NO MORE CCIE ????? with SDN- what do you guys think?

hi guys with the cisco pushing APIC. to me there is no more reason to study CCIE ? who can anyone get this kind of technology to practice on if the CLI is gone and no more study of current network engineering labs i mean who can get a hold of free APIC ?
to practice on for CCIE. currently you have sims with command line? now what we just learn gui and fill in the boxes.
i am sick to my stomach I have so much curreent information was gong to take Narbik CCIE boot but why? why even study it anylonger if it is going to webpage guis? how is that going to work we just trust the machine to do it for us? weird
i am having a hard time to understand the new ccie going forwards? what do we do guys? I am studying ccie r/s now and just be like someone punch me in the mouth?

https://mkto.cisco.com/rs/564-WHV-323/images/DemystifyingSDN_Whitepaper.pdf?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiT1dNMU5ESmlZalJqWkRVNSIsInQiOiIwXC9pSnV5ZzNtdkJ1SUF6WUJqejlnVUpaVEhjclhkME9yYmRSelRSeUF2QXhvTmRzeXBWMzdVME1VQnJESE5pN3Zva0VIUTRoK0RpUElxbzFET2JMcGR6KzViYjBHUzFHc294WWJHcFUraVZCaDh2MEZzM1UwblpMZU5FSkJYUnUifQ%3D%3D

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chopsticks

See it coming but didn't realise now there is no future for being a Cisco Network Engineer.

Iristheangel

And if your overlay or underlay breaks, what do you do? Not every company is going to go sdn and underneath all that fancy abstraction is the same protocols that you study on the CCIE exams. If you need to troubleshoot something at an expert level and your sdn controller is telling you everything is gravy, you think there won't be use for your expert level BGP, ISIS, Vxlan, etc skills?

itdaddy

I am not being negative. Just read the article I posted in the link. Cisco is driving CCIE away into Gui land who can study with that?
how can you be a ccie now? just gui and a controller...I am confused now...I know it takes time but still when? is the point?

Iristheangel

It doesn't mean you will have to do the CCIE entirely from the GUI. For example, the CCIE DC has ACI but also a cli and an API you can access for quicker deployment or deeper troubleshooting.

Iristheangel

I don't know how that white paper means the cli will go away or that being an expert doesn't mean you have to understand the constructs under that controller and abstraction.

This is like the story of chicken little. If an acorn falls on your head, it does not mean the sky is falling

itdaddy

agreed. but you read it right. it is from Cisco. Hey Irist Angel you work at Cisco what do they say? or can you even say? the article to me destroys all CLI and just wonder how us common folk can even study CCIE now. I have some nice sims like GNS3 and IOU and some devices like switches but how can I study if they use some kind of expensive appliance? just hard to understand...the machine is now the expert at the program not humans anymore..what do they tell you at Cisco can you say? or no? thanks for responding. I am just loving my studies with CCIE R/S and saw this whitepaper.

Iristheangel

No, it doesn't destroy the CLI. It just talks about new tools so you don't have to resort to manual changes and messups. Much like adding and removing VLANs from a trunk port can result in manual mess-ups. There's no hidden message here or something I'm keeping secret from Cisco. *Some* people will utiize SDN and even the ones that do will need to have experts to troubleshoot if/when SDN breaks because at the end of the day, the "guts" of SDN is the protocols we study in the CCIE and still have to be troubleshot in the same way.

clarson

did they quit teaching math now that everyone has a calculator within arms reach.
did spreadsheets put on end to accountants. did databases put anyone out of work?
is ansible doing away with the sysadmin?

the jobs have evolved into doing more high level and more knowledgable jobs.

the quantity of devices and devices yet to be invented, will keep even more people that know what they are doing busy for many more years to come.

itdaddy

IristTHEANGEL,

thanks for you advice. agreed but I am only a small fish. And Narbik said the same thing you did! great minds think a like! thank you for you hope now back to my CCIE r/s study! yeah! hammer time. you are awesome!

