CCIE: Academy or self-study?

I'm about to finish the CCNP (new version) in a local academy. The quality of the academy is quite good, we've got a lot of equipement for all the modules and we made a lot of labs, in other words I'm satisfied of the investment.
I'm still undecided whether to attend the ccie r&s course in the academy or try with self-study. I know myself and I know I can be quite tireless; I would make the most demanding labs with ****.com, the rest with dynamips.
What do you think? is it madness or I can make it?

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codered0001

the choice is simple and keep it simple..

if you can afford it then you should go for the academy it will always work as a catalyst, in contrast to self study which is slow and requires a lot of energy and time.

dtlokee

No matter what the road to CCIE is paved with countless hours of self study. You can take classes to help you along and may reduce the hours of self study required, and it may help motivate you and focus your efforts, but it will not prepare you for the CCIE lab. I spent about 600 hours in the lab and reading the DocCD/various other books on my way to passing the CCIE lab, and that was starting from a solid background with CCNP and CCIP.

marco_fera

dtlokee wrote:

starting from a solid background with CCNP and CCIP.

In relation to this, I was thinking to take CCIP before CCIE, because it gives you a stronger knowledge of BGP and MPLS, and also because it's a sort of deeper study of what I've already saw in CCNP.
However my teacher at the academy criticized the idea suggesting to take CCIE directly after CCNP, mainly because on the job market the CCIP is not seen as too different than CCNP.
In your opinion, how much valuable is the wisdom given by CCIP in the CCIE course?

shednik

marco_fera wrote:

dtlokee wrote:

starting from a solid background with CCNP and CCIP.

In relation to this, I was thinking to take CCIP before CCIE, because it gives you a stronger knowledge of BGP and MPLS, and also because it's a sort of deeper study of what I've already saw in CCNP.
However my teacher at the academy criticized the idea suggesting to take CCIE directly after CCNP, mainly because on the job market the CCIP is not seen as too different than CCNP.
In your opinion, how much valuable is the wisdom given by CCIP in the CCIE course?

Kinda sounds like the IE course may cost more money and they want you to attend that instead, IMHO.

marco_fera

shednik wrote:

marco_fera wrote:

dtlokee wrote:

starting from a solid background with CCNP and CCIP.

In relation to this, I was thinking to take CCIP before CCIE, because it gives you a stronger knowledge of BGP and MPLS, and also because it's a sort of deeper study of what I've already saw in CCNP.
However my teacher at the academy criticized the idea suggesting to take CCIE directly after CCNP, mainly because on the job market the CCIP is not seen as too different than CCNP.
In your opinion, how much valuable is the wisdom given by CCIP in the CCIE course?

Kinda sounds like the IE course may cost more money and they want you to attend that instead, IMHO.

Well, actually their CCIP course, considering all four modules, is more expensive than a RS written + RS boot camp.
I wouldn't attend again the BSCI, but this way the RS track would only be slightly more expensive.

tmlerdal

I diverted and am going through the CCIP tracks right now for exactly the reasons you described...little more indepth for BGP, QoS, and MPLs which were on the CCIE blueprint. Only thing, I'm doing it almost all Self Study. Through work we had a deal with SkillSoft and had access to all of the Cisco curriculum online. I sat through a pre-recorded class on BGP, but did the QoS self study, and will have to do MPLS self study as well.

Now, if I were paying for any of the training, I'd probably go straight to the CCIE R&S course.

dtlokee

The QoS and BGP sections are what you want from the CCIP, MPLS will be helpful for the written but there is no MPLS on the R+S lab. Considering the vastly different focus of the CCIP vs the CCNP I am suprised somone would say they are the same in the job market. I do training for a local ISP who is only interested in the CCIP courses and isn't looking for the BCMSN, ISCW, and ONT sections of the CCNP.

There is a list on the CCIE section of cisco.com that lists classes that apply to the CCIE.

http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/ccie/rs/training.html

That may be helpful.

I don't recommend a bootcamp unless you can retake it as meny times as you like. It's too much information with too little time to asorb it. The CCIE lab isn't about a high level overview but a detailed study of each topic down all the obscure options that can be used on a command.

mikej412

marco_fera wrote:

However my teacher at the academy criticized the idea suggesting to take CCIE directly after CCNP, mainly because on the job market the CCIP is not seen as too different than CCNP.

Does your teacher have a CCIE?

What does your experience in the job market tell you?

marco_fera

mikej412 wrote:

Does your teacher have a CCIE?

