back.

Another interesting article: https://qz.com/964843/less-than-5-of-india-engineers-are-cut-out-for-high-skill-programming-jobs/

WafflesAndRootbeer

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

While I agree there are probably a lot of degree mills or braindump camps over there (and elsewhere in the world), I would be careful painting the entire country and their education system with such a broad stroke like that. I have counterparts over there, and work with a large Indian population on GRC/Audit/InfoSec stuff, and they're pretty damned smart, work their asses off, and are great at what they do.

Students, beware: 23 universities, 279 technical institutes in India fake | education | Hindustan Times

14 universities on

Unaccredited, even fake, colleges in India add to education crisis | The Seattle Times

Man gets sack 25 years after he got job with fake certificate - Times of India

They fake it, but they can't make it, Singapore News - AsiaOne

https://gocertify.in/articles/certification-verification-rogue-it-credentials-rampant-in-india/

MOM hires firm in India to verify education certificates, Singapore News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

https://www.citehr.com/392224-employee-fake-experience-there-corporate-registry-blacklisting.html

Liar for hire? Fake CVs flood Indian job market | Inquirer Business

Fake Indian degrees flood Middle East market - Khaleej Times

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140830070342-3350409-fake-universities-and-diploma-mills-in-india

I'm obviously talking out of my butt-hole and have clearly exaggerated the problem....

ACloudGuy

Iristheangel wrote: »

@WafflesAndRootbeer, Kind of reminds me of this news story:

- India test cheating stirs outrage

The story about the medical school exam makes me think that I never want to have to go to the hospital in India if I can avoid it.

Not to paint any country with a broad brush because I know in a country as dense and large as India, there will be a mix of folks but I think generally in countries with a higher population rate and poverty rate, cheating tends to happen at higher rates because folks don't have extra cash to retake exams or get the right study materials. It's unfortunate of course but it's also why a large number of highly skilled jobs that got outsourced to those countries ended up moving back.

Another interesting article: https://qz.com/964843/less-than-5-of-india-engineers-are-cut-out-for-high-skill-programming-jobs/

Wow!
I find your comment a bit insulting. I know you are active on the forum and work hard. However, you are in fact painting a broad brush with the words '...I think generally in countries with a higher population rate and poverty rate, cheating tends to happen at higher rates because folks don't have extra cash to retake exams or get the right study materials.

so how many people have you surveyed with this assertion? The folks who come on an IT forum? Is that a statistical representative sampling of a country?
I am not Indian, but I have friends who are, I've employed them as well and also work with them as peers. I've been to technical training taught by many smart Indians. I've actually taken the time to understand how they rose up from poverty to be where they are today I can say many of them are in fact not what you are speaking of.
I am an immigrant from a Caribbean country with high poverty and crime and the people are very proud. Our mindset is not to **** as you put it simply because we cannot afford a class. When I started back in NT4 MCSE, I could not afford the$10k class and I worked my ass off the right way.

Not to sidebar the conversation to sports but this poverty high country has managed to produce the fastest man in the world, adored by millions.
This is the sort of underhanded disingenuous comments which irk people of integrity.
I don't have to leave USA to also find many cheats in all walks of life!

BonganiTheBearded

Thank you all, for your replies.

I've decided to sit back a bit and weigh my options further. However, the sales lady is very much pestering for well blossoming business, It kind of made me raise my funny eyebrows.(Though, she might be just being a sales person trying to close a sale. No harm meant)

And.. oh, yes! They did guarantee me a pass!

Thanks again,

Iristheangel

ACloudGuy wrote: »

Wow!
I find your comment a bit insulting. I know you are active on the forum and work hard. However, you are in fact painting a broad brush with the words '...I think generally in countries with a higher population rate and poverty rate, cheating tends to happen at higher rates because folks don't have extra cash to retake exams or get the right study materials.

so how many people have you surveyed with this assertion? The folks who come on an IT forum? Is that a statistical representative sampling of a country?
I am not Indian, but I have friends who are, I've employed them as well and also work with them as peers. I've been to technical training taught by many smart Indians. I've actually taken the time to understand how they rose up from poverty to be where they are today I can say many of them are in fact not what you are speaking of.
I am an immigrant from a Caribbean country with high poverty and crime and the people are very proud. Our mindset is not to **** as you put it simply because we cannot afford a class. When I started back in NT4 MCSE, I could not afford the$10k class and I worked my ass off the right way.

Not to sidebar the conversation to sports but this poverty high country has managed to produce the fastest man in the world, adored by millions.
This is the sort of underhanded disingenuous comments which irk people of integrity.
I don't have to leave USA to also find many cheats in all walks of life!

