Do Microsoft Certs Suck?

Grigsby

I know I am going to get flamed for this...

I don’t mean to offend anyone who has worked hard on there micorsoft certs either.

I just recently earned my CCNA. I liked the curriculum and material that I used to study for the certification. I enrolled in the Cisco Networking Academy and I really liked the class because it seemed like the networking fundamentals that you learn are universal in today’s computing environment. Virtually everyone uses TCP/IP.

But the MS certs are so proprietary. Do you really learn in depth material that is applicable to computing in general?<-- And I am seriously asking this b/c I don’t really know.

To me Microsoft seems a little Big Brother-ish. Also I don’t know that I would put so much investment into a software suite that could easily become obsolete? I know MS is a power house in business computing environment, but their certs seem to suck the general theory out of Computer Science b/c is it so proprietary. And who knows where they will be in 10-15 years.

I picked up the sybex book for the 70-270 exam, b/c I used one of the sybex books to help me prep for the 640-801. But I don’t find it as nearly as interesting. Should I just keep reading?

I want a career in computer science that will last for the rest of my life, not for the next couple of years.

!30

Hello man ,

Congrat's a good post , recently I become CCNA certified to , I wish to become then Linux+ or LPI certified or CCNP.

I hear about this cert's from a friend of mine , who's also a CCNA to , ( I know , I was convinced that Microsoft suck's , really convinced, I like Linux and Cisco).But I give Ms a try , I begin reading MS 70-290 and I found that there are a lot of thing's to learn ( for your general culture , if you want to know , you must begin with the basics ) or for a job.

Now I'm on 70-270 and I like it , really , I don't even realize that Windows XP , has so many interesting thning's to know , as that with beocome obsolvete , don't ever mind , this are the basic's and if you don't know the basic's you cannot learn the rest.

Give it a try , there are many interesting thing's , thath will open you a job path , and a new mind , this world is faboulous to

sprkymrk

MS may be the big brother of Operating Systems, but Cisco is the Big Brother of Internetworking equipment and is JUST as proprietary. Learning Cisco won't teach you how to use Extreme routers and switches or 3Com equipment. Cisco knowledge won't help you configure Linux or BSD routers and firewalls. Where will Cisco be in 10-15 years?

I think you can look at Novell as an example. About 10 years ago Novell was the only network OS player in town. Thousands of IT guys got their Novell certs and did well with them. Then NT4 came out and MS began to catch up and pass Novell. However, the guys who were certified in Novell's products kept up with the game and just added the MS certs as well. Getting certified in Novell didn't hurt their careers, it was just what they had to do at that time. I believe the same will go for MS, Cisco, Solaris or whatever. Do what you have to in order to get in the game, and then along the way do what it takes to stay in the game.

strauchr

Nah, don't get MS certs. They are the worst. Dam MS for giving me a great career with lots of possibilities and a much higher than average pay packet, dam them to hell.

rossonieri#1

sprkymrk wrote:

MS may be the big brother of Operating Systems, but Cisco is the Big Brother of Internetworking equipment and is JUST as proprietary. Learning Cisco won't teach you how to use Extreme routers and switches or 3Com equipment. Cisco knowledge won't help you configure Linux or BSD routers and firewalls. Where will Cisco be in 10-15 years?

almost agree

well, the basic/foundation pretty much the same both OS and the equipment - but indeed there are a little bit differences/approaches about how to operate/manage a single subject.

cheers.

bighornsheep

Check out http://www.mcpmag.com/ It's the Online Magazine for Microsoft Certified Professionals. There's a really good article about certification in general. It's funny you think that CCNA is more proprietary than Microsoft. Consider CCNA and MCSA

CISCO certified network associate
MICROSOFT certified system administrator

sounds pretty proprietary to me.

based on observation of domain objectives, I would say CompTIA is in general pretty applicable to general computing. Their A+ is pretty MS OS based, but that's probably because entry-level computer users will be using MS OS anyway, so the technican should know it. Their Network+, covers general cabling, routing, OSI layers, which are all generally open-standard.

Check out CompTIA and consider Network+, with your CCNA, it should be pretty easier for you to obtain.

