The "IT skills shortage" in Scotland is a lie.

freddy77777

The number of computing students in universities and colleges has dropped almost 50% since 2001.
This was reported in the media Jun 2008.
Why has the number of students dropped? Maybe student in the know are voting by there feet and studying other topics. Is there really any need to study IT anymore since lots of graduates find themselves unemployable? Are IT degrees now as worthless as media studies?
From my own personal experience having certificates like the CompTIA A+, N+ and the CCNA are as useful as used toilet paper when applying for a job, l know people with HND computer studies who cannot get anything. Maybe it’s just Scotland but l studied IT for 4 years only to find it a total waste of time.

GT-Rob

I think people's expectations are too high. People think IT is the 'easy and fast money' path.


Maybe in 1999....



Nowadays, its like all other fields. You think if you goto something like economics for 4 years, when you get out there will be a high level $80k job waiting for you? If you are unsure, ask my 2 co-workers who have economics degrees.

skrpune

the global economy is in the crapper right now, so just about everyone is having a hard time in finding a job. I'm actually going back to school so that I have a better chance of getting a good job & making some more decent cash down the road. (Plus I'm a total nerd and have been wanting to go back to school for forever now!)

I'd say that certs and diplomas and even resumes are, in essence, nothing more than pieces of paper. (DISCLAIMER: Before everyone gets ticked off at me for saying that, please read on!) If you wish to wish your arse with them, then so be it. But I think it's more helpful to choose to write a kick-arse resume and cover letter and tell folks WHY you're so cool and why your credentials and skills matter more than those of some other shmuck who's applying for the same job.

Attitude and personality also have a lot to do with job searches (once you get past the resume filters). Sure, employers are looking for certain skills and certs and degrees, but they're also looking for someone they can stand to be around for 40 (or more) hours a week. If you come across as a confident but not cocky person in your cover letter, and follow that through with a personable manner when doing phone or in person interviews, then that goes a long way in getting you closer to getting a job offer.

And like GT-Rob said, IT isn't some get rich quick industry. People don't hand over oodles of money & power & access to someone who's just gotten a couple of entry-level certs and/or a degree. If you want the big bucks, then you have to prove yourself, and that only comes with time and experience. You've got to work your way up past all the other people with the same credentials and distinguish yourself from the crowd.

BeaverC32

The title of this thread reminded me of the game "Portal"...the cake is a lie.

freddy77777

BeaverC32

lol

the_Grinch

I feel your pain as I am on the job hunt as well. But I have to agree with the above poster that it is all in how you present yourself. I happen to be great when it comes to interviews, the degree and certs get me to that point! I also agree that college students tend to have this thought that they are going to make a ton of money right out. Not the way it works and I also find we apply for jobs we could never really get. A friend of mine is a communications major (dealt with editing film and the like) and refuses to take a job where you basically help build sets and get coffee. For me its like being a field tech or working on the help desk. You gotta eat some crap before you do what you want and experience is experience. But don't worry a door will open for you soon!

Kaminsky

freddy77777 wrote:

The number of computing students in universities and colleges has dropped almost 50% since 2001.
This was reported in the media Jun 2008.
...

The "media" ? You not heard about lies, damn lies and statistics ? Isn't a degree level of study meant to make you look deeper into the source of information you take in and then come to your own conclusions rather than just blindly follow the WOW headline?

1 - There are a lot more computer related degrees these days which are specialist fields of computing. I wonder if they take these into account.
2 - There are a lot more "something and computing" degrees nowadays. I wonder if these are taken into consideration ?
3 - The vast majority of non computer related degrees will contain a lot of computer use in them as a side affect. I wonder if these were taken into consideration?
4 - We are in a recession and will be for several years to come ! Employers can afford to be very, very choosey about who they hire.

I don't think there is any mass exodus away from the computing field as "the media" are sensationally trying to make out but more like the students are being a lot more selective in the degrees they are taking rather than just follow the same old raw computing degree that university's have been pushing out for decades stuffed with maths that the majority of CS students will never use ever again.

I doubt those with any other type of degree are having any better time of it either. If anything, I would say that those IT skills of yours will stand you in far greater stead than someone without them just graduating.

That is the way things are right now. Don't expect the job to come to you saying "oh wow you studied for 4 years .. please come and work for us pretty please".