itdaddy

well said...agreed but when you read SDN they speak of (implied to me) to get rid of all commands

itdaddy

omgosh had narbik call me back (felt like a kid and the president called me ) wowwo haahhhaha he told me the facts about SDN is said maybe someday coming but you stilll need to know the underlying commands cause SDN uses them...so pressing on to CCIE r/S.!!!!!!

hurricane1091

SDN still years away from any sort of adoption, regardless of what anyone here wants to say. Big wigs will move to it quicker then your smaller companies but yeah, I can't see full blown SDN data centers being the norm for most here any time soon. I work for a company of 2500 people. What really is in it for us to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars right now to support SDN? It's really not a complex environment, I'm still going to be getting paid to be here, I just don't fathom it happening. Even stuff like iWAN/SD WAN never takes any sort of real traction for many because it's cost prohibitive. If bandwidth is really an issue, it's cheaper to just increase the bandwidth on the circuit while still having a slower backup circuit. If the price to move to SDN is cost prohibitive, it does not happen for a good while. There has to be an incentive to do it, and for many people the incentive is not there.

And just to elaborate, think about this. Adding a new VLAN to your infrastructure means allowing that VLAN on a bunch of trunks. You could A) do it all manually

write a playbook with ANSIBLE or something similiar or C) maybe one day be able to make this happen somewhat automagically through SDN. That last option sounds good to me. Battling the different commands on different pieces of equipment also is not great, so if that can be solved via SDN, then I am all for it.

EdTheLad

SDN in its current form is a fancy provisioning tool, it is an elaborate script which can perform multi vendor e2e provisioning. If during provisioning of a service one device throws up an error, the whole service can be automatically backed out. The key part is, it uses a common language NetConf/Yang to talk to different vendor equipment. Managing a core network via SDN is years away, a small enterprise which doesn't have tight sla's is possible but still in the infancy stage.

NuclearBeavis

I'd still like to get a CCIE one day. Hopefully it'll still be around and worthwhile by the time I get to it. I have this fear it'll go the way of Novell's CNE by then.

ccie14023

SDN abstracts complexity, it doesn't make it go away. Networks are still inherently complex. A computer network is a large distributed system consisting of different device types and operating systems trying to communicate over standard protocols. Someone will always be needed to know how it works. Even fancy Teslas need a mechanic who can turn a wrench and use a grease gun. In fact, SDN can make networks more complex because the controllers allow for more complex configs to be pushed. Network engineers aren't going away. How we interact with the network will change, but we'll still be here. Think of a pilot flying a glass cockpit, modern airplane. He still needs to know about aerodynamics, engine systems, weather, etc. It's how he interacts with the machine that has changed since the days of dials and knobs. The CCIE program managers are very good at updating their content and will continue to do so. The test will evolve, but I think it will continue to be relevant.

d4nz1g

Its just like folks think that SDN is a magic button that provisions everything you need onto your network gear.
Even with SDN/automation/orchestration you still need to know what to push to the devices and where to do so. How are you going to provision a , lets say, L3VPN if you don't know i'ts building blocks (BGP or IGP peering with CE, vrf, route leaking, and etc)?

Even with current netconf implementations you need to know what is going on in the background. Automation and orchestration just eliminates the need of logging into X devices to apply a given config, it does not eliminate the need of knowing what is actually being implemented in your infrastructure.

--chris--

Iristheangel wrote: »

And if your overlay or underlay breaks, what do you do? Not every company is going to go sdn and underneath all that fancy abstraction is the same protocols that you study on the CCIE exams. If you need to troubleshoot something at an expert level and your sdn controller is telling you everything is gravy, you think there won't be use for your expert level BGP, ISIS, Vxlan, etc skills?

Iris hits the nail on the head.

