Microsoft taking stand agaist **** sites

aaronchristenson

Check out this article that Born to Live put out. It is about a legal action taken against some websites that sell actual exam questions.

Microsoft sues over certification study guides 'identical' to exams

In the article it talks about how Microsoft cannot find out who the owners are. This does not make sense to me. They write the software that is being used on these sites, they know all the holes in it, they should be able to find out who the owners are. It might be considered hacking but who doesn't do a little hacking every once and a while.

I hope that they find them and put them out of business.

In the middle of the article there is a paragraph that was interesting to me.

"The company says it wants monetary damages, wants all the profit the defendants allegedly got from their practice tests, wants injunctions on the study guides, wants the Web sites shut down and transferred to Microsoft's ownership and wants the defendants' bank accounts frozen."

If Microsoft gets the website ownerships they could use them to find cheaters by putting out mis-information and tracking their progress and decertify them.

dynamik

Yea, MS, Cisco, etc. are pretty serious about this type of thing. I believe VMware rotates the pool of questions every couple of months to combat this type of thing. The majority of the problem is that these sites operate out of China, India, Russia, etc., and there's not a great deal they can do to shut those sites down.

Piers

My boss passed around a test kng pdf to get her dept their MCDST, 75% of my team was a year behind in their mandatory certs (there are still some 3 years behind on Network+). I got pretty fired up about passing around the answers to the tests, but she maintained that it wasn't in any way illegal..

Someday I'm going to find out the MCP ids of the ones who used it and when I leave this place, pass them onto MS.

moonlight08

aaronchristenson wrote: »

They write the software that is being used on these sites, they know all the holes in it, they should be able to find out who the owners are. It might be considered hacking but who doesn't do a little hacking every once and a while.

There's a right way and wrong way to go about taking care of places like this. What you are suggesting is the wrong way. The avenues that Microsoft is currently pursuing are fine. They do this every couple years anyway.

dynamik

aaronchristenson wrote: »

In the article it talks about how Microsoft cannot find out who the owners are. This does not make sense to me. They write the software that is being used on these sites, they know all the holes in it, they should be able to find out who the owners are. It might be considered hacking but who doesn't do a little hacking every once and a while.

Oh, I missed this part. A little banner-grabbing says otherwise

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:11:40 GMT
Server: Apache

darkerosxx

<devil's advocate>

Let's commit a crime to stop crime. One incident of crime in order to stop multiple incidents is okay.... right?

</devil's advocate>

msethk

Piers wrote: »

Someday I'm going to find out the MCP ids of the ones who used it and when I leave this place, pass them onto MS.

Sounds kinda dirty on your part if you ask me. Why not just let it be? Sooner or later if they don't know there stuff it will catch up with them down the road. That would give me greater satisfaction then ratting them out. Hope you won't be relying on this company as a reference in your future endeavors.

Zartanasaurus

They've done this before and it hasn't helped. Just like the RIAA and other companies trying to play whack a mole with torrent sites.

The problem isn't the **** sites, it's with the vendors who are allowing their test questions to get out so easily. Take care of that internal problem and the rest deals with itself.

Paul Boz

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

They've done this before and it hasn't helped. Just like the RIAA and other companies trying to play whack a mole with torrent sites.

The problem isn't the **** sites, it's with the vendors who are allowing their test questions to get out so easily. Take care of that internal problem and the rest deals with itself.

It's kinda hard to put the hammer down on test sites in China, India, and Eastern Europe when cheating is so systemic.

Piers

msethk wrote: »

Sounds kinda dirty on your part if you ask me. Why not just let it be? Sooner or later if they don't know there stuff it will catch up with them down the road. That would give me greater satisfaction then ratting them out. Hope you won't be relying on this company as a reference in your future endeavors.

That's why I thought I'd wait til I was out before doing it lol..

As far as them not know their stuff, one lady who passed the MCDST with a combined 900 score called me up to ask me how to add a PST to Outlook.

This is the kind of place that as long as the customers don't complain for months about you, you'll be ok. Any of these paper-cert teammates of mine have several avenues to find the answer, finding out for themselves is usually low on the ranking of options (did she use outlook help? did she use google to find out the steps for adding a PST to outlook?). This is the same lady that years ago called me to step her through changing an IP on a token ring network connection, her instructions only covered ethernet.

Hyper-Me

The easiest way is to simply shut down testing in China/India/Pakistan. These are the major offenders when it comes to stealing test questions.

Zartanasaurus

Hyper-Me wrote: »

The easiest way is to simply shut down testing in China/India/Pakistan. These are the major offenders when it comes to stealing test questions.

And as a double bonus, companies can't outsource there anymore.

stephens316

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

And as a double bonus, companies can't outsource there anymore.

Really is there a new law that just passed that I missed?