Even down south I am seeing seasoned veterans with degrees, top notch certs and years of experience under their belt, that cannot get a look in on a job and hundreds of IT contractors are getting laid off every day as well. These are people with mortgages, children to look after, food to put on the table and bills to pay.

Sorry to reply so negatively but when families are getting turfed out of their homes on a daily basis due to the economy, your post did irk me somewhat. Quit bitchin that you did the wrong degree and if you had chosen something else instead you would be rolling in cash by now. Look around because there a lot of people a whole lot worse off than you I bet.

Be flexible, adapt, overcome ! Just unlucky timing !

cisco_trooper

I have to add that 90% of college grads I come across can't network their way out of a paper bag, let alone write clean code. People get out of their education what they put into it. The ones that are landing jobs right out of college are the ones that worked their asses off to understand what they were doing. This isn't directed at anyone, I'm just sick of college grads.

snadam

BeaverC32 wrote:

The title of this thread reminded me of the game "Portal"...the cake is a lie.

great game...sorry for the hijack

Daniel333

I can't say much for the market in Scotland. But I can for the states...

A+ is a "entry level" cert, normally with a year of experience you can expect to make $10 an hour. Net+ is a $EF#@ and I have yet to see a single job desire it. Shoot, I have noticed most places have never heard of it.

CCNA is great, if you have a year or so experience. Catch 22 there, but at least the conepts are universal.

Just do a job search for your area. See what is in demand. What I learned in my area is that MCSE and CCNP will snag you a living wage. In Europe you have a larger install base of Linux keep that in mind.

freddy77777

Brain **** are certainly for the chumps 1 week intensive training i.e. ****, Savvy engine, Preplogic, you know most of the answers you might even pass but you’ll know nothing.
l did the 4 semesters in college and passed the theory and practical exams and went on to pass the full CCNA .I wasn’t looking for a £30.000 a year job more like £9.00 a hour but l found out that basically you’re worth nothing there’s no jobs and the qualifications stand for zilch All I’ve ever been offered was a agency job paying £6.20ph for 1 day. Even a bin man gets £20.000 a year where l live. It’s crazy that you go to college work really hard at passing and spend £700 on a lab only to find out its complete n utter rubbish. I don’t want to appear negative but it’s my personal experience.

laidbackfreak

freddy do you have any rl experience to back up your certs ?? where are you located? I know most roles are based in glasgow\edinburgh and Aberdeen....

a quick search on jobserve throws up roles in scotland from 10ph upwards.....

thought of relocating ?? there are jobs around but but as with everywhere compitition is tough....

Kaminsky

What about teaching ? There is always a shortage of teachers and it is a trade you can take anywhere in the world.

IT Trainers, those that teach certs, make an absolute fortune even in this day and age.

evil_lbt

IT "shortage" is not a lie. There is a shortage of qualified and knowledgeable tech professionals.

I have met way too many people (including a couple of managers) who are just plain incompetent and shouldn't be allowed to be near the computers at all.

True story.

JavonR

freddy77777 wrote:

Brain **** are certainly for the chumps 1 week intensive training i.e. xxxxxxxxxxxx, Savvy engine, Preplogic, you know most of the answers you might even pass but you’ll know nothing.
l did the 4 semesters in college and passed the theory and practical exams and went on to pass the full CCNA .I wasn’t looking for a £30.000 a year job more like £9.00 a hour but l found out that basically you’re worth nothing there’s no jobs and the qualifications stand for zilch All I’ve ever been offered was a agency job paying £6.20ph for 1 day. Even a bin man gets £20.000 a year where l live. It’s crazy that you go to college work really hard at passing and spend £700 on a lab only to find out its complete n utter rubbish. I don’t want to appear negative but it’s my personal experience.