I am far from an expert but I know some stuff. We just implemented Fortinet/Fortigate switching fabric with some SDN elements. When its working (like now) I don't need to know about STP elections, port fast, LACP, etc...but if the Fortigate is all "green" yet a switch is flagging I will be pretty damn happy the onsite tech (me) knows how to fix STP issues.

NuclearBeavis

While I think it's true there will always be a need for troubleshooters at the lower functional levels of things, it seems the need for quantity of those people becomes less and less over time with any given technology. Ten years from now there will definitely need to be people who understand all the routing and switching building blocks, but maybe not many when the average schlub can just blow out the twitchy software overlay and load a fresh install with a few clicks. Or after a thousand revisions of the overlay so that it's smart enough to fix itself 99.9% of the time.

It's kind of like how during the industrial revolution, replaceable parts became a thing, such as screws and bolts manufactured to tolerance. And in the 60's it was transistors or caps. Now, we just replace entire mechanical assemblies or circuit boards because they're become cheap and easy to produce. Board-level work is niche and more rare. I think the software portion of IT systems is likely analogous. It's not as necessary to dig deep into the CLI of an OS these days as it was 20 years ago. The software is smart...it can often fix itself. And if not, we can blow it out and start over. Sure, there are exceptions, which is why people will still be needed who understand the low level...not debating that. I just think industry will need fewer of them.

networker050184

Technology changes. Change with it or be left behind. Case closed.

MitM

CCIE is still a great certification to go for, if one has the drive and dedication to achieve it.

Technology is changing fast, so maybe the question becomes do you dedicate the amount of time necessary to pass the lab exam, or do you use that time to build a really strong foundation and focus more on current/future technologies

NOC-Ninja

As long as cisco is at the top of their game, there will always be a CCIE.
Also, CCIE changes you as a person. You'll find out once you go through the process.

fredrikjj

My view is that people who already are in senior positions will do fine (they will, for example, do the expert level troubleshooting iristheangel is talking about). The reduction in workforce will happen through simply not hiring as much as before, and the people that need junior roles to eventually grow into those senior positions will have a hard time finding them. Personally, it does feel like a pretty big mistake to have focused so much time and energy on networking when there are other fields with stronger demand.

Legacy User

That SDN article just sounds like a marketing article. But the part showing that this where it is getting blocked would be great to show the Network Security team that their firewalls are blocking legitimate traffic lol. Some companies will do some form of SDN or automation while some still are running catos since its not broken lol. Don't get bent out of shape it will still take years for companies to migrate to some form of automation until then your CLI skills would still be valuable.

My place already does automation with Netmri pushing config changes on a company wide scope. It makes like easier then going to each network device to add a snmp server or something. From what I see IT managers still highly respect CCIE stamp of approval and brag about it. CCNPs are run of the mill nowadays so its nothing special. CCIE is still what gets people excited.

One more you can lab with ACI on dcloud and the other cisco demo site for free! No need to get freaked out just keep learning and pick up skills your employer requires or what you see is hot and take it from there.

itdaddy

thanks guys and gals, WILL do. I still think learning all the CCIE under pinning cli is huge. it is how it is all connected the deep understanding of it all. I am studying now and see how much i don't know hahahahah but it is fun to learn and maybe master it but never thinking i now it all but it is the constant chase for more.thanks you all for the great insight!

boxerboy1168

Cisco is moving into a new direction. That's pretty clear from watching their Live 2017 show.

Fadakartel

boxerboy1168 wrote: »

Cisco is moving into a new direction. That's pretty clear from watching their Live 2017 show.

Automation and Cloud is the future, cli will still have some precedence, however based on everyting thats going on I think SDN will be the main way of networks in the next 10 year.

Kinda scary, but I guess that`s what we signed up for in IT. Best thing is to probably start learning python slowly i guess.

I`d rather do the CCIE but Cisco live 2017 was wow I don`t even feel the need for it anymore beyond ccnp.

joshuamurphy75

I'm a long way from CCIE level, but I'll probably go for it anyways. Studying this stuff is kind of my way of relaxing and escaping from the world.