Cheers!

mikej412

strauchr wrote:

Nah, don't get MS certs. They are the worst. Dam MS for giving me a great career with lots of possibilities and a much higher than average pay packet, dam them to hell.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. Those MS certs (and Linux) along with the CCNA could only get you into large serverfarm/data center and/or network operation center jobs where you could use both certs and get lots of experience. Better to hold off and aim for an ISP (who outsources all their servers and services) that only does networking.

Unfortunatly I have lots of MS experience -- I try to minimize it on my resume.... but at least I don't have the shame of also having MS certifications.

<< Reading the subject on the original post, I thought this was another Linux Zelot tirade -- imagine my horror to find it was by a cisco wonk! >>

computerguy9355

well i would go with cisco

one of my classmate knows everything about microsoft windows, from nt4.0 all the way to 2003, he is a consultant. And now he is doing cisco because they make more money.

well just think this way, microsoft is software based, while cisco is hardware based. which one is better? *considering all the outsourcing thats going on*

right, i agree with you to the certain point that if you get your ccnp, it won't help you much to configure other vendor products. However have you ever thought of most of the underlying technololgies are the same? i am willing to bet you that other routers like extreme networks use the same routing protocols as cisco routers EXCEPT the propertiary routing protocols.

yeah sure, you just have to be constantly learning in the fast-paced I.T. field. Sooner or later you will realize you have to specialize. You don't just go out and obtain all the certifications out there.

strauchr

computerguy9355 wrote:

well just think this way, microsoft is software based, while cisco is hardware based. which one is better? *considering all the outsourcing thats going on*

Are you serious? Cisco IOS is software and runs on Cisco hardware. Windows is software that runs on servers. Both require h/w and a lot of remote admin including some onsite work.

Whats the difference?

strauchr

computerguy9355 wrote:

one of my classmate knows everything about microsoft windows, from nt4.0 all the way to 2003, he is a consultant. And now he is doing cisco because they make more money.

Thats not entirely correct. I know some Cisco engineers that changed to MS for extra money. It depends where you are I guess.

keatron

computerguy9355 wrote:

well i would go with cisco

one of my classmate knows everything about microsoft windows, from nt4.0 all the way to 2003, he is a consultant. And now he is doing cisco because they make more money.

He knows EVERYTHING about windows? intertesting. Give him my contact info.

computerguy9355 wrote:

well just think this way, microsoft is software based, while cisco is hardware based. which one is better? *considering all the outsourcing thats going on*
.

Keep in mind, these two skill sets don't compete with each other, they compliment each other.

computerguy9355 wrote:

right, i agree with you to the certain point that if you get your ccnp, it won't help you much to configure other vendor products. However have you ever thought of most of the underlying technololgies are the same? i am willing to bet you that other routers like extreme networks use the same routing protocols as cisco routers EXCEPT the propertiary routing protocols..

Of course; routing is routing. Just different ways of doing it.

computerguy9355 wrote:

yeah sure, you just have to be constantly learning in the fast-paced I.T. field. Sooner or later you will realize you have to specialize. You don't just go out and obtain all the certifications out there.

This is very true, however, before you specialize in anything you have to have a solid foundation as to the basics.

bighornsheep

This thread is starting to sound alot like the classic question, "Does MS Windows suck?"

I remember how my first-year Java professor commented about the switch from Visual Basic to Java as the first-year programming language.

"Almost anything in computing is simply a tool, the computers themselves are tools, dont look too much above and beyond that unless you want be the tool."

I think that certifications in general, and MS certificates particularly will help to complete a task, if you find that Cisco certs help you better, sure swing that way! I personally found, and perhaps others may agree, it's better to have more than one tool/skill.

JDMurray

bighornsheep wrote:

"Almost anything in computing is simply a tool, the computers themselves are tools, dont look too much above and beyond that unless you want be the tool."

So, uh, if I prefer Java over VB--or visa versa--am I making myself a tool, or is something else making me a tool? I'm not quite syncing with your prof's particular blending of philosophy and computer science.

Webmaster

bighornsheep wrote:

This thread is starting to sound alot like the classic question...

The topic's subject itself would have made send it straight to our black hole forum. But then I would have missed these great replies, ie.

strauchr wrote:

Nah, don't get MS certs. They are the worst. Dam MS for giving me a great career with lots of possibilities and a much higher than average pay packet, dam them to hell.