I hate to come across has rude but this is how it's always been in IT. You can't just go to college and expect to to be instantly qualified for a job. Same as everyone else, you got to work up from the bottom, doesn't matter what certs you have.

freddy77777

If there was no IT skilled shortage why is there never ever any job adverts in the national and local newspapers? .Why are agencies offering £6.20 must have a CCNA lol. I’ve seen numerous adverts on the internet with job agencies advertising CCNA qualified ect jobs at wages from £20.000 to £44.000 right across from the job adverts are adverts for CCNA training lol,
l would advise anyone reading this to take me seriously ‘there is no IT skilled shortage in Scotland .As far as working from the bottom up the reason people go to college for 2 years is too avoid the minimum wage .
IT this must the only trade that people get qualified in and are still offered the minimum wage .I can’t imagine a plumber or electrician going to college and after getting qualified finding out that there’s no jobs apart from agency work and the wages on offer are slightly above the minimum wage

nel

Im not suprised numbers have dropped. i go to "the best uni" for IT apparently in scotland and i find the degree mundane and no way would it prepare you for the kind of job the majority of people go out and get. infact im supposed to be doing a networking degree and there's not much in there!!!

I could go on about the postives and negatives etc but im not going to get into that. One thing i would say is that uni's give a false impression that what they are doing is the best thing since sliced bread. I really think that higher education needs to move with the times and somehow encorporate the academic side with some realistics aspects of work. infact imo the way most societies have higher education are wrong i think people should be going for the masters etc when they have the necessary experiance to compliment it. instead of doing the high levels of education then starting towards the bottom of the pile.

I know many wont agree but i think this is best for the average student.

Roll on when i finish uni so i can carry on with my cisco certs!!

skrpune

freddy77777 wrote:

If there was no IT skilled shortage why is there never ever any job adverts in the national and local newspapers? .Why are agencies offering £6.20 must have a CCNA lol. I’ve seen numerous adverts on the internet with job agencies advertising CCNA qualified ect jobs at wages from £20.000 to £44.000 right across from the job adverts are adverts for CCNA training lol,
l would advise anyone reading this to take me seriously ‘there is no IT skilled shortage in Scotland .As far as working from the bottom up the reason people go to college for 2 years is too avoid the minimum wage .
IT this must the only trade that people get qualified in and are still offered the minimum wage .I can’t imagine a plumber or electrician going to college and after getting qualified finding out that there’s no jobs apart from agency work and the wages on offer are slightly above the minimum wage

I think the optimal word there is "skilled." It's not "educated" or "certified" - but SKILLED. If you don't have experience to back up education & certifications, then no offense, but you're not skilled in the grand scheme of things. Certainly you know more than someone who's not educated or certified, but (not to be rude) you know less than someone with experience. And you'll get paid less. Much less. And some companies will try to get someone as cheap as possible, so although I think it's slightly unethical, they're taking advantage of tougher economic times & aiming their low-paying jobs at people who are desperate and in need of ANY income.

It's like I keep trying to explain to my mom...just because I have a couple certifications and can fix computers and can tell my parents how to program the time the VCR over the phone, it does not mean I am an expert nor that I know everything about computers. I have a LOT to learn and experience still before I can call myself a "skilled IT person" and be earning bigger bucks. For now, I'm not "worth" all that much with just a couple certs and a year tech experience.

You won't find many IT jobs posted in newspapers because that's largely considered old hat in the IT world. You'll find most IT jobs posted on online job sites/boards rather than in print, since (to be somewhat obvious and not to be snarky) computers are the medium of the industry. Plus, online job postings reach more people at a better price and are much more flexible, so you'll find them chosen over print ads when it comes to IT.

By the way, I think you're way off in saying that IT jobs are the only low paying jobs out there for entry level folks. You use the example of plumbers or electricians...do you know what kind of crap pay they & other trade workers get while they're going through their apprenticeships before they can earn being called "skilled" in their trades? It can take years. They have to put in their dues just like the rest of us before they can get higher pay.

freddy77777 wrote:

Brain **** are certainly for the chumps 1 week intensive training i.e. xxxxxxxxxxxx, Savvy engine, Preplogic, you know most of the answers you might even pass but you’ll know nothing.
l did the 4 semesters in college and passed the theory and practical exams and went on to pass the full CCNA .I wasn’t looking for a £30.000 a year job more like £9.00 a hour but l found out that basically you’re worth nothing there’s no jobs and the qualifications stand for zilch All I’ve ever been offered was a agency job paying £6.20ph for 1 day. Even a bin man gets £20.000 a year where l live. It’s crazy that you go to college work really hard at passing and spend £700 on a lab only to find out its complete n utter rubbish. I don’t want to appear negative but it’s my personal experience.