I must have missed the part where I called every single person in India or other countries with higher poverty rates cheaters. Do you mind pointing it out for me? Because I know many folks from India and similar counties who don't lack integrity and I stated as much - in fact, I'm married to an immigrant from a country with a high poverty level. Did you read the links I provided? They sampled 36,000 programming graduates in India and found under 5% of them had the programming skills needed for the job market. There's also the LA Times article that investigated the cheating scandal across all levels of infrastructure. Oh yeah, there are the 12 or so links that Waffles posted.

That's not to say that EVERY person out of Asia or any poorer country is going to **** or be a **** - I would never say that but when you have extreme economic disadvantage, the average student doesn't have the extra money for the following:

- Better study resources
- Repeated exam attempts
- Repeated travel to exam centers

There's also cultural acceptance of cheating in some of those countries as well which also affects the higher rates of cheating.

Would you like me to cite articles and studies showing that international students out of certain countries are shown to **** more?
http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20160921125627336
https://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-students-seen-cheating-more-than-domestic-ones-1465140141

I'm also not sure how the fastest man in the world has anything to do with cultural issues related to educational cheating. I admire that you worked your ass off for the classes the right way - I'm sure you're not the only one nor did I imply you were. You can say: "Cheating is more likely to happen here because of XYZ" without saying that everyone is a cheater and because you didn't ****, it doesn't mean others do not.

As far as personal experience, I also know plenty of folks from other countries who work hard and get their certs/education the right way and I've been approached by literally hundreds who have asked me for exam ****, free materials, etc and the excuse for why they can't study the right way or buy the materials is the same: I can't afford it, I have a family to feed, etc. That personal experience also has let me recognize that not everyone cheats but also the ones that do, I feel a little bit more empathy towards because it's not always malicious and economic factors are at play.

Oh... and I've never said people don't **** in the United States. I've done enough technical interviews to know that isn't true.

JustFred

You could also save up a bit then take a Narbik course.

Legacy User

Just out of curiosity how can you take off 3 months to go for training which is the length of time for this CCIE training? Do you work remotely or between gigs at the moment?

joelsfood

BonganiTheBearded wrote: »

And.. oh, yes! They did guarantee me a pass!

That right there tells you all you need to know. Wait until you can take a bootcamp with Narbik or INE. Avoid anyone who guarantees a pass, as there's only one way to do that.

ITSpectre

joelsfood wrote: »

That right there tells you all you need to know. Wait until you can take a bootcamp with Narbik or INE. Avoid anyone who guarantees a pass, as there's only one way to do that.

GOT EM

Replicon

Recently I interviewed 3 Indian guys for junior position. All 3 had CCNA R&S. I don't. None of them knew what VLAN is. Will skip CVs from the subcontinent in the future in order not to waste my time.

Cisco Inferno

Replicon wrote: »

Recently I interviewed 3 Indian guys for junior position. All 3 had CCNA R&S. I don't. None of them knew what VLAN is. Will skip CVs from the subcontinent in the future in order not to waste my time.

Whoa whoa how is that even possible?

wd40

Cisco Inferno unfortunately it is possible.

I came across an IT security researcher / Master of All things related to security, asking for an EC-Counsel exam **** on linkedin!

Hawk321

Well I stand in contact with them to do some courses without any certification exam (no CCIE !).
What I can say so far:
- no one promised me anything, they offered me to get the CCIE class to get some more knowledge because it is pretty cheap
- I asked if it is realistic to get the ccna sec in 3-4 weeks...the trainers said "yes possible, if you know your stuff and had many lab hours"

They also offered me to just take the class and use their lab 2-4 weeks for free after the course for my personal training. On their page they offer for free various workbooks. All valid stuff no dumping. I highly doubt that a person can **** a ccnp r&s in 3 or 4 weeks.

Regarding ****....I know, that almost ALL courses here in germany use them! No labs, only damn powerpoint warriors and ****.
On the other hand, I would sue every company who uses **** instead of teaching me the stuff.

I am not willed to buy 2 ASA 550x X with Firepower licenses just for some labbing in the ccnp track ! That's why I want class room training with real hardware.

The only concern I have is the spoken english...on their page there are some customers in videos who are CCNP's and CCIE's. The spoken english is awful in my opinion considering all the studies.

No one of us knows the background of the students there. What if a Juniper guy with years of experience want to get the CCIE ??? Or what about Chris Bogart from INE who claims he did the 1st CCIE in 6 month WITHOUT any computer knowledge at all.

