Whats beyond the CCIE?

In Voice, we have the CCIE in Voice which is an expert level certificate. So lets say a person has a CCIE in Voice and then gains lots of experience which he wants to manifest on a certificate. So whats the cert which is beyond and above the CCIE?

Secondly is it correct to equate CCIEs to Masters of Phds? (not accurately but just to give people an idea of how high the CCIE is?)

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Mishra

http://www.mcmcse.com/othercerts.shtml

Turgon

Dingdongbubble wrote:

In Voice, we have the CCIE in Voice which is an expert level certificate. So lets say a person has a CCIE in Voice and then gains lots of experience which he wants to manifest on a certificate. So whats the cert which is beyond and above the CCIE?

Secondly is it correct to equate CCIEs to Masters of Phds? (not accurately but just to give people an idea of how high the CCIE is?)

There is talk of an architect certification. There is the CCDE but that is a design certification on the same level as the CCIE.

CCIE qualifications are rather specialised. The architect qualification will be of interest to people with many years experience putting solutions together in a wide range of settings. The requirements will be strict to obtain this one, you will need to convince cisco of your applicable portfolio of experience.

The CCIE was known for years as the blackbelt or doctorate of networking. What you learn to obtain it should take you that plane. It demonstrates what you are capable of given technical constraints and time pressure and to some extent your intellect. It is a somewhat uncomfortable analogy however as comparing the CCIE to academic postgraduate studies is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

In terms of workrate, it's still difficult to compare. Generally you will be putting hundreds of hours in an attempt to obtain the CCIE covering a fierce body of learning. The same can be said for Masters and PhD programmes but not all. Some PhD's are far less gruelling. Progression to CCIE can take years of elapsed time. You do a lot of research to complete the CCIE but you do not add to a body of knowledge as you would with PhD results.

In terms of certification completion/survival rates..I don't have any figures but I would imagine the pass rates of Masters and PhD candidates is much higher than CCIE candidates.

Goldmember

CCIE is easier to get then PHD.

I would say a CCIE is a bachelors in networking.

2 CCIE would be a masters.

A bachelors in computer science is hard to get.

bighornsheep

Turgon wrote:

I don't have any figures but I would imagine the pass rates of Masters and PhD candidates is much higher than CCIE candidates.

That's because most people who would not pass and be successfully in getting their graduate degree (masters & doctorates) would not be accepted into the respective programs, whereas technically anyone can write the CCIE exam even if they have no prior qualifications.

Graduate schools will not accept students whom they can not see achieving the degree successfully, this may be slightly different and of a higher benchmark than bachelor's because the school relies on the success and achievements of their graduate work to build reputation and research endowment.

Goldmember wrote:

A bachelors in computer science is hard to get.

It's not that hard...

oh wait, I can only say that cause I have one already...

Turgon

bighornsheep wrote:

Turgon wrote:

I don't have any figures but I would imagine the pass rates of Masters and PhD candidates is much higher than CCIE candidates.

That's because most people who would not pass and be successfully in getting their graduate degree (masters & doctorates) would not be accepted into the respective programs, whereas technically anyone can write the CCIE exam even if they have no prior qualifications.

Graduate schools will not accept students whom they can not see achieving the degree successfully, this may be slightly different and of a higher benchmark than bachelor's because the school relies on the success and achievements of their graduate work to build reputation and research endowment.

Goldmember wrote:

A bachelors in computer science is hard to get.

It's not that hard... oh wait, I can only say that cause I have one already...

It's really a question of ones personal experience if you are to make what is a very difficult comparison between academia and something like the CCIE. They are different. There are many CCIE's on groupstudy who are well qualified academically in the sciences and engineering and come right out and said the CCIE was by far the hardest accomplishment. I have a BA(Hons) and a Masters and I would say it's definately up there. But this 'assessment' needs to be tempered by the volume of study required and your availability to do it!