Microsoft certifications have served me very well too, I'm not saying Cisco hasn't, on the contrary, but the subject of this topic shows to me so many teachers are wrong when claiming there are no stupid questions. How could a certification from the manufacturer of the most widely used server and client (yes, I read a report recently they now also rule the server market) operating systems 'suck' in terms of affecting your carreer...

Webmaster

jdmurray wrote:

bighornsheep wrote:

"Almost anything in computing is simply a tool, the computers themselves are tools, dont look too much above and beyond that unless you want be the tool."

So, uh, if I prefer Java over VB--or visa versa--am I making myself a tool, or is something else making me a tool? I'm not quite syncing with your prof's particular blending of philosophy and computer science.

Sounds like something that would confuse even the Chinese.

But I agree with the professor if his point is not to prefer one over the other just because you 'like' or 'dislike' Microsoft for example. If you "prefer Java over VB--or visa versa" I bet you have better reasons just than 'feelings' towards one or both. Surely it influences the preference, but it shouldn't have 'too much' influence.

And if you do let it influence you too much, you risk being transformed into a hammer, or a port scanner.

bighornsheep

jdmurray wrote:

bighornsheep wrote:

"Almost anything in computing is simply a tool, the computers themselves are tools, dont look too much above and beyond that unless you want be the tool."

So, uh, if I prefer Java over VB--or visa versa--am I making myself a tool, or is something else making me a tool? I'm not quite syncing with your prof's particular blending of philosophy and computer science.

I think he means that as computer users, we shouldnt be subjective about any tools. It's fine to think that Java is 'better' or VB is 'better' because it's ___ and that it has ___ but I dont think it's right to think that a particular tool is best, and everything else sucks.

bighornsheep

Webmaster wrote:

jdmurray wrote:

bighornsheep wrote:

"Almost anything in computing is simply a tool, the computers themselves are tools, dont look too much above and beyond that unless you want be the tool."

So, uh, if I prefer Java over VB--or visa versa--am I making myself a tool, or is something else making me a tool? I'm not quite syncing with your prof's particular blending of philosophy and computer science.

Sounds like something that would confuse even the Chinese.

But I agree with the professor if his point is not to prefer one over the other just because you 'like' or 'dislike' Microsoft for example. If you "prefer Java over VB--or visa versa" I bet you have better reasons just than 'feelings' towards one or both. Surely it influences the preference, but it shouldn't have 'too much' influence.

And if you do let it influence you too much, you risk being transformed into a hammer, or a port scanner.

HEY! I'm chinese! hahaha.... but yes, I agree, it's standard professionalism to try and be as objective as possible and avoid 'feelings'.

Grigsby

I guess what I was trying to get at was that I want to continue my education, and if I am going to do that, certs are a pretty good way to go b/c you gain the knowledge as well as the popular certification name.

For my CCNA I think I learned a lot of fundamentals of networking that I did not know before. There is a lot of proprietary stuff in there as well, but you also learn standards that everyone has to adhere to. Do you gain the same benefit from MS certs? I hope so, b/c it will probably be the mose lucractive and logical way to go.

Webmaster

bighornsheep wrote:

HEY! I'm chinese! hahaha.... but yes, I agree, it's standard professionalism to try and be as objective as possible and avoid 'feelings'.

Haha, well, no pun intended, I like Chinese sayings.

it's standard professionalism to try and be as objective as possible and avoid 'feelings'.

Agreed, "professionalism" and 'objective' are the keywords. And I my experience, those who actually worked in IT a couple of years (having to get their hands dirty with Microsoft and both Linux for example) will quickly realize one is not better than the other, just different, and better suitable for certain purposes.

Webmaster

Grigsby wrote:

There is a lot of proprietary stuff in there as well, but you also learn standards that everyone has to adhere to. Do you gain the same benefit from MS certs?