MentholMoose

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

They've done this before and it hasn't helped. Just like the RIAA and other companies trying to play whack a mole with torrent sites.

What MS is doing does help to some extent. It is like a whack-a-mole situation, except that when one **** site gets whacked, the creation of a new one isn't free. All the **** sites listed on the article are now dead. Sure the owners can rebuild... just buy new domains, pay for new merchant accounts, pay to design/create/deploy new sites at new hosting providers, and pay for new AdWords and email/blog/forum spam campaigns to promote their sites, and wait for the cheaters to come. But that costs money and takes time during which the owners' income is reduced.

There is also some risk (likely small) that the owners could be identified and have bank accounts frozen. All of this serves as a disincentive to starting over, and as a deterrent to others from founding new **** sites, though perhaps they consider it part of the cost of doing business.

Zillatech

Once MS works out the delivery of the Virtual Exams, this will help a lot. They still have problems with the 83-640, so they pulled it as of this month. As long as the test questions aren't exactly like the real MS exam, what's wrong with them? Why haven't they sued TK? or uCertify?

I studied my @$$ off using the Trainsignal and Transcender exam prep and still struggled a bit with the 70-642.
Since the Transcender tests came with my TS Videos, I wasn't concerned about the cost but I actually felt like the Transcender practice exams wasted my time! When you pay for exam prep it better damn well help you to pass the exam - period.

The exams don't mean that much in the real world anyway. The reason I love Trainsignal products is that they are excellent reference tools that you can view as many times as you want or need and they aren't just a bunch of random questions.

earweed

Zillatech wrote: »

Since the Transcender tests came with my TS Videos, I wasn't concerned about the cost but I actually felt like the Transcender practice exams wasted my time! When you pay for exam prep it better damn well help you to pass the exam - period.

.

Practice exams aren't intended to help you pass the exam, they're to help you identify your weaknesses so that you know what you need to study more. It's not a real study aid like the videos or a book. If you expect the practice test to help you pass the exam in itself then what you are looking for is a braindump.

Zillatech

Never mind, I was wrong. I struggled with my first test because I focused too much on using Transcender as a "Practice Test" and not as another Study Guide. I have since started using it properly and have done much better with my recent tests. I do think Transcender is a little pricey but if used properly it can help you.

bradtechonline

I personally only use my study guides from the Sybex, and do hands on labs regardless of how well I think I may have "hands on knowledge" in the work place on the stuff. The terminology, and methods/steps Microsoft, Cisco, or any other company wants you take may not be the way you do it or you use a 3rd party product instead of theirs.

In the end the guys I know who have used some of the **** sites aren't bad at their jobs and it's their own prerogative. I don't feel angry and want to give them crap over it. Along with having their certification taken away. In the end and all else fails we all use the ultimate **** called google.com to find a lot of answers. Study material and labs give you underlying knowledge and foundations on how things are suppose to work.

bradtechonline

Zillatech wrote: »

I expect the questions to be relevant and at least related to what I might see on the exam. The "Practice Tests" from Transcender were completely different than anything I saw on the exam and for the time I spent going through them, I just felt like it wasn't worth the time. I certainly wouldn't pay Transcender for that exam prep had it not come with my videos.

Your best bet is to just shell the extra money, and buy the books that the vendor puts out. I only use Sybex, and etc as a warm up until I crack open the real books, and do labs.

Zillatech

I personally don't retain that much from reading big fat books, that's why I use CBT's with Videos. People learn in different ways and reading a book from cover to cover does not work well with me. I have also attended many 2-3 day courses that use the MS official study material and most of the information I learn fades away rather quickly.

IMO, CBT's and Video Training are by far the best investment for your $$$. Books are good if your into reading a lot but many people don't retain information that well from reading a book. It puts me to sleep actually.

kenny831

Zillatech wrote: »

Why haven't they sued TK? or uCertify?

Certguard.com says that Ucertify is safe. A few people on this site use their product. Are they a ****?

earweed

kenny831 wrote: »

Certguard.com says that Ucertify is safe. A few people on this site use their product. Are they a ****?

certguard says they're safe and I can attest to the fact that I saw none of the same questions on the 83-640 test as what was on the u-certify for that test. Are they a ****? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

I don't know why Microsoft doesn't just google braindump? I've done it and it brings up pages and pages of sites which openly profess to be braindumps. Braindumps don't usually attempt to hide themselves as most of the people who use them know what they are doing.

SephStorm

I am familiar with an orginization that uses ***** as part of the prep for their version of Sec+, and those who score high enough can challenge the cert.