Fulltime postgrads concentrate their time and energies on the requirements to get qualified (although not all, I know one PhD who said he spent most of his time in the pub). Many CCIE candidates are already holding down timeconsuming and demanding positions so covering the necessary out of hours can certainly be a challenge!

The other thing to consider is the disparte entry requirements. One could argue that the academic requirements to be admitted to postgraduate studies lends itself to ensuring Masters and PhD candidates are better equipped to see the programme through to completion.

But regardless of stricter entry requirements this doesn't mean postgraduate studies should be so much harder than completing a CCIE where the entry requirements are much looser. Many fine network engineers with good academic backgrounds fall short on the CCIE ask.

Goldmember

Many Engineers who hold CCIE's also fall short of getting Bachelors and Masters of SCience degrees.

The thing about Computer Science Degree is you need a lot of Math and Science courses.

Many Cisco Engineers would have a hard time with Math and Science, especially guys who had a hard time subnetting.

Its in my opinion that the CCIE has become overhyped in many ways. I agree that the certification is difficult because of sheer amount of time, but so is getting a computer science degree.

Getting a computer science degree is going to take most people at least 4 years, if not more.

Many people obtain the CCIE in less time.

Then you figure to get into a Masters program you need a good grades, a GRE score which shows you have a good understanding of the topics, and then you need to write a thesis.

Getting a Masters degree is computer science is a great feat, definitely harder then getting a CCIE.

Guys with computer science masters are writing protocols and standards whereas CCIE's are using the technologies for the most part.

blargoe

Comparing the process of getting a Computer Science degree to getting a CCIE is comparing apples to squirrels.

Besides that, the computer science degree takes 4 years because the university forces you to take that long with it. Without the structure that is imposed by a university and the requisite courses that most of them require that have nothing to do with math or computer science, I have no doubt that one could obtain the academic knowledge in less than half that time if they were so inclined.

mengo17

Dingdongbubble wrote:

In Voice, we have the CCIE in Voice which is an expert level certificate. So lets say a person has a CCIE in Voice and then gains lots of experience which he wants to manifest on a certificate. So whats the cert which is beyond and above the CCIE?

Secondly is it correct to equate CCIEs to Masters of Phds? (not accurately but just to give people an idea of how high the CCIE is?)

You cannot compare certifications against Degrees.... that is just my opinion.

darkuser

if someone gets all ccie's you'll be awarded the title of

master guru

Roger The Shrubber

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can 'nee' at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.

Turgon

Goldmember wrote:

Many Engineers who hold CCIE's also fall short of getting Bachelors and Masters of SCience degrees.

The thing about Computer Science Degree is you need a lot of Math and Science courses.

Many Cisco Engineers would have a hard time with Math and Science, especially guys who had a hard time subnetting.

Its in my opinion that the CCIE has become overhyped in many ways. I agree that the certification is difficult because of sheer amount of time, but so is getting a computer science degree.

Getting a computer science degree is going to take most people at least 4 years, if not more.

Many people obtain the CCIE in less time.

Then you figure to get into a Masters program you need a good grades, a GRE score which shows you have a good understanding of the topics, and then you need to write a thesis.

Getting a Masters degree is computer science is a great feat, definitely harder then getting a CCIE.

Guys with computer science masters are writing protocols and standards whereas CCIE's are using the technologies for the most part.

It's comparing apples and oranges. There are good number of CCIEs who contribute to Nanog and the development of RFCs and standards. Sure you need maths and science for a Computer science degree but the CCIE isn't a maths and science body of knowledge. It's rather different.

It requires a theoretical grounding but is primarily practical in nature, practical to the expert level There are people who have excelled at maths, science and engineering who have found the CCIE requirements very difficult and not just because of time. Conversely people with backgrounds in journalism have found it demanding but less difficult in terms of understanding. Very difficult to compare the two.

Dingdongbubble

Yes I agree we cant compare degrees and certs. How could I give a quick impression to a person about what level the CCIE is at? I wasnt trying to compare them but rather give a general and very basic comparison between the two. You could even call it a symbolic comparison.