Iristheangel

Hawk321 wrote: »

Well I stand in contact with them to do some courses without any certification exam (no CCIE !).
What I can say so far:
- no one promised me anything, they offered me to get the CCIE class to get some more knowledge because it is pretty cheap
- I asked if it is realistic to get the ccna sec in 3-4 weeks...the trainers said "yes possible, if you know your stuff and had many lab hours"

They also offered me to just take the class and use their lab 2-4 weeks for free after the course for my personal training. On their page they offer for free various workbooks. All valid stuff no dumping. I highly doubt that a person can **** a ccnp r&s in 3 or 4 weeks.

Regarding ****....I know, that almost ALL courses here in germany use them! No labs, only damn powerpoint warriors and ****.
On the other hand, I would sue every company who uses **** instead of teaching me the stuff.

I am not willed to buy 2 ASA 550x X with Firepower licenses just for some labbing in the ccnp track ! That's why I want class room training with real hardware.

The only concern I have is the spoken english...on their page there are some customers in videos who are CCNP's and CCIE's. The spoken english is awful in my opinion considering all the studies.

No one of us knows the background of the students there. What if a Juniper guy with years of experience want to get the CCIE ??? Or what about Chris Bogart from INE who claims he did the 1st CCIE in 6 month WITHOUT any computer knowledge at all.

A person can **** a CCNP R&S in 3-4 weeks taking an exam a week by studying the answers. Sad but true.

Claiming to have a 90% first time pass rate of the CCIE either means they are lying or selling **** - It's right here: Tips to pass CCIE Lab Exam in 1st Attempt | Do's & Don'ts of CCIE Exam Preparations - NetworkBulls
Taking into account the variarty and diversity of backgrounds, this is still not possible given that the first time pass rate worldwide is in the single digit percentage points. Even with skilled instructors such as Narbik, they don't have as high of pass rates as that or anywhere in the ballpark.

As far as Keith Bogart, his CCIE number is #4923 - which means he was taking v1 of the lab. This is back when TAC/The Proctor/etc would go in and randomly mess stuff up in the lab and there was no set test so it was fairly undumpable at that point. I can't vouch for what his experience was 6 months prior to taking the lab but a) it was a very different lab at that point and b) there wasn't really a way to know what the engineer was going to do to your racks during the 2 day test so I'm pretty confident he didn't **** it.

Hawk321

Iristheangel wrote: »

A person can **** a CCNP R&S in 3-4 weeks taking an exam a week by studying the answers. Sad but true.

But this kind of person would get kicked out everywhere and employers sue those fraudulent guys (law here). Why should somenone pay 3500 $ for the course if he can get those **** for almost nothing ?

Claiming to have a 90% first time pass rate of the CCIE either means they are lying or selling **** - It's right here: Tips to pass CCIE Lab Exam in 1st Attempt | Do's & Don'ts of CCIE Exam Preparations - NetworkBulls

The blog clearly states it: Read all book, lab hard, do mock exams (like the one from INE or Pearson). We will see what they really are.

alan2308

Hawk, the reason is because the kind of person who's going to use a **** either hasn't figured out Google yet, or can't be bothered to go look for them self. I admin a big CCNA group on Facebook, and all the people who I kick out for discussing **** expect everything to just be given to them.

Hawk321

@alan2308

I understand...I know some people who can do nothing. People who just whining around and beg for help...but what they really want is not help...they want to find a fool who does the work for them.

At college, I did my MS 70-410 cert it was valued as an exam substitute and graded. How ever...it took month for me to complete it....Pearson Book...Labs....Pluraslsight and CBTNuggets....Blogs....and normal studies aside this particular subject like java, pl/sql etc. None of my co students used a book (1 guy skimmed some pages...), what they did (all) -->using braindumps. My docent told them that every one gets a 'F' if the person can't describe what such a braindump question wants....no one could....(except me).
I remember as I did the tuition in the networking class. I told them everything about MAC Addresses, standard symbols etc. but 2 weeks later, no one was able to tell me the bit size of a mac.

I thought...hmm stupid class? Nope...I see this kind of behavior everywhere, specially in my old profession (before I went to IT College).

Regarding to networkbulls
I wonder why we don't have such companies here in germany. Sure 5 days powerpoint warrior seminars for 5000$ without any practice.....it is like a chicken egg problem. Companies need the CCNA levels and more than that CCNP levels...but if no one is teaching that here for a affordable price...we (the western world) will get a problem soon.

A temp company offered me 11,56 € per hour...avg salary here is >4000,-€ everything IT related

Iristheangel

Hawk321 wrote: »

But this kind of person would get kicked out everywhere and employers sue those fraudulent guys (law here). Why should somenone pay 3500 $ for the course if he can get those **** for almost nothing ?

