2620 vs. 2620XM

xenodamus

I'm trying to do some research to build a home lab and ran across these two models that looked like a good choice for a Frame Relay switch. Both come with 2 WIC slots, right? What causes the XM to be twice the price in some cases?

Edit to add: It looks like the 2650XM is not much more than the 2620XM - any insight there as well?

CiskHo

XM stands for higher performance. The XMs have fastethernet 100Mb connections while the nonXMs have 10Mb ethernet connections. Both have 2 WIC slots.

I believe the non XMs cannot be used for router on a stick due to them only having half duplex ethernet ports.

DPG

What about the Cisco 2621?

xenodamus

This is what makes putting together a lab so confusing for me, lol. A quick search on the 2621 shows that it has 2 ethernet ports and 2 WIC slots which looks like a better alternative to the 2620....at a lower price. (??)

I checked again on the 2650(non-XM) and it does come with 10/100 ethernet ports. So I'm looking for a comparison/contrast of:

2620
2620XM
2621
2650XM

I know there are lots of hardware/lab topics in the FAQ section but alot of them are 4 years old, so I didn't want to take advice on model #'s from there.

Maybe I should make my budget/goals a little more clear for anyone willing to give advice. I teach an IT related vocational course that covers LAN/WAN concepts as part of the cirriculum. I don't normally teach Cisco, but I'm studying for the ICND1 and would like to build a lab for my own use as well as advanced students who would like a taste of it. So, I'm building this lab on the school's dime and have been looking at www.usedcisco.com for equipment since I need a reputable vendor that will accept PO's. I'd like to build a lab consisting of 3 routers and 2-3 switches with a budget of $300-$400 or so.

CiskHo

Maybe this will help for some of the models (some dont seem to be listed):
Cisco 2600 Series Modular Access Routers [Cisco 2600 Series Multiservice Platforms] - Cisco Systems

And looks like I was wrong about only the XMs having FastE. Not sure what that XM could stand for other than higher throughput...

CiskHo

xenodamus wrote: »

I'd like to build a lab consisting of 3 routers and 2-3 switches with a budget of $300-$400 or so.

I don't see you finding 3 routers and 3 switches for $400 unless you get some extremely old gear. Then it may not support the commands/feature that you are trying to learn/teach.

Personally I would not recommend anything smaller or older than 2600s for the routers and 2950s for the switches. And keep in mind you may still want interface cards and cables for the routers and that stuff can add up $ wise.

captobvious

CiskHo wrote: »

Maybe this will help for some of the models (some dont seem to be listed):
Cisco 2600 Series Modular Access Routers [Cisco 2600 Series Multiservice Platforms] - Cisco Systems

And looks like I was wrong about only the XMs having FastE. Not sure what that XM could stand for other than higher throughput...

The XM models have a higher memory capacity. With the right bootrom the XM model can support a max of 256mb RAM and 48mb Flash.

Upgrading System Memory, Internal Flash, and Boot ROM in Cisco 2600 Series Routers

xenodamus

CiskHo wrote: »

I would not recommend anything smaller or older than 2600s for the routers and 2950s for the switches.

That gives me a nice guideline to work from. Maybe I'll start with 2 routers for now and add another when I get to ICND2 and Frame Relay. I do have a 3550 switch that I found laying around in my closet, so that's 1 less to buy for now as well.

xenodamus

captobvious wrote: »

The XM models have a higher memory capacity.

Ahhh...I see. That's more clear with the link CiskHo provided as well.

Forsaken_GA

CiskHo wrote: »

I believe the non XMs cannot be used for router on a stick due to them only having half duplex ethernet ports.

Not at all true. 2610's and 2611's are pefectly capable of doing ROAS, and 2620/2621's have FastEthernet ports that are quite capable of full duplex operation and also doing ROAS

hexem

As far as iv'e read ROAS requires at least fastethernet/gigabitethernet, i havent tested it out on an ethernet port...i'm sure it works fine (most ethernet ports can run at full duplex anyhow)

Forsaken_GA

Well, I used to do ROAS with a 2611 on the home network, so yeah, there's definitely no fast/gige requirement. All that's required for what's normally considered ROAS is the ability for the router to use dot1q on it's interfaces. 2610/11's didn't have the ability to do it for awhile, but IOS improvements eventually extended the ability to regular Ethernet interfaces.

And then there's the fact that any router with 2 or more interfaces can do inter-vlan routing without trunking being involved at all.

To answer the OP's question though - 2610's and 2620's will function just fine as frame relay switches. I use a 2620 with an NM-8A/S in my lab as a frame relay switch, if all you're looking for is frame relay switching capability, all you really need is a router capable of providing the serial port density that you're looking for. Even 2500's will work fine for it, though the old 2500's with high serial point density (ie, 2522) have had their prices artificially jacked up due to their popularity in labs.