He has got a CCIE for instructors, not the "normal" CCIE.

mikej412 wrote:

What does your experience in the job market tell you?

Personally I've got only one year of experience

; not having finished CCNP I can't even tell with complete precision how much is valued CCNP in the Italian market.

dtlokee

marco_fera wrote:

mikej412 wrote:

Does your teacher have a CCIE?

He has got a CCIE for instructors, not the "normal" CCIE.

mikej412 wrote:

What does your experience in the job market tell you?

Personally I've got only one year of experience ; not having finished CCNP I can't even tell with complete precision how much is valued CCNP in the Italian market.

There is no "CCIE for Instructors". Is he a CCAI for the academy? If so that is not even close to a CCIE. He can't be a CCSI unless he works for a learning partner.

Mike rasied a good point there, might be something to think about.

mikej412

marco_fera wrote:

He has got a CCIE for instructors, not the "normal" CCIE.

Never heard of such a thing. And I don't think Cisco even offers a "CCIE Course." If we only had a CCIE who was also a CCSI who could answer this for sure.

Is your one year experience using your CCNA or does it involve networking? If not, you might want to consider using your CCNA to get an entry level networking job and start getting some experience while you're working on the CCNP.

Even if you get a CCNP (and the "book knowledge" to go with it) an experienced CCNA could probably beat you out on job interviews.

You might be able to get a job with a CCNP and no (or little) experience with a Cisco Business Partner if you can fill one of their required roles for their Business Partner Level -- but you might start out driving a delivery truck and racking the routers/switches.

With the CCIE there is a much greater expectation of experience. From the Cisco CCIE website:

You are expected to have an in-depth understanding of the topics in the exam blueprints and strongly encouraged to have three to five years of job experience before attempting certification.

marco_fera

dtlokee wrote:

He can't be a CCSI unless he works for a learning partner.

He's the owner of the academy. I do think he's quite competent in his field, he never missed a question, so my dilemma is not the teacher's preparation (however I admit I'm totally uninformed on Cisco certifications for instructors).
Mike pointed at Cisco's recommendation for job experience before attempting to take the CCIE, and that's why I thought at CCIP as a sort of cushion before CCIE. Note that after CCNA I've got one year of experience on traditional telephones and basic troubleshooting on cisco routers. Now I'm exclusively on cisco routers and switches in a bank.

dtlokee wrote:

I don't recommend a bootcamp unless you can retake it as meny times as you like. It's too much information with too little time to asorb it.

I'm a bit surprised by this: I thought the bootcamp was a must for everyone. So basically, provided that I exercise with emulators and renting racks, I can prepare for the lab without it?

dtlokee

No a boot camp is not required, there is no formal training requirement for CCIE, just study your butt off and go take the written then the lab. Be prepared, it took me about a year to do it of 10-15 hours per week average, sometimes as much as 40 hours in a week.

IMHO, regardless of how someone seems, if they haven't climbed the mountain I don't think I would want them leading me up it, even if they did sleep at a Holiday INN Express last night. The CCIE lab experience is not something you can read from a book, and I would want someone who can tell me about it from personal experience. It took me the first attempt just to realize some of the strategy about the lab that I didn't know. A qualified instructor may have taken that part of the learning curve out of the picture so I could walk in and get down to business.

btowntech

dtlokee wrote:

even if they did sleep at a Holiday INN Express last night

So it wasn't the pizza that did it for you it was the Holiday INN!

CCIE-4-HIRE

marco_fera wrote:

dtlokee wrote:

He can't be a CCSI unless he works for a learning partner.

He's the owner of the academy. I do think he's quite competent in his field, he never missed a question, so my dilemma is not the teacher's preparation (however I admit I'm totally uninformed on Cisco certifications for instructors).
Mike pointed at Cisco's recommendation for job experience before attempting to take the CCIE, and that's why I thought at CCIP as a sort of cushion before CCIE. Note that after CCNA I've got one year of experience on traditional telephones and basic troubleshooting on cisco routers. Now I'm exclusively on cisco routers and switches in a bank.

dtlokee wrote:

I don't recommend a bootcamp unless you can retake it as meny times as you like. It's too much information with too little time to asorb it.

I'm a bit surprised by this: I thought the bootcamp was a must for everyone. So basically, provided that I exercise with emulators and renting racks, I can prepare for the lab without it?

