Certifications vs. MSc (Security)

zen master

undomiel wrote:

benevolent dictator wrote:

I would love to find a role in a bank that involved an in depth knowledge of the banking system and how it works as well as a sound knowledge of IT security.

What role is that?

No, seriously, what role is that? Find that role. Find out what qualifications the banks are looking for for that role. Even see if you can find out from someone in that role how they got there and what qualifications and skills they have. That could give you a general guide as to how to get what you want.

As for the field being saturated with support roles, well that's how you start out. Support for a while and then you work your way to positions requiring more skills and more responsibility.

The roles that I saw along those lines were Business Analyst - MIS (for a local Bank) and a IT/Security Auditing positions for local banks. I've already made a few inquiries, about what they're looking for, and the suitability/usefulness of the MSc in Banking and Finance, and I'm awaiting word back. I think I'll send that guy a quick reminder now actually.

dynamik

From everything you've said, it really seems like you want to go into banking, and you're looking for people to back up that decision. I don't think you're looking at both fields objectively. You're comparing high-end banking and finance positions to menial IT positions. Of course those high-end positions sound better. Do you think that degree in itself will guarantee that you never end up in a menial banking position? You'll get out what you put in to either field, and being highly skilled in either field will earn you good money.

I also don't think you've really looked at the amount of work it will take to keep current with changes and developments in the security field. I've seen Keatron mention that one of most difficult aspects of the CISSP is maintaining it. They have some serious continuing education requirements. You're not in the clear as soon as you pass the exam. If you're not passionate about this field, I think you're going to have a really hard time staying with it long term.

I'm sticking by what I said earlier. Some business skills will compliment your IT career, and some IT skills will compliment your business career. If you try to develop the same level of skill for both fields, so you have something to fall back on, you're not going to reach your full potential in terms of ability or earnings in either.

zen master

dynamik wrote:

From everything you've said, it really seems like you want to go into banking, and you're looking for people to back up that decision. I don't think you're looking at both fields objectively. You're comparing high-end banking and finance positions to menial IT positions. Of course those high-end positions sound better. Do you think that degree in itself will guarantee that you never end up in a menial banking position? You'll get out what you put in to either field, and being highly skilled in either field will earn you good money.

I'm not really comparing menial IT jobs and top level financial jobs, I'm comparing the fields and the opportunities for advancement, along with the likely return on the amount of work that I plan to put in. I'm passionate about IT, and I have no problem working hard, but, I want to see commensurate returns. How many of you on this forum think that you're getting the level of pay that you deserve? This field is littered with complaints about low pay and lack of respect.

I also don't think you've really looked at the amount of work it will take to keep current with changes and developments in the security field. I've seen Keatron mention that one of most difficult aspects of the CISSP is maintaining it. They have some serious continuing education requirements. You're not in the clear as soon as you pass the exam. If you're not passionate about this field, I think you're going to have a really hard time staying with it long term.

Like I said before, I have no problem working hard, I've been doing it all my life. I excelled throughout my school career, and I've been working and doing certifications simultaneously for the past 3 years. I'm passionate about this field, but I can't afford to be blinded by my passion, I have to keep an open mind and consider what's in my best interest.


I'm sticking by what I said earlier. Some business skills will compliment your IT career, and some IT skills will compliment your business career. If you try to develop the same level of skill for both fields, so you have something to fall back on, you're not going to reach your full potential in terms of ability or earnings in either.


I don't intend to maintain the same level of skill in both fields, at some point, I will probably have to focus on one or the other, depending on what life throws my way. I can see a scenario with me working my way up the ranks in a financial institution, and eventually taking on a role that becomes less and less "hands on" IT, and more and more "policy making" and probably management.

dynamik

benevolent dictator wrote:

I'm not really comparing menial IT jobs and top level financial jobs, I'm comparing the fields and the opportunities for advancement, along with the likely return on the amount of work that I plan to put in. I'm passionate about IT, and I have no problem working hard, but, I want to see commensurate returns. How many of you on this forum think that you're getting the level of pay that you deserve? This field is littered with complaints about low pay and lack of respect.

Well, yes you are. Most of the people I see who do that are inexperience A+/Network+ or CCNAs trying to break into the field (No disrespect intended towards them -- it's difficult and most of those complaints are valid). However, how many people with a masters in InfoSec and a CISSP do you see complaining about those types of things? Also, you tend to hear mostly negative stories like that. There aren't a lot of people who create new accounts on the forum just to talk about how great their job is.

benevolent dictator wrote:

Like I said before, I have no problem working hard, I've been doing it all my life. I excelled throughout my school career, and I've been working and doing certifications simultaneously for the past 3 years. I'm passionate about this field, but I can't afford to be blinded by my passion, I have to keep an open mind and consider what's in my best interest.