Lets say in Voice, there the CCVP and beyond that is the CCIE in Voice. So whats beyond the CCIe in Voice?

snadam

blargoe wrote:

Comparing the process of getting a Computer Science degree to getting a CCIE is comparing apples to squirrels.

Besides that, the computer science degree takes 4 years because the university forces you to take that long with it. Without the structure that is imposed by a university and the requisite courses that most of them require that have nothing to do with math or computer science, I have no doubt that one could obtain the academic knowledge in less than half that time if they were so inclined.

an emphatic +1 and at about half the cost! Most universities MAKE you take a bunch of 'filler' classes along the way too.

undomiel

All this filler classes are probably the reason that I don't have my art degree right now. All that unnecessary work completely burns you out for the stuff you're really wanting to focus on.

AlexMR

The CCIE is overhyped (in terms of difficulty) because there are way too many people who have it or are pursuing who havent been engaged in undergrad engineering studies.

I found out yesterday that some guy I knew recently passed the lab for the CCIE r&s and ALMOST pass the security one

(i thought they didnt give you the results...?) . He has a computer science B.S. When i talked to him he was CCNP, CCSP and CCDP, and he told me it took him 4years to get there, but it was not the CLOSE to the same experience as being in university working for the B.S. He has been working and living life without stressing too much with the studies. He says he has kept a constant pace but nothing comparable to the amount of hours and nonstop frustration that for some periods everybody seems to have when studying in the university.

The thing with the CCIE or any other level certification is that it is too specific and oriented to what you use in everyday's work. That is not necessarily the case with a B.S or even a Ph.D.

Only by reading the exam blueprints of all the exams you have to take going from 0 to CCIE one should realize that thinking of a CCIE as a Ph.D is exaggeration and a half. It might be more like a Master's, but you can get it wiothout having the B.S knowledge and qualifications.

I think they are two different things but in terms of difficulty they can be compared. At this moment I have a lot of promises in my current career but i decided to change to IT-networking and hopefully wil be CCNA in the next 2-3 weeks. I dont know which path i will take but there are 3 employer in my country who pay for absolutely anything in order for their employees to go after the CCIE. I would even take a pay cut in order to get in one of those companies. I am after the CCIE. Maybe in a couple years I can talk out of my own experience but as i said, only by looking at the exam objectives and blueprints it is definitely obvious that the certifications are considered so hard because way too many people who havent been in college are after them, and they cant compare with objectivity.

I have gone through the whole CCNA exam blueprint in about 75days and i think I am now 85% ready (borderline ready to pass the exam maybe, i cant know for sure). I have a bachelor's in Civil engineering and I have to think about the CCNA just as one trimester of a full time student of my university/degree. In fact, considerably less in terms of hours of work and overall complexity. If the CCNP is twice as much material then a CCNP is only 3 trimesters and a B.S in any engineering takes 14 trimesters, and in the case of my university about 4% of the students make it in that time, being BOTH average and mode 17 trimesters.

I think the comparisson of the previous paragraph should be enlightening to most people who are after certifications and havent been around an university before. I might be off somewhere though, but i doubt it

Mishra

AlexMR wrote:

I found out yesterday that some guy I knew recently passed the lab for the CCIE r&s and ALMOST pass the security one (i thought they didnt give you the results...?) . He has a computer science B.S. When i talked to him he was CCNP, CCSP and CCDP, and he told me it took him 4years to get there, but it was not the CLOSE to the same experience as being in university working for the B.S. He has been working and living life without stressing too much with the studies. He says he has kept a constant pace but nothing comparable to the amount of hours and nonstop frustration that for some periods everybody seems to have when studying in the university.

And some people think the CCIE is harder than college.

It is a moot argument.