First of all, Preplogic isn't a brain ****. I'm not a shill for them, just trying to set the record straight. The other folks may be ****, but they're ok. (So far.)

Second...you first said you studied IT for 4 years, here you say 4 semesters. I'm a bit confused - do you have a degree in IT? If you just have some schooling and not a degree, then that might be a factor that's keeping you from the higher pay levels - folks are getting cheaper with their money and are asking for more qualifications before they invest their time & money in hiring someone, even for entry level positions.

Also, do you have experience? How long have you been looking for a job? Where have you been looking? Are you only looking in newspapers? Do you have a good resume and cover letter? Have you contacted headhunters/agencies?

Like I said before, you really gotta work at it to find a good job & get your resume & cover letter in smokin' hot shape so you can beat out all the other folks out there who are looking for a job. First step is to get past the resume filters, then it's wowing them with a great cover letter, then it's wowing them with your attitude & personality.

I know it's hard, but you have to focus on those things & keep a good attitude or else you're bound to fail. If you're down and constantly thinking about how much the job market sucks and think you're never going to get a job, then guess what? You're probably right! But if you suck it up and work on that resume & cover letter & keep a good attitude, then your chances of success will increase tremendously.

nel

@ skrpune...when you study in scotland for 4 years its a Bsc (hons) degree level usually - thats one below masters in the UK.

skrpune

nel wrote:

@ skrpune...when you study in scotland for 4 years its a Bsc (hons) degree level usually - thats one below masters in the UK.

yeah, that's how it is in most places, 4 year degree = bachelors. But do they call each year a semester, or are there two semesters a year? freddy77777 said 4 years previously and then said 4 semesters in that post. That's where I'm confused...

JavonR

Well said Skrpune... I very much agree with your above post.

malcybood

On the main subject, there are jobs out there, there's just so much competition these days that even for an entry level job if you don't have the top drawer CV /cover letter it will not be submitted by HR or the recruitment agent.

How have you approached your job search? Have you written speculative CVs and letters to every IT/Networking/Telecoms/Service Provider in Scotland from the Yellow pages? Be a bit pro-active if you haven't been already.

I'm from and work in Edinburgh by the way.

cisco_trooper wrote:

I have to add that 90% of college grads I come across can't network their way out of a paper bag, let alone write clean code. People get out of their education what they put into it. The ones that are landing jobs right out of college are the ones that worked their asses off to understand what they were doing. This isn't directed at anyone, I'm just sick of college grads.

Out of interest do you have a degree and did you go to college / university?

I feel this comment is extremely negative and just wonder if you could network your way out of a paper bag before you had any work experience. You got to give people a chance, the people who taught them might have or may still be rubbish at explaining things.

"90% of of college grads I come across can't network their way out of a paper bag, let alone write clean code."

There are plenty of "Senior" network engineers that I would describe as they don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to troubleshooting a complex issue, so lay off the grads, they're trying to make something of their lives and learn the trade.

That said there are some college students that I know personally from university who got a degree and were actual muppets. Not as many as 90% though, maybe it's the area you live in, i dunno

freddy77777

I studied the A+ and N+ in a correspondence course, I passed my A+ and N+ in Edinburgh. I then went to college and did the Cisco Networking Academy. I don’t have any degree in IT ‘l never said l did’,
I passed the 4 semesters i.e. ccna 1 -4 as you know you must pass a theory test and a practical test to pass. I passed the full CCNA in April .I see a lot of comments are about useless networkers. I can reassure you l can network’ that’s why I passed the test. My certificates are not 1 week brain **** l did study very hard to pass them, with the Cisco semester’s I bought my own lab to practice with. So let’s stop saying useless net workers and people with certificates that are useless.
Just say unless certificates

malcybood

freddy77777 wrote:

I don’t have any degree in IT ‘l never said l did’,

that question wasnt directed at you

nel

freddy77777 wrote:

I studied the A+ and N+ in a correspondence course, I passed my A+ and N+ in Edinburgh. I then went to college and did the Cisco Networking Academy. I don’t have any degree in IT ‘l never said l did’,
I passed the 4 semesters i.e. ccna 1 -4 as you know you must pass a theory test and a practical test to pass. I passed the full CCNA in April .I see a lot of comments are about useless networkers. I can reassure you l can network’ that’s why I passed the test. My certificates are not 1 week brain **** l did study very hard to pass them, with the Cisco semester’s I bought my own lab to practice with. So let’s stop saying useless net workers and people with certificates that are useless.
Just say unless certificates

Hi mate,

Just because you have your ccna doesnt mean you can "network". Ive found this out recently where i done my ccna and "thought" i would be ready but i was mistaken. there is so much more involved than at that level.