Cisco does contract out to other CCIE's to train their own employees. Scott Morris aka IPExpert, Brian Dennis aka InternetworkExpert, and I think Brad Ellis aka NLI have either themselves or their employees have instructed at Cisco. However, they may or may not be CCSI. A CCSI must adhere to the Cisco Curriculum. Cisco does use KnowledgeNet materials for the CCIE Lab Training (I own copies of the RS and Security Labs).

You instructor may be very experienced. I've met lots of CCNA's whose actual experience level is higher than their own level of certification. Your instructor may well be a CCNP or better. But if he were a CCIE, you would know it.

Turgon

Bootcamps and training can be beneficial but the instructors are not going to take the lab for you. Any CCIE is always going to depend on the work you put in on your own time. The time it takes you to clear the CCIE is a variable but in order to do so you need to have amassed enough time configuring and learning so that you have really *digested* what you need to master and what you need to know. You go through lot of pain configuring things on racks with no assistance and it's a VERY timeconsuming undertaking.

A lot of trial and error here on your own time to get to that point IMHO. There are many offerings these days sold to help you on your way but it's important not to buy in too hard to products (and this includes training courses) that you may think may shortcircuit the requirement to spend many hours under your own steam learning things. COD's and everything else have their place but you will not get upto lab standard relying on things like listening to lectures while you workout.

I have been working with cisco and following the certification process for 9 years now and during that time I have seen a multitude of training options emerge. This isn't a bad thing itself and you should elect to use what you think will be useful, but I have noticed more people drawn to the CCIE who seem less prepared to put the necessary work in these days. I think the marketing fluff is a factor here!

You have to put the hours in. Some people clear lab preparation in a relavtivly short period of elapsed time, as little as 3 months but during that time they put in a tremendous amount of work. Further they start the process sharp on many fundamentals and to get themselves to that pre-requisite point they did a LOT of work and perhaps enjoy a very hands on role in employment where they are constantly configuring things on a daily basis.

A generous employer can help with the opportunity to train on works time during the best hours of the day when you are fresh and alert. This really helps a lot. and can amount to the necessary hundreds of hours practice in a relatively short period of elapsed time i.e few months. For the weak like us, it's self study evenings and weekends after another demanding and tiring day at work and the occasional week off contracting (at cost) to fully immerse oneself in an entire week of hands on practice.

Good luck with it all.

marco_fera

Among the other things of course there's the price: is it normal to spend 5000 euros (excluding VAT) for a bootcamp? how much is it in your countries?

Project2501

@marco_fera

Wow 5000 euros (excluding VAT)? Boot camps in Australia (Perth) are AUS$5000 - $6000 inc GST. Of the top of my head that course your looking at would be about $12,500 Australian.

MrD

Yep, it's all about the hard-worked hours trudging through the CLI. I'm labbed up from 330am-9am M-F, 8-6 Saturday, & 11-5 Sunday. Have my lab coming up in a couple weeks...hopefully these long a## days will pay off

darkuser

CCIE-4-HIRE wrote:

marco_fera wrote:

dtlokee wrote:

He can't be a CCSI unless he works for a learning partner.

He's the owner of the academy. I do think he's quite competent in his field, he never missed a question, so my dilemma is not the teacher's preparation (however I admit I'm totally uninformed on Cisco certifications for instructors).
Mike pointed at Cisco's recommendation for job experience before attempting to take the CCIE, and that's why I thought at CCIP as a sort of cushion before CCIE. Note that after CCNA I've got one year of experience on traditional telephones and basic troubleshooting on cisco routers. Now I'm exclusively on cisco routers and switches in a bank.

dtlokee wrote:

I don't recommend a bootcamp unless you can retake it as meny times as you like. It's too much information with too little time to asorb it.

I'm a bit surprised by this: I thought the bootcamp was a must for everyone. So basically, provided that I exercise with emulators and renting racks, I can prepare for the lab without it?

Cisco does contract out to other CCIE's to train their own employees. Scott Morris aka IPExpert, Brian Dennis aka InternetworkExpert, and I think Brad Ellis aka NLI have either themselves or their employees have instructed at Cisco. However, they may or may not be CCSI. A CCSI must adhere to the Cisco Curriculum. Cisco does use KnowledgeNet materials for the CCIE Lab Training (I own copies of the RS and Security Labs).

brian dennis has worked for bell south and cisco
he left cisco to go out on his own

You instructor may be very experienced. I've met lots of CCNA's whose actual experience level is higher than their own level of certification. Your instructor may well be a CCNP or better. But if he were a CCIE, you would know it.