AlexMR

Mishra wrote:

AlexMR wrote:

I found out yesterday that some guy I knew recently passed the lab for the CCIE r&s and ALMOST pass the security one (i thought they didnt give you the results...?) . He has a computer science B.S. When i talked to him he was CCNP, CCSP and CCDP, and he told me it took him 4years to get there, but it was not the CLOSE to the same experience as being in university working for the B.S. He has been working and living life without stressing too much with the studies. He says he has kept a constant pace but nothing comparable to the amount of hours and nonstop frustration that for some periods everybody seems to have when studying in the university.

And some people think the CCIE is harder than college.

It is a moot argument.

To me it seems pretty clear that it is simpler but I am basically speculating because all I know it's the program/exam blueprints. I think what somebody said about the M.S/Ph.D being the guys who are developing the technologies and writing the protocols is the key point here. Those guys probably all have CCIEs, but mostly because it is a great certification to have in terms of professional maketability (is that a word??).

hetty

blargoe wrote:

Comparing the process of getting a Computer Science degree to getting a CCIE is comparing apples to squirrels.

I think that summarises it nicely, its quite a picture also isnt it? But id replace apples with birds (because i couldnt find a picture of apples and squirrels fighting funnily enough)

pooker

The only thing that I know of is a ccde , and its supposed to be on equal terms of ccie.

Dingdongbubble

No no I am not trying to compare CCIEs with Univ directly. Lets say a non techie person came to me and I said I am a CCIE. He would ask, whats a CCIE. I would tell him. Then he would ask me what level of knowledge does it show? We are just talking SYMBOLICALLY not technically. I am not at all comparing Univ and CCIE. I am jsut trying to figure out what a symbolic and easy way to tell a non techie would be about the CCIE.

pooker

I consider anyone with ccie a GAWD!

sir_creamy_

Goldmember wrote:

A bachelors in computer science is hard to get.

Thank you.

sir_creamy_

snadam wrote:

Besides that, the computer science degree takes 4 years because the university forces you to take that long with it.

No. It varies. More universities are allowing students to be more flexible with schedules as it promotes higher enrollment. I could have finished in 2 years had I done 8 consecutive terms instead of taking the summers off.

sir_creamy_

undomiel wrote:

All this filler classes are probably the reason that I don't have my art degree right now. All that unnecessary work completely burns you out for the stuff you're really wanting to focus on.

Think of them as "character building" courses.

hetty

Dingdongbubble wrote:

Secondly is it correct to equate CCIEs to Masters of Phds? (not accurately but just to give people an idea of how high the CCIE is?)

Dingdongbubble wrote:

No no I am not trying to compare CCIEs with Univ directly. Lets say a non techie person came to me and I said I am a CCIE. He would ask, whats a CCIE. I would tell him. Then he would ask me what level of knowledge does it show? We are just talking SYMBOLICALLY not technically. I am not at all comparing Univ and CCIE. I am jsut trying to figure out what a symbolic and easy way to tell a non techie would be about the CCIE.

Maybe i missunderstood the first bit? Put it this way, if there are 2,200,000 MCPs excluding the numbers of Comptia and Cisco certified. I dont know what the number of CCNAs is. But lets just say there are 2.5 million people in some form of networking worldwide. And there are only about 20,000 CCIEs then that equals less than 1%. That and the all-day lab would give a non-technical person an idea of how difficult it is to achieve. I dont know what the numbers of Masters/PhDs to Degrees is but i would guess its more than 1%.

Mishra

There still is really is no true comparison.

Any debate on this is silly. :-p

DDB (the OP) is simply saying to make someone understand the educational level of a CCIE saying it is like a bachelors or master is fine... It a reasonable way of saying it. I think it is a stronger point to tell them that many job postings are in the 100K+ range for the CCIE.

Turgon

AlexMR wrote:

The CCIE is overhyped (in terms of difficulty) because there are way too many people who have it or are pursuing who havent been engaged in undergrad engineering studies.

I found out yesterday that some guy I knew recently passed the lab for the CCIE r&s and ALMOST pass the security one (i thought they didnt give you the results...?) . He has a computer science B.S. When i talked to him he was CCNP, CCSP and CCDP, and he told me it took him 4years to get there, but it was not the CLOSE to the same experience as being in university working for the B.S. He has been working and living life without stressing too much with the studies. He says he has kept a constant pace but nothing comparable to the amount of hours and nonstop frustration that for some periods everybody seems to have when studying in the university.