When I was in the class, we were told to use the program once. Some students asked if they could do it repeatedly and the instructor advised against it. A few days later I stumbled across CertGuard.com and found out that the program is a brain ****. I immediately spoke to my (former at that point, I passed both exams on my own merit) instructor and found out that the reason the school allowed it was because it was 2 years old. This sounded logical to me, and indeed, the course still has a very high failure rate, and few students are able to cert test. This is especially true for students who attempt to use these "prep" programs and think they can pass the school exam, which they fail, and have wasted two weeks because of the differences between the exams.

Anyway, I found out today infact that the school may be using a program from this year now, I fully intend on taking the issue to someone in charge by the end of this week. I convinced my roomate to do it the right way, and while he didn't score high enough to take the cert, he passed and gained an interest in the technologies, and intends to keep studying so he can take it before he leaves.

JDMurray

Piers wrote: »

but she maintained that it wasn't in any way illegal..

No, but it is highly unethical and a violation of the licensing agreement of the vendor(s) whose certification(s) she is seeking for her employees. Cert vendors aren't interested in prosecuting people who **** so much as the people that enable the cheating.

Zillatech

earweed wrote: »

I don't know why Microsoft doesn't just google braindump?

That is pretty funny, you would think they would do just that. I might try the CBT Nuggets for my next exam just to see how its different from TS since most posters here seem to rate it pretty high. I wonder if its worth the extra 69.00 bucks for the "Self Test" practice test?

I do think its good that MS is clamping down on the sites that sell the test answers but it is a little confusing if your searching online for valid training materials. That's why I'm glad a I found this site because I don't know anyone that is currently certifying on anything.

I have learned much about current certification, training tools etc. since I found this site

earweed

selftest is sort of like transcender light from what I've heard. I believe they are owned by the same company. You'll still get your package cheaper than trainsignal if ordering the selftest with it. A lot depends on the instructor doing that particular video.

Devilsbane

aaronchristenson wrote: »

"The company says it wants monetary damages, wants all the profit the defendants allegedly got from their practice tests, wants injunctions on the study guides, wants the Web sites shut down and transferred to Microsoft's ownership and wants the defendants' bank accounts frozen."

I think Microsoft should get monetary damages. These **** sites are damaging the credibility of the certification. Because now John Smith has an MCSE and gets a job at company X. He does a poor job and has no idea what he is doing and gets fired. Now that manager thinks that all MCSE holders are like John.

We should all get some money from them. They are devaluing our hard work, and giving our jobs to unqualified people.

And they should certainly get it too. They have an ironclad NDA. This is clearly copywrite infringment.

Michael.J.Palmer

There's no need for them to mention copyright or anything like that, it's simple really.

Their NDA prohibits anyone from giving out their test questions and answers. If they could track down the source of where the questions were leaked (probably from a tester or even from a test site employee) then they can reach legal standings from that point.

It's futile really for them to attempt to sue off-shore sites and servers, they won't get anywhere with it. Unfortunately it's the reason why the US government can't pursue terrorist using the internet to communicate off shore, if they were using servers located within the US to communicate then they could prosecute using that grouding, but unfortunately the law doesn't require off shore hosts to give any information to a foreign government regarding their users and the sites they host.

It's the same problem the US government is having with enacting the internet gaming law they attempted to pass years ago. Since there are so many monetary online transactions every day that involve off shore servers, it's hard to hand pick which ones banks should attempt to block. Likewise, since online gaming sites are hosted off shore, it's impossible for the government to prosecute those sites for offering their countries residence the service of online gaming. And of course, due to the 1st amendment, they can't make it illegal for a person in this country from to utilize those services as it's their right to spend their money how they see fit as long as it is not considered "malicious" in any form.

Don't you just love how many loopholes there are with the law and the internet?

skyline

This just sounds like typical Political banter. A way for M$ to LOOK like they are actually doing something about BD's when in fact everyone really knows they're not. No matter what they say or do it won't change the fact that some ppl **** its in their makeup of who they are.

Devilsbane

skyline wrote: »

This just sounds like typical Political banter. A way for M$ to LOOK like they are actually doing something about BD's when in fact everyone really knows they're not. No matter what they say or do it won't change the fact that some ppl **** its in their makeup of who they are.

I think they are pursuing it. It would be stupid for them not to. Dumpsites are devaluing MS certifications. If everyone has an MCP, then it doesn't mean much.

The other side is lets say I hire you for a position because I am very impressed that you have an MCP. First day on the job I see you working and doing completely stupid stuff. I'm going to fire you, and the next time someone applies with an MCP I won't be very impressed by it because I will assume it is worthless and doesn't teach anything.

Both of these points mean that people will decide not to bother getting an MCP. If it isn't going to help them get a job, or increase their salary then it isn't worth the time and money.

earweed

Actually there have been a lot of those "paper MCSE's" out there already. As soon as the cert was available and the first batch of tests went out there were all these **** sites. A lot of people just used **** sites and boot camps to get the cert.