I never questioned your ability to work hard. I just think you can achieve the success (and money) you're looking for in both fields if you put your mind to it. There are a lot of people on these forums that make very good money. If that is indeed the case, why not go with what interests you. I don't care which one you decide to pursue; I'm sure you'll do great with either.

benevolent dictator wrote:

I don't intend to maintain the same level of skill in both fields, at some point, I will probably have to focus on one or the other, depending on what life throws my way. I can see a scenario with me working my way up the ranks in a financial institution, and eventually taking on a role that becomes less and less "hands on" IT, and more and more "policy making" and probably management.

That's a natural advance in any field. I don't think CISSPs spend a lot of time configuring firewalls and setting up VPNs. Operations, Risk Management, Compliance, etc. are a major focus of the CISSP. GIAC offers some certifications with a management focus: http://www.giac.org/certifications/ as well, so you might want to look into those too. Like I said, it makes no difference to me which path you decide to take. It just doesn't seem like you're looking at things objectively.

zen master

dynamik wrote:

benevolent dictator wrote:

I'm not really comparing menial IT jobs and top level financial jobs, I'm comparing the fields and the opportunities for advancement, along with the likely return on the amount of work that I plan to put in. I'm passionate about IT, and I have no problem working hard, but, I want to see commensurate returns. How many of you on this forum think that you're getting the level of pay that you deserve? This field is littered with complaints about low pay and lack of respect.

Well, yes you are. Most of the people I see who do that are inexperience A+/Network+ or CCNAs trying to break into the field (No disrespect intended towards them -- it's difficult and most of those complaints are valid). However, how many people with a masters in InfoSec and a CISSP do you see complaining about those types of things? Also, you tend to hear mostly negative stories like that. There aren't a lot of people who create new accounts on the forum just to talk about how great their job is.

Excellent point, and sometimes I wish the successful ones in the field would post more often on forums like this to give us a ray of hope, and some advice, but I guess busy schedules don't allow for such.

benevolent dictator wrote:

Like I said before, I have no problem working hard, I've been doing it all my life. I excelled throughout my school career, and I've been working and doing certifications simultaneously for the past 3 years. I'm passionate about this field, but I can't afford to be blinded by my passion, I have to keep an open mind and consider what's in my best interest.

I never questioned your ability to work hard. I just think you can achieve the success (and money) you're looking for in both fields if you put your mind to it. There are a lot of people on these forums that make very good money. If that is indeed the case, why not go with what interests you. I don't care which one you decide to pursue; I'm sure you'll do great with either.

Well, I wish they would speak up and let us know how the rewarding the field can be. It would be nice to have some kind of balance to all the gloom and doom about lack of jobs, and poor pay.

benevolent dictator wrote:

I don't intend to maintain the same level of skill in both fields, at some point, I will probably have to focus on one or the other, depending on what life throws my way. I can see a scenario with me working my way up the ranks in a financial institution, and eventually taking on a role that becomes less and less "hands on" IT, and more and more "policy making" and probably management.

That's a natural advance in any field. I don't think CISSPs spend a lot of time configuring firewalls and setting up VPNs. Operations, Risk Management, Compliance, etc. are a major focus of the CISSP. GIAC offers some certifications with a management focus: http://www.giac.org/certifications/ as well, so you might want to look into those too. Like I said, it makes no difference to me which path you decide to take. It just doesn't seem like you're looking at things objectively.

To be honest, the price difference in the masters programs is a hard thing to ignore. I really would like to go to an international university and go all the way with Info Sec, but the thought of being saddled with around $60,000 in debt is pretty daunting. Oh well, I've got two years to save, and I really would love to do some traveling. I wonder if I can find a masters program that involves some elements of management, security and specifically security for financial institutions. That would be great.

JDMurray

benevolent dictator wrote:

I wonder if I can find a masters program that involves some elements of management, security and specifically security for financial institutions. That would be great.

Take a look at the at the CNSS certifications that an NSA/ACE InfoSec program offers. All InfoSec programs offer at least 4011 (Information Systems Security Professionals) and sometimes 4013 (System Administrators) too. For financial work, you would be interested in programs that also offer 4012 (Senior Systems Managers), 4014 (Information Systems Security Officers),and 4016 (Risk Analyst).

A Masters program will require you to demonstrate a broad and general mastery of InfoSec. It would be up to you to use financial institution security as the focus of your course work. A post-graduate degree could be designed completely around financial systems security.