The thing with the CCIE or any other level certification is that it is too specific and oriented to what you use in everyday's work. That is not necessarily the case with a B.S or even a Ph.D.

Only by reading the exam blueprints of all the exams you have to take going from 0 to CCIE one should realize that thinking of a CCIE as a Ph.D is exaggeration and a half. It might be more like a Master's, but you can get it wiothout having the B.S knowledge and qualifications.

I think they are two different things but in terms of difficulty they can be compared. At this moment I have a lot of promises in my current career but i decided to change to IT-networking and hopefully wil be CCNA in the next 2-3 weeks. I dont know which path i will take but there are 3 employer in my country who pay for absolutely anything in order for their employees to go after the CCIE. I would even take a pay cut in order to get in one of those companies. I am after the CCIE. Maybe in a couple years I can talk out of my own experience but as i said, only by looking at the exam objectives and blueprints it is definitely obvious that the certifications are considered so hard because way too many people who havent been in college are after them, and they cant compare with objectivity.

I have gone through the whole CCNA exam blueprint in about 75days and i think I am now 85% ready (borderline ready to pass the exam maybe, i cant know for sure). I have a bachelor's in Civil engineering and I have to think about the CCNA just as one trimester of a full time student of my university/degree. In fact, considerably less in terms of hours of work and overall complexity. If the CCNP is twice as much material then a CCNP is only 3 trimesters and a B.S in any engineering takes 14 trimesters, and in the case of my university about 4% of the students make it in that time, being BOTH average and mode 17 trimesters.

I think the comparisson of the previous paragraph should be enlightening to most people who are after certifications and havent been around an university before. I might be off somewhere though, but i doubt it .

Its a topic that appears on the groupstudy mailing list from time to time over the years. It really boils down to ones experience of accomplishing things. Different people have different experiences and make different comparisons.

CCIE overhyped? Well vendors do want to sell product, but as a feat of endevour it's still pretty demanding in terms of time and requirements.

Regarding too many people having the CCIE we have 16000 people worldwide certified and the track has been around over 10 years. When you compare that to the numbers who have chased it and come up short that's still an impressive number. Some fine network engineers never get through and some of them have very good degrees in sciences and engineering.

Here is one such thread on the groupstudy archives from 2002 but there are many others!

http://www.groupstudy.com/archives/ccielab/200205/msg00297.html

From the thread itself..

'Funny that you mentioned that CCIE is not PhD.

I have a friend who is doing his dissertation for his PhD in Electrical
Engineering, majoring in Plasma deposition processes. I showed him the
amount of books and manuals I had to study for CCIE, and the number of hours
I had to practice; and he said that they were more than the number of books
he had to study for his PhD for all the 4 years he's been taking his PhD
courses.

IMHO, in certain respects, and certainly in the amount of information you
have to assimilate, a CCIE is as much a challenge as a PhD. Someone once
said that the CCIE was the PhD for networking.

I can tell you from my personal experience that I've never studied more, or
studied more intensely as I have for this CCIE. My M.S. years were cakewalk
compared to the intensity and dedication I had to put in for the CCIE. What
makes the CCIE very difficult is that you have to know, and not forget, a
ton of information. In many respects, you have to retain more info than if
you were taking one of your PhD tests. And the CCIE lab tests is less
forgiving than a PhD test. In your PhD test, if you missed a question, you
will probably still be given partial credit. In the CCIE lab exam, if you
miss a minor point, you don't get the points for the entire section. A few
minor points missed here and there and you would have failed, while you
would have passed your PhD test having missed the same few minor points.

So, I agree with you, a CCIE is not PhD - In many respects, It's more
difficult. A solid foundation and dedication is the key, not luck.