Microsoft rules the OS market, i.o.w. they set their standards, to which everyone (who runs a Microsoft product) has to adhere just as much as 'everyone does to non- 'proprietary stuff'. Just as with Cisco certifications, you will learn lots of technologies that do not related only to microsoft products, such as tcp/ip, security protocols, remote access protocols, x509 certs, encryption technologies, radius, and many other protocols and services. But, apart from learning the basics of these, you will learn to implement them the Microsoft-way using Microsoft products. Which is a good thing since most companies use Microsoft produtcs. But, again, it will be 'the Microsoft way', which certainly doesn't always adhere to standards. You can't learn about client, server, network operating systems without digging into at least one of the available operating systems. If you enjoy working with one in particular, ie. Linux, you could always have a look at Linux certifications, as both Linux and Microsoft operating systems will be around for some time.

JDMurray

bighornsheep wrote:

I think he means that as computer users, we shouldnt be subjective about any tools. It's fine to think that Java is 'better' or VB is 'better' because it's ___ and that it has ___ but I dont think it's right to think that a particular tool is best, and everything else sucks.

OK, I infer that the language used by the class was changed from VB to Java by an authority that believed Java is the best programming language and all others suck (at least those invented by Microsoft). Your prof disagreed with this assessment and was making a very abstract and politically-correct reference to his disapproval. He probably regarded the Java-centric authority as a "tool of Java." In contrast, the authority probably regarded him/herself as a "Java evangelist."

mikey_b

Almost all certifications are proprietary, they exist to certifiy people's competence in a specific product or line of products. It is no different between Microsoft or Cisco or any other vendor.

Microsoft certifications do not "suck". The material may be dry or uninteresting, but that can be said about the materials for any one of a number of certifications. Look at the number of MCSE's out there, people are all over that certification for obvious reasons, including career progression and wage/salary increases - certainly enough to convince me!

However, the amount of material covered goes in depth to detail a lot of topics that are not MS-specific, but rather the implementation of them are (like DNS and DHCP, these technologies are supported on multiple platforms and the knowledge aquired during the training for MS products can be applied in other ways to other products).

Any good product has a lot of staying power - and as far as OS technology goes, MS is on top. Linux and UNIX zealots may disagree, but MS will be around for a long time and that is one of the reasons why IT professionals around the world choose MS certifications to advance their careers.

sprkymrk

Grigsby wrote:

For my CCNA I think I learned a lot of fundamentals of networking that I did not know before. There is a lot of proprietary stuff in there as well, but you also learn standards that everyone has to adhere to. Do you gain the same benefit from MS certs?

This would have been a much better way to open this thread than asking if MS certs suck.
Beyond the CompTIA, CISSP and SANS certifications, they are almost all proprietary. By studying MS you will also gain knowledge and insight into RADIUS/IAS, TCP/IP, IPSec, Kerberos, PKI, DHCP, DNS, hardware/drivers, scripting (VBScript, Shell, etc), RAID, backups, disaster recovery, Web/FTP servers, networking, Printers, client/server models, Directory Services/LDAP, Remote Access technologies, etc., etc., etc.... Notice that while many of these items are implemented with a MS bias, they are in no way restricted to MS networks. The concepts and best practices will carry over into the Novell, Linux/Unix, BSD and Solaris areas as well.

TeKniques

Grigsby wrote:

But the MS certs are so proprietary. Do you really learn in depth material that is applicable to computing in general?<-- And I am seriously asking this b/c I don’t really know.

Huh? Almost every cert is proprietary. I didn't read through the whole thread, but I am sure someone has pointed out that your CCNA is proprietary too!

Grigsby wrote:

To me Microsoft seems a little Big Brother-ish. Also I don’t know that I would put so much investment into a software suite that could easily become obsolete?

I think the last survey said that MS owns 90% of the OS market. There is not going to be any revolution if any anytime soon.

Grigsby wrote:

I know MS is a power house in business computing environment, but their certs seem to suck the general theory out of Computer Science b/c is it so proprietary. And who knows where they will be in 10-15 years.

Well, I don't think your CCNA does much for the theory of Computer Science either. In fact, I think you would use more CS skills with MS then Cisco because you can program a lot of the features on MS products. I could be wrong, but maybe some Cisco guys can let me know if you can manually program the IOS?

Grigsby wrote:

I want a career in computer science that will last for the rest of my life, not for the next couple of years.