And if you want to feel better about the cost of a graduate degree, price a few post-grad degrees. They are typically 2.5x the money--and no guarantee of extra earning power for having one either. Not wanting to invest only $60K in your future potential for happiness says a lot about your self esteem. You should really consider how your life would and wouldn't be better if you didn't make the investment.

zen master

JDMurray wrote:

benevolent dictator wrote:

I wonder if I can find a masters program that involves some elements of management, security and specifically security for financial institutions. That would be great.

Take a look at the at the CNSS certifications that an NSA/ACE InfoSec program offers. All InfoSec programs offer at least 4011 (Information Systems Security Professionals) and sometimes 4013 (System Administrators) too. For financial work, you would be interested in programs that also offer 4012 (Senior Systems Managers), 4014 (Information Systems Security Officers),and 4016 (Risk Analyst).

A Masters program will require you to demonstrate a broad and general mastery of InfoSec. It would be up to you to use financial institution security as the focus of your course work. A post-graduate degree could be designed completely around financial systems security.

And if you want to feel better about the cost of a graduate degree, price a few post-grad degrees. They are typically 2.5x the money--and no guarantee of extra earning power for having one either. Not wanting to invest only $60K in your future potential for happiness says a lot about your self esteem. You should really consider how your life would and wouldn't be better if you didn't make the investment.

Whoa, hang on there Sigmund. My main concern is the job market when I get back home, and struggling to pay off that large amount of debt as the interest continues to mount. Luckily, we have a pretty good government program here that allows you to borrow money for furthering your education, but, where I'm from, 60, 000 is a heck of a lot of money, especially in a struggling economy. I don't think it seems like much for you guys in the US because your standard of living is considerably higher.

But yes, I agree, I do need to consider how my life would be WITHOUT the investment, or as some would call it the "opportunity cost". I've always said the only three things I'd put myself in debt for are my education, a house and a car, so I'm fully aware of how important it is, and how much of a difference it could make in my life.

undomiel

No reason to put yourself in debt for a car. Go out and buy a cheap and ugly one that gets you from point A to point B. Save up and trade up and keep doing that until you have the car you want.

As for the going 60k in debt, don't forget to think about it as not just going 60k in debt. You're going in 60k plus interest. Doesn't matter that the student loan rate is really good, they are still going to make a pretty penny off of you, especially if you're paying just the minimum. I don't know where you're from but to me 60k is a hell of a lot. I would prefer to get into the market, get experience and get to a point where I would have squirreled away that 60k to knock out that degree. If you're smart about it then it really wouldn't take that long.

zen master

undomiel wrote:

No reason to put yourself in debt for a car. Go out and buy a cheap and ugly one that gets you from point A to point B. Save up and trade up and keep doing that until you have the car you want.

That's actually what I did, my current car cost me $7,000, it works great, and I paid for it cash.

undomiel wrote:

As for the going 60k in debt, don't forget to think about it as not just going 60k in debt. You're going in 60k plus interest. Doesn't matter that the student loan rate is really good, they are still going to make a pretty penny off of you, especially if you're paying just the minimum. I don't know where you're from but to me 60k is a hell of a lot. I would prefer to get into the market, get experience and get to a point where I would have squirreled away that 60k to knock out that degree. If you're smart about it then it really wouldn't take that long.

It's hard to save that much on my current salary in a reasonable time frame, so I'm going to try to get at least half way there. The lending program that government offers has 6% interest, and you have 30 years to back. It's not a money making venture, it's an initiative aimed at helping people like me to further their education without burying themselves in debt.

JDMurray

benevolent dictator wrote:

But yes, I agree, I do need to consider how my life would be WITHOUT the investment, or as some would call it the "opportunity cost". I've always said the only three things I'd put myself in debt for are my education, a house and a car, so I'm fully aware of how important it is, and how much of a difference it could make in my life.

Yes, there is a difference between "good debt" and "bad debt," and I wish they would teach this to kids in school. Everything you mentioned is a good debt, but only if you have the means to make the payments. You will expand that "good debt" list once a wife and kids come into your picture.