Since you're on a budget, and the only function I see stated is that of a frame relay switch, picking up a cheap 2610 and sticking in an NM-4A/S or NM-8A/S will be alot cheaper than buying a 2522 (unless you can find a deal) and probably cheaper than populating your WIC slots with WIC-1T's or WIC-2T's

CiskHo

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Well, I used to do ROAS with a 2611 on the home network, so yeah, there's definitely no fast/gige requirement.

I guess this is a new/er feature. My CCNA material stated it had to be a 100Mb interface... dang books are only a couple years old if that. Thank God for IOS upgrades

mikem2te

CiskHo wrote: »

I guess this is a new/er feature. My CCNA material stated it had to be a 100Mb interface... dang books are only a couple years old if that. Thank God for IOS upgrades

I have noticed a number of generalisations like this in the CCNA material (R&S, Voice and Security). I don't think the 100Mb interface rule is as clear cut as the book states.

SysAdmin4066

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Not at all true. 2610's and 2611's are pefectly capable of doing ROAS, and 2620/2621's have FastEthernet ports that are quite capable of full duplex operation and also doing ROAS

I never could get my ROAS config to work using a 2610 I had, and I determined it was due to the half duplex of the ethernet port. I researched pretty heavily at the time and couldnt find a viable solution, other than using my XMs for ROAS at the time. Maybe I didnt have the right IOS, I dont know. But I do remember having to use my XM models for ROAS whenever I labbed it, before I had my CCIE lab up and going.

In response to the OP, my mantra is to future proof your lab as much as your finances will allow. You're studying for the CCNA/CCENT for now, but you may want to move on to the others and if you buy the right equipment to start, for the most part you'll have what you need in the future. I would go with only XM models as this will allow you to run current level IOS and I would go with the 26X1 models for the second FE port. Later when you need peripheral routers, like a backbone router or a frame relay switch or something to that effect, you can get just plain old 2600 non XMs. They are extremely cheap. As far as switches are concerned, I would say 2950s are adequate for CCNA and CCNP, but keep in mind, they are useless for CCIE. So routers I would say go with 2621XMs, they shouldnt be too expensive, I think average for mine were around $100 a piece if you're patient, or if you can afford it, got for a 3640 and a NM with 2 FE ports.

mikej412

CiskHo wrote: »

My CCNA material stated it had to be a 100Mb interface...

The 1720 with 100Mb interface does NOT support 802.1q and CAN'T do ROAS.

A 2610 or 2611 (the link is in the FAQ) can support trunking with 12.2( 8 )T or higher IOS with the IP Plus (or higher) Feature set.

But the "100 Mb rule" was (and probably still is) one of those CCNA things you should accept as "truth" -- at least when it comes to Cisco and their exams.

xenodamus wrote: »

I know there are lots of hardware/lab topics in the FAQ section but alot of them are 4 years old, so I didn't want to take advice on model #'s from there.

Did you see the newer links posted near the bottom?

You need at least one 1721 ($50) or higher (2600XM - $100+) to do SDM (and Router on a Stick).

If you're aiming for the CCNP, then you'd probably just spend the money now and get the 2600XM routers (or greater) and 3 switches. You can also look at Dynamips for some of the routing tasks (now and for the CCNP ROUTE exam) -- but time spent putzing with emulation software doesn't count as study time.

If you hope to use the CCNA to get a job and pay the bills, but want to go as cheap as possible for now, then you can build a hardware lab for $200 using that old cheap hardware (along with that 1721 that does SDM & ROAS).

People don't search for the 2650, 2651, 2650XM, or 2651XM routers as often as the other models -- probably because people used to talk about the cheaper 261x & 262x models and you paid a bigger premium for the more memory and faster processors in the 265x versions. I paid at least 1/3 less for my 2650 and 2651XM routers then the equivalent 262x models at the time.

Forsaken_GA

SysAdmin4066 wrote: »

I never could get my ROAS config to work using a 2610 I had, and I determined it was due to the half duplex of the ethernet port. I researched pretty heavily at the time and couldnt find a viable solution, other than using my XMs for ROAS at the time. Maybe I didnt have the right IOS, I dont know. But I do remember having to use my XM models for ROAS whenever I labbed it, before I had my CCIE lab up and going.

You were most likely not using a version of IOS that supported it.