Joseph Hao
CCIE #9273'

So far as RFCs and standards are concerned the contributors come from a wide range of backgrounds. There are many academics but not all have CCIE's although some do. There are also CCIE's with degrees in unrelated fields or no college to speak of.

AlexMR

That is very nice point, Turgon. It makes me see the other side of the coin. As i said, all that I was saying was basically speculation and conclusions taken from my almost insignificant observations.

I think what one poster said about a good reference being salaries in excess of 100K/year would probably be the best indicator of how deep the CCIE goes.

In my underrad years, I always dreamed of committing myself to an intense and intellectually rewarding Ph.D program, but things got in the middle and i decided to forget about it. Now that i am trying to change careers it would be really interesting to become a CCIE and feel I did my Ph.D.

.

The fact that the Ph.D was in electrical engineering and he says the CCIE was harder is really shocking to me.

Right now, all I am going to say is that the CCNA has taken me twice as much as i thought it would, and im not yet certified

nrf

With my apologies for reviving an ancient thread, I'm afraid that I find this response to be not only highly misleading about the PhD process, but an outright insult to anybody who has ever attempted the PhD process. To be clear, this response is not regarding the words of Turgon specifically, but rather about the statements of Mr. Hao.

First off, the PhD process has very little to do with actual coursework, as Mr. Hao is implying regarding his Phd-candidate friend. PhD coursework generally consumes only the initial 1-2 years of the PhD program. More importantly, your performance in that coursework matters little unless you fail (which ought to be a rare occurrence for any respectable PhD student). Rather, the vast majority of the PhD process consists of *original research*, for which little if any books are available, let alone any coursework. You could memorize every single book ever published regarding your PhD subject and still be nowhere near obtaining a PhD. What matters is whether you've produced an original piece of research that nobody else has ever done. Some people spend over a decade on the research stage and still never produce a dissertation deemed sufficiently worthy by their PhD-committee for graduation.

By the same token, I don't know what Mr. Hao means by a 'PhD test'. I have never heard of any accredited program ever granting a Phd purely on the basis of a series of tests alone. The closest analogue might be the PhD qualification tests - which only advance you to the state of Phd *candidacy*. As a PhD-candidate, you still have to produce a piece of original research of sufficient quality to actually obtain the PhD itself. Even if Mr. Hao is talking about the PhD qualification tests, it should be noted that you generally have only a limited number of failed attempts for qualification test (usually twice) before the university expels you from the program. In stark contrast, according to Cisco policy, you can just keep taking the CCIE lab exam every 30 days until you finally pass. I know several people whose attempts at the CCIE exam ran in the double-digits before they finally passed. Let's face it, as long as you have a respectable amount of practical Cisco knowledge, you're eventually going to pass if you just keep taking the exam over and over again. The stochastic nature of the exam is such that you're inevitably going to eventually be given a version of the exam for which you know enough of the answers to pass.

Perhaps the following analogy would be helpful. The CCIE tests your knowledge on extant routing/switching protocols. In contrast, obtaining a Phd requires that you *invent an entirely new protocol*. You would then have to demonstrate how that new protocol compares to existing protocols. You would then almost certainly have to develop at least a prototype implementation of your new protocol and demonstrate that it works. Either that, or you would identify problems in an existing protocol and then develop an improved version and demonstrate that that works. That is what would qualify as original research worthy of a PhD. Now, be honest, how many CCIE's can do that?

Zorodzai

Why compare CCIE to PhD ? To what purpose exactly ? Just because a CCIE is less "difficult" than a Phd does not make the qualification worthless, it's all about relevance......

GAngel

Zorodzai wrote: »

Why compare CCIE to PhD ? To what purpose exactly ? Just because a CCIE is less "difficult" than a Phd does not make the qualification worthless, it's all about relevance......

Exactly A comp sci or similar doctorate from any half decent school's purpose is to teach the student how to do research into new technology and contribute to the field.
A CCIE would be the practical application of that research.

If you want to make money in the business world you don't get a doctorate in general that's not it's purpose.