Also, I didn't mean that remark personally, but it's interesting you took it that way.

ajs1976

You can also check with your employer to see if they offer a tuition benefit. Some will pay all the tuition or a portion based on your commitment to work for them for some many years after you complete the course.

shednik

I agree with JD, i think it all comes down to how much you value formal education. I know undomiel's opinion is swayed from the fact he doesn't think much of it, and where myself I think pretty highly of it. My masters isn't too bad and since I'm spacing it out well it will cost me next to nothing with my company's tuition reimbursement. To the OP tho I have to agree that 60k for a solid education is not bad debt at all as you're spending money to better yourself. You're going to be in debt for more then 60k later on in life between a car payment, mortgage, and any other major expenses that come with life in general. Also I know at my university you can become a

Graduate Student Assistant (GSA)/Graduate Student Researcher (GSR)

GSAs and GSRs receive remission of half or full tuition plus a stipend for a 10 or 20 hour work assignment in the School. GSAs may be assigned to work with one or more faculty members or to work in the SIS Labs. GSRs are usually assigned to work on research grants.

http://www.sis.pitt.edu/~dist/academics/financial_aid_policy.htm

So what I say is do some research and see if they have anything like that available for you, if you really want to do the infosec degree you can find a way. I wouldn't be surprised if they have something like that so it's worth a look I think.

undomiel

shednik wrote:

II know undomiel's opinion is swayed from the fact he doesn't think much of it, and where myself I think pretty highly of it.

I didn't want divert this thread anymore than it is already diverting but I do want to correct this. The issue here that I'm protesting is the debt. There isn't good debt or bad debt, there is either being in debt or not being in debt and owning your own finances.

Now to set the record straight on education, I have absolutely no respect for bachelor's programs. Achieving one gives you access to an entry level job for the most part. Why waste the money when with some hard work you could achieve this for yourself. The one use to give you the step up towards a masters and then eventually a phd. These ones I have a fair bit more respect for since you can actually learn something in them. I will eventually finish out my art degree. Then get my masters. But it isn't worth going into debt for.

shednik

undomiel wrote:

Now to set the record straight on education, I have absolutely no respect for bachelor's programs. Achieving one gives you access to an entry level job for the most part. Why waste the money when with some hard work you could achieve this for yourself. The one use to give you the step up towards a masters and then eventually a phd. These ones I have a fair bit more respect for since you can actually learn something in them. I will eventually finish out my art degree. Then get my masters. But it isn't worth going into debt for.

May I ask why you are so against a bachelors?? Yes some classes aren't as good as other I'll never deny that ever, but I would have never gotten my current position that I have no w/o having my bachelors. If you want to skip college and start working then go for it, because with a degree and roughly 2 years of working throughout my 3.5 yrs in college I came out with an excellent job and an excellent starting salary, without my degree I would have had to start out much much lower. I'm lucky enough to not have any loans from my BS but I know that if I did I'd be happy paying them because of what my time at college got me. Did everything I learned for my job happen in the classroom no, but what my college years taught me were how to work with people and technology. It gave me exposure to a lot of technology I didn't know about, and it sparked my interests in different fields to go and learn more about on my own. It's probably best we just settle on agreeing to disagree on this matter.

learningtofly22

Benevolent, what country are you in? If you've posted that and I missed it, I apologize. I know of a solution that would allow you to travel for the next few years and possibly get money for college so that you won't have such large loans - join the military for one enlistment. However, I don't know what country you're in and what the benefits of military service would give you as far as an education goes, so this is a huge generalization.

dynamik

Time is money though. Going into debt can help you start earning more and/or do something you want to be doing sooner. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents. I really respect your approach to finances; your resolve is inspiring. However, I must also respectfully disagree. I'd be years behind where I am now if I didn't take out loans and rely on the CC a bit for school or IT education/equipment. I believe there is good debt and bad debt. One improves the quality of your life and the other is wasted on frivolous things.

shednik

dynamik wrote:

Time is money though. Going into debt can help you start earning more and/or do something you want to be doing sooner. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents. I really respect your approach to finances; your resolve is inspiring. However, I must also respectfully disagree. I'd be years behind where I am now if I didn't take out loans and rely on the CC a bit for school or IT education/equipment. I believe there is good debt and bad debt. One improves the quality of your life and the other is wasted on frivolous things.

I'd have to say a great way to put "good" and "bad" debt, 100% agree dynamik

zen master

shednik wrote:

dynamik wrote:

Time is money though. Going into debt can help you start earning more and/or do something you want to be doing sooner. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents. I really respect your approach to finances; your resolve is inspiring. However, I must also respectfully disagree. I'd be years behind where I am now if I didn't take out loans and rely on the CC a bit for school or IT education/equipment. I believe there is good debt and bad debt. One improves the quality of your life and the other is wasted on frivolous things.