The blog clearly states it: Read all book, lab hard, do mock exams (like the one from INE or Pearson). We will see what they really are.

Because some **** aren't easily available or they can't be guarenteed to be up-to-date and people like guarantees that they'll pass and/or be given placement for jobs.

Also, you can't sue someone for fraud if they have the certificate that they represented themselves as having - even if it was obtained by cheating - that's why people do it. Misrepresenting yourself as having credentials you do not have opens you up but even then, I doubt most companies would try to "make a stone bleed" by suing a random prospective employee or employee. There's not really a lot of money to make there but a lot of legal fees for the company to incur even if they win. The would-be employees want to get a leg up in the job world and they think the pretty piece of paper is all they need.

Iristheangel

Hawk321 wrote: »

@alan2308
Regarding to networkbulls
I wonder why we don't have such companies here in germany. Sure 5 days powerpoint warrior seminars for 5000$ without any practice.....it is like a chicken egg problem. Companies need the CCNA levels and more than that CCNP levels...but if no one is teaching that here for a affordable price...we (the western world) will get a problem soon.

While I'm sure there are dumping schools or classes that propagate **** all around the world, the reason you don't see them in mass in most western countries probably has to do with the legal system and copyright laws. The EU generally has a harmonised copyright law and a legal system that works pretty quickly. India does have copyright laws, their copyright laws have a VERY different standard than the rest of the western world (i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameshwari_Photocopy_Service_shop_copyright_case) and their legal system is infamously bogged down (27 million court cases+ currently bogged down and behind). Sprinkle in some cultural differences in what is accepted and defined as cheating and there you go.

Hawk321

Originally Posted by IrisTheAngel
Misrepresenting yourself as having credentials you do not have opens you up but even then, I doubt most companies would try to "make a stone bleed" by suing a random prospective employee or employee. There's not really a lot of money to make there but a lot of legal fees for the company to incur even if they win. The would-be employees want to get a leg up in the job world and they think the pretty piece of paper is all they need.

In Germany it is totally normal. Sure, the employer has the risk by evaluating and testing a potential candidate...but if a future employee really cheated, he loses his job immediately plus he has the risk that the company wants his salary back and other compensations.

Originally Posted by IrisTheAngel
the reason you don't see them in mass in most western countries probably has to do with the legal system and copyright laws.

Nope...they do it almost all, specially those institutes who "train" long term unemployed people. Our social security system pays the cost for pro exams in special situations like you are unemployed for a couple of month and a company is willed to hire you in case you do exam XYZ. But it often got abused and butchers, baker etc. get after an unemployment period of 5 years a IT Course like "become a MCSA and Linux Pro in 3 month"...those all ****. I had once the situation where I was fooled by such a company.

I was not unemployed at this time, but visited a course...the MS MCT only used ****, he did not know IPv6, PowerShell or anything network related. I quit, sent the evidence to redmond and he is no longer MCT !

A former co student reported me one story, where he attended a CCNA Sec class by a global well known training center. They did some powerpoint foils....and ****. Price around 4000$ -military paid it-.

I will test india, and also how good a online class is.

Iristheangel

Not totally normal - I have pretty of friends and family in Germany and there's not a whole lot of lawsuits. The problem is that you can't completely prove someone cheated vs they just forgot something. It would have to be pretty high profile or something that is extremely blantent and yet somehow missed in the technical interview or else everyone would be scared of getting jobs since one messup could lead to a lawsuit.

As far as the classes that support ****, they're always around but they're less blatant or wide spread in western countries (i.e. promising first time passes for CCIEs, selling CCIE ****, etc) because the risk of lawsuit is more immediate. It doesn't mean there isn't random schools that hand out **** - but they don't base their whole marketing on it or try to be as blatent.

You will test India?

Hawk321

Iristheangel wrote: »

Not totally normal - I have pretty of friends and family in Germany and there's not a whole lot of lawsuits. The problem is that you can't completely prove someone cheated...

Easy ! Ask simple questions like

how is your english
which author wrote the exam book
which ios version is on your router/switch

Often those guys tell you frankly -> "yes I had those q&a's". Have seen it so often and got taught in that way.

You will test India?

It's my plan to do a trip and try it out. If it's braindump bootcamp, we will know it than for sure.

Iristheangel

Ummm... I would not recommend giving money to a suspected braindump bootcamp just "to see." In the end, you're giving them money to break NDA. Just stick with reputable providers

Rave18

Deleted.