Do you have or have you had a job in IT? get your foot in the door mate thats when things start rolling. its like others have said its a competitive market, a degree is only part of the path you'll walk as are certs etc.

btw out of interest, was your original post a rant about uni because its not what its made out to be afterwards?

skrpune

freddy77777 wrote:

I studied the A+ and N+ in a correspondence course, I passed my A+ and N+ in Edinburgh. I then went to college and did the Cisco Networking Academy. I don’t have any degree in IT ‘l never said l did’,
I passed the 4 semesters i.e. ccna 1 -4 as you know you must pass a theory test and a practical test to pass. I passed the full CCNA in April .I see a lot of comments are about useless networkers. I can reassure you l can network’ that’s why I passed the test. My certificates are not 1 week brain **** l did study very hard to pass them, with the Cisco semester’s I bought my own lab to practice with. So let’s stop saying useless net workers and people with certificates that are useless.
Just say unless certificates

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with that last statement. Certificates aren't useless. They're a part of a bigger package/picture that shows what you have to offer. Being able to pass an exam is a snapshot in time of your abilities. Being able to perform on the job is another thing entirely. They are not mutually exclusive of each other, but one does not necessarily imply the other either.

There are certainly many useless 'networkers' out there (and other IT-type folk), and those are the people who either brain dumped their way through exams and/or those who promptly forgot everything they studied after they took their exams. I am in no way trying to imply that you fall into either of those categories, and I'd venture to say no one else here is either. I am just trying to say that just because you're having a hard time with getting a job in a tough worldwide economy, it doesn't make your certs useless and it doesn't mean that employers are arseholes to ask for college degrees for entry level jobs.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that the figures on # of students enrolled in IT in colleges/universities only includes those enrolled in degree programs and not those enrolled in training/certification programs. I'm not trying to knock Cisco academy or your training - you put in a lot of time and effort and practice and I'm sure you know your stuff, but a lot of employers nowadays are looking for degrees to go along with that knowledge and some experience to show that you have been able to apply that knowledge, and they will likely look upon your study/college time as 'training' versus 'education.' Again, not trying to knock it, just being honest about the way things are and my take on how employers tend to view these things.

freddy77777

Let’s get to the point forget about CCNA, you’ll be better off getting a job as a dishwasher the wages are better you don’t need to study or pay for a test and of course you don’t need a degree either.
Also dishwashing is a full-time job not like agency work! Now’ how many dishes can l get into the sink 254?

dynamik

How much will you be making as a dish washer in five years compared to what you could be making in IT?

nel

freddy77777 wrote:

Let’s get to the point forget about CCNA, you’ll be better off getting a job as a dishwasher the wages are better you don’t need to study or pay for a test and of course you don’t need a degree either.
Also dishwashing is a full-time job not like agency work! Now’ how many dishes can l get into the sink 254?

Surely you cant be serious? cant be that bad surely?

JavonR

freddy77777 wrote:

Let’s get to the point forget about CCNA, you’ll be better off getting a job as a dishwasher the wages are better you don’t need to study or pay for a test and of course you don’t need a degree either.
Also dishwashing is a full-time job not like agency work! Now’ how many dishes can l get into the sink 254?

This is how it is for almost every single field, including IT. You did not have to get a CCNA before you started job hunting as in most cases without experience, it counts for nothing.

As you used the example of an electrician earlier I Googled "Electrician Forums" check out the first thread I found, read the second post:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/showthread.php?t=3914

8-10 Dollars an hour, in Florida. Sounds like dish washer wage to me.

I am not trying to be rude, just trying to show you how it is. Yes, it is going to suck at first but eventually you will gain enough experience making crappy pay to get a better job which falls more in line with the CCNA material you have studied.

freddy77777

electrical 17th edition next stop