I'd have to say a great way to put "good" and "bad" debt, 100% agree dynamik

I definitely agree with this. I'm not the kind to spend money easily, most of my extra income goes into certifications and savings. My car is probably my only major luxury expense, but the transportation system in my country is terrible so it's more of a necessity than a luxury. My employers definitely won't pay for my MSc program, I can pretty much guarantee you that, so it's up to me to fund it. I'm actually feeling the urge to go overseas, see what there is out there. The local program kinda confines me to this region, whereas an MSc from an English Uni will allow me to go pretty much anywhere in the world when coupled with my certifications.

famosbrown

undomiel wrote:

shednik wrote:

II know undomiel's opinion is swayed from the fact he doesn't think much of it, and where myself I think pretty highly of it.

I didn't want divert this thread anymore than it is already diverting but I do want to correct this. The issue here that I'm protesting is the debt. There isn't good debt or bad debt, there is either being in debt or not being in debt and owning your own finances.

Now to set the record straight on education, I have absolutely no respect for bachelor's programs. Achieving one gives you access to an entry level job for the most part. Why waste the money when with some hard work you could achieve this for yourself. The one use to give you the step up towards a masters and then eventually a phd. These ones I have a fair bit more respect for since you can actually learn something in them. I will eventually finish out my art degree. Then get my masters. But it isn't worth going into debt for.

That may be true in sometimes, but those same entry-level jobs aren't available to those without the bachelor's degree. It all depends on what field of I.T. you go into. If you are talking about Systems/Netowrking/Security, the Federal Government is a good example of recruiting college graduates and placing them in developmental positions with good raises every year until the end of the program, while in the process teaching them Leadership skills since they will be the future leaders. There is also the programming side where you can come out of college and make close to or above 100K for a company programming or software engineering...There are EE, ChemE's, etc. that I know that came out making close to 100K per year and have surpassed that since graduating three years ago.

A lot of people do not use their degree or choose their degree based on what they want to do as a career. It is tough to find a traditional school that will teach you MS or Cisco as in depth as the path a lot of us take for certification, so many do just start in Desktop Support or Help Desk because that is what they choose to do.

It all depends on the degree and what field you decide to go into. Another note is that in my experience with both government and big corporations, you aren't touching a management position with higher pay without at least a bachelor's degree and working toward a Master's. Many government agencies and big company's are trying to improve their balance scorecard and education is usally one of their big items...

zen master

famosbrown wrote:

undomiel wrote:

shednik wrote:

II know undomiel's opinion is swayed from the fact he doesn't think much of it, and where myself I think pretty highly of it.

I didn't want divert this thread anymore than it is already diverting but I do want to correct this. The issue here that I'm protesting is the debt. There isn't good debt or bad debt, there is either being in debt or not being in debt and owning your own finances.

Now to set the record straight on education, I have absolutely no respect for bachelor's programs. Achieving one gives you access to an entry level job for the most part. Why waste the money when with some hard work you could achieve this for yourself. The one use to give you the step up towards a masters and then eventually a phd. These ones I have a fair bit more respect for since you can actually learn something in them. I will eventually finish out my art degree. Then get my masters. But it isn't worth going into debt for.

That may be true in sometimes, but those same entry-level jobs aren't available to those without the bachelor's degree. It all depends on what field of I.T. you go into. If you are talking about Systems/Netowrking/Security, the Federal Government is a good example of recruiting college graduates and placing them in developmental positions with good raises every year until the end of the program, while in the process teaching them Leadership skills since they will be the future leaders. There is also the programming side where you can come out of college and make close to or above 100K for a company programming or software engineering...There are EE, ChemE's, etc. that I know that came out making close to 100K per year and have surpassed that since graduating three years ago.

A lot of people do not use their degree or choose their degree based on what they want to do as a career. It is tough to find a traditional school that will teach you MS or Cisco as in depth as the path a lot of us take for certification, so many do just start in Desktop Support or Help Desk because that is what they choose to do.

It all depends on the degree and what field you decide to go into. Another note is that in my experience with both government and big corporations, you aren't touching a management position with higher pay without at least a bachelor's degree and working toward a Master's. Many government agencies and big company's are trying to improve their balance scorecard and education is usally one of their big items...

Honestly, I don't even think this issue is even debatable. Where I'm from especially, it's ABSOLUTE HELL getting a job (to even get your foot in the door and some experience under your belt) without a degree. In this day and age, if you're starting out, a degree seems almost to be a basic requirement.

JDMurray

benevolent dictator wrote:

Honestly, I don't even think this issue is even debatable. Where I'm from especially, it's ABSOLUTE HELL getting a job (to even get your foot in the door and some experience under your belt) without a degree. In this day and age, if you're starting out, a degree seems almost to be a basic requirement.

For professional tech jobs this is absolutely true. People who continually cite stories about a few high-tech CEOs that were high school drop-outs as a reason not to get a degree are not doing themselves any favors. Instead, they are severely limiting their future opportunities.