Then become a developer and stay on top of the technology. I'm not sure what being a Cisco engineer has to do with Computer Science, unless I am totally off base I thought a Computer Science person was more interested in development and software engineering instead of Information Systems so to speak. I know they can go hand in hand, but it seems to me a Cisco engineer would benefit more with a BS in IT or IS rather than CS.

bighornsheep

jdmurray wrote:

bighornsheep wrote:

I think he means that as computer users, we shouldnt be subjective about any tools. It's fine to think that Java is 'better' or VB is 'better' because it's ___ and that it has ___ but I dont think it's right to think that a particular tool is best, and everything else sucks.

OK, I infer that the language used by the class was changed from VB to Java by an authority that believed Java is the best programming language and all others suck (at least those invented by Microsoft). Your prof disagreed with this assessment and was making a very abstract and politically-correct reference to his disapproval. He probably regarded the Java-centric authority as a "tool of Java." In contrast, the authority probably regarded him/herself as a "Java evangelist."

My professor was commenting on the fact that the school authority made the decision to switch based on 'Java is better, and VB is no good anymore. First-year should learn java because Java is the future.' My prof believed that with computing, and technology, today's outdate could be tomorrow's leading edge, as is the case with Query by Example according to him.
But in any case, I think he made a good case that we shouldnt treat techology (or certifications) solely because of present value, as there is a sense of unmeasurable future value for all present costs. One may think that they've spent too much on a particular certificate, but that one piece of paper (or perhaps the wallent card, or the cool Label Pin) may get one a good job.

Grigsby wrote:

For my CCNA I think I learned a lot of fundamentals of networking that I did not know before. There is a lot of proprietary stuff in there as well, but you also learn standards that everyone has to adhere to. Do you gain the same benefit from MS certs?

Microsoft certs themselves probably will not bring forth any general networking knowledge because that's not the point of their MS Learning/MCP program.

They want to you go to them and get certified with MS software because they know that people are buying and using them. By certifying and learning how to use the various MS environments, you can get a job, and make some money. The point of MCP/MCSA/MCSE is not for you to learn about 'computers' in general, it's for you to learn and get certified in a specific microsoft environment.

I would say general networking/computing is taught at colleges and universities, certifications is a form of proving that knowledge in the real-world.

RTmarc

One thing that I think has not been mentioned is that no certification is a waste or "sucks". Sure some may be more "elite" (I hate using that word for this) and will hold more weight versus others (i.e, MCSE > MCP, CCNP > CCNA, etc.) but in the end all the certification is intended to do is prove to your employer that you have a particular level of experience with a particular product (Microsoft Server 2003, XP, etc.) or concept (Security+, CEH, etc.). There are no certifications out there that an employer will look down upon you having.

I feel obligated to echo a few comments that have already been made several times. MCP, MCSA, and MCSE are no more proprietary than CCNA, CCNP, and CCIE. With the exception of the CompTIA exams, that vast majority of all exams and certifications are proprietary. There are exceptions out there but that's not the point.

We take these certs to prove that we specialize in a particular philosophy. If I am looking to hire someone to work in my Linux server farm, am I going to hire the person with MCSE or the one that has whatever the expert level Linux certification is? Reverse the situation, if I am looking for someone to run my Windows farm, will I hire the MCSE or the Linux guy? Because I went the Microsoft path means that I am no better or no worse than someone that went the Linux path; depending on the situation and the hiring requirements.

Another thing that I think offends a lot of people with what you said, and the way you did so, is because of what most people had to go through to get the new generation of Microsoft certifications. The Microsoft exams are no longer a laughing matter; as they were a few years ago. Let's face it, the early days of Microsoft certification were a joke! Now, there are some exams with - I've read - a 79% first time fail rate or higher; seems like 291 was an 86% first time fail rate but I could be wrong. People had to absolutely work their tails off to obtain a Microsoft certification. Again, echoing someone else, how can you go wrong with being Microsoft certified in a market that is predominently Microsoft?

Slowhand

I think on this topic, it's not "Do MS Certs Suck?" It's really "Have MS Certs gotten away from the stigma of being a (toilet) paper cert? I think in the age of the 2003 MCSA/MCSE track, less and less people are using **** or bootcamps to get the tests done. People are learning that you need to study, you need to learn, and that Active Directory is a monster that cannot simply be braindumped and you can go to work on it.

This brings me to my version of the answer: "Do MS certifications suck?" In a word, no. If you earn your MCSE, if you really nail down AD, it's probably the most valuable systems admin certification out there. Like mentioned earlier in this thread, there have been other players in the market. Cisco is the be-all and end-all of internetworking and routing. Novell used to be the only player in the network OS market, but now Microsoft's Active Directory is the engine that drives a good chunk of the IT world. There's no way to know which way the tide will turn, who will be the next Microsoft. For now, though, being an MCSE is a good thing; and it's getting better and better to be one.

On another note, the market is a little fickle where I live. I live pretty close to the San Jose/Silicon Valley area, and here it's pretty damn cut-throat. The payrates are high, the cost of living is astronomical, and the competition is brutal. Most jobs will ask for a specialization, such as being an MCSE, and will ask for lots of extra experience and certifications. If you're going for a job that requires Cisco certification, you're generally going up against a lot of CCNA's and CCNP's that are also MCSE or RHCE certified, or have some significant amount of experience with system admin type of work.

I guess the lesson is, if you're going to specialize, make sure that it's not the only thing you've got. CCNA is excellent, and will give you an edge, but don't frown on getting your head around the various Windows technologies. . . and the major Linux distros. . . and Solaris. . . and Exhange. . . and C++. . . and. . . well, you get the idea. Never settle for one thing, when you can learn lots and lots more.

JDMurray

bighornsheep wrote:

My professor was commenting on the fact that the school authority made the decision to switch based on 'Java is better, and VB is no good anymore. First-year should learn java because Java is the future.'

School administrators make these kind of decisions not because of expertise, but because of funding. IBM and Sun Microsystems (Java) are giving the school more funding than Microsoft (VB and .NET). If Microsoft were to make a generous donations, you'd find the school authorities suddenly trumpeting that C# and Visual Basic 2005 are the best languages for first-years to learn. That's the game for both software and hardware. I think Apple Computers invented this game back in the early 1980's.

Slowhand

jdmurray wrote:

School administrators make these kind of decisions not because of expertise, but because of funding. IBM and Sun Microsystems (Java) are giving the school more funding than Microsoft (VB and .NET). If Microsoft were to make a generous donations, you'd find the school authorities suddenly trumpeting that C# and Visual Basic 2005 are the best languages for first-years to learn. That's the game for both software and hardware. I think Apple Computers invented this game back in the early 1980's.

This is very true. A lot of schools make decisions based on funding or "politics". At my college, there is really only one software engineering professor, so he has total say in what is taught and what languages are used. Up until this point it's only been C/C++, but he was forced to include Java in the program, due to extreme pressure from UC Berkeley, where a majority of the Computer Science students were transferring to. From the other end of the spectrum, our school is a Microsoft Partner, and therefore a lot of the information systems courses are taught in Windows, and we really only have the MCSE track for professional training. Our counterpart, further north, is a Cisco affiliate, and has Cisco Academy classes and is fairly heavy on SuSE Linux.

You go with what they teach, what you need, and what you like. In most workplaces, you find yourself learning a new operating system, a new programming language, or simply a whole new way to perform the same tasks you've always done, based on what they're using.

strauchr

Well all I'll say is that despite all hype and the negative talk about MS I have managed to have a great career earning good money and MS has managed to gain a more solid foothold in the industry.

Don't listen to hype just go with what you enjoy or failing that with what will get you employed.

Yes there are a lot of useless MS certified people - its a real bad reputation. But I can assure you I have come across many useless certified people in my time, including Cisco people. Its an unfortunate part of our industry which will hopefully die out completely.

ajs1976

Grigsby wrote:

For my CCNA I think I learned a lot of fundamentals of networking that I did not know before. There is a lot of proprietary stuff in there as well, but you also learn standards that everyone has to adhere to. Do you gain the same benefit from MS certs? I hope so, b/c it will probably be the mose lucractive and logical way to go.

Back in the day (NT 4.0 MCSE and earlier), there was an exam called Network Essentials that was part of the MCSE core exams. When the Network+ came out and picked up steam, MS removed the Network Essentials exam from the new exam track (Windows 2000). It is assumed that before you start the MCSE that you will have some networking background. I'm assuming that is why the A+ and Network+ combo counts as an elective.