Here's the original bulletin from Cisco:

802.1Q Encapsulation Support on Cisco 2600/3600 Series Routers [Cisco 2600 Series Multiservice Platforms] - Cisco Systems

The general rule of thumb was that if the interface didn't support full duplex, then it didn't do dot1q either, but Cisco made that untrue with a little bit of code voodoo. The result is that we're still left with the myth that 261x's can't do ROAS. They can, but no one cares anymore, because the certifications have advanced beyond what 261x's can provide, and the reseller prices have come down on XM's so much that there's little incentive to purchase non-XM's. It's unfortunate that the literature has also chosen to perpetuate untrue facts. It's the ability for an interface to support dot1q that determines whether it can do ROAS, not it's speed or duplex.

mgeorge

2610's and 2611's can do roas now.

also all XM series routers have FastEthernet, 2610, 2611 and 2612 have 10Mbps, 262x and higher has 100Mbps.

XM's use SDRAM bus, non XM uses EDO bus. More memory support, flash is 3.3v on an XM, 5.5V on a non-xm.

XM's have a higher performance rate due to the different buses, edo vs sdram, and a slightly different processor rated at the same speed.

XM's can run up to 12.4(15)T, non-XM's are only supported up to 12.3 but can run adv sec 12.4 mainline but not in production as it would crash for sure.

If you want feel free to check out my router comparison model chart found at;
Understanding Router Components and Accessories | Free CCNA Workbook

mikej412

mgeorge wrote: »

2610's and 2611's can do roas now.

Happy post 700!!

Did we ever answer the original frame relay question?

You have to decide if you want a cheap dedicated frame relay switch, or a switch that that can pull double duty -- sometimes a frame relay switch, sometimes an IPv6 BGP router in a CCNP/CCIP MPLS lab.

You can toss an NM-4A/S or NM-8A/S into any old 2600, 3620, 3640, or 2600XM for a frame relay switch. Or you might find a deal on a 2520, 2521, 2522, or 2523 -- the old Token Ring versions are usually cheaper and won't matter much if you're looking for a dedicated Lab Frame Relay Switch.

A couple of $10-$20 2501 routers can be configured as a compound frame relay switch (either through the slow AUX ports or using the Ethernet ports) giving you 4 frame relay ports.

mgeorge

mikej412 wrote: »

Happy post 700!!

A couple of $10-$20 2501 routers can be configured as a compound frame relay switch (either through the slow AUX ports or using the Ethernet ports) giving you 4 frame relay ports.

Thanks!!! I cant believe I've been here since 2006, my oh my time flies.

I think I'll add to your compounded frame relay switch thought.

I actually got bored a few years ago and made a compound 2501 frame relay network using 4x 2501 and a 4 port ethernet switch and a bunch of tunnel interfaces going to different switches for the different DLCI's

It was quite an interesting setup and it worked. Heres where I got the big idea from;
Cisco IOS Wide-Area Networking Configuration Guide, Release 12.1 - Configuring Frame Relay - Cisco Systems

hexem

This may seem obvious but what is the performance in terms of "pps" ?

Kaminsky

hexem wrote: »

This may seem obvious but what is the performance in terms of "pps" ?

mgeorge has all those stats on his site (link in his post above) I use his site a lot when checking prospective ebay purchases as all that info is nicely tabulated. Be nice if it also showed what IOSes a device could go up to and the different image types that could be run but that's a hella job and a whole other website on it's own.

CiskHo

hexem wrote: »

This may seem obvious but what is the performance in terms of "pps" ?

Packets Per Second

mikem2te

Kaminsky wrote: »

mgeorge has all those stats on his site (link in his post above) I use his site a lot when checking prospective ebay purchases as all that info is nicely tabulated.

That's cool, nice easy reference.

Some other good reference PDFs on performance, memory etc can be found at-
Portable Product Sheets - Partner Central

Kaminsky wrote: »

Be nice if it also showed what IOSes a device could go up to and the different image types that could be run but that's a hella job and a whole other website on it's own.

For those of you who haven't discovered it yet, Cisco have a feature navigator which gives this info, it can be a pain to use and understand but it is a good reference-
Cisco Feature Navigator - Cisco Systems

mgeorge

Thanks alot guys. Now that you mention it, when I get the time i'll add the latest avaliable offically supported IOS line to each of the platforms list in the charts on my site.

Kaminsky

mgeorge wrote: »

Thanks alot guys. Now that you mention it, when I get the time i'll add the latest avaliable offically supported IOS line to each of the platforms list in the charts on my site.

You may regret that. I've tried doing it and it's a hella job due to the way navigator works. For each of the different image types (each with their own memory requirements) for each router you list in the table.... That'll be a pig of a job.

However, it does highlight very clearly the difference between 26XM and non XM. See the way I got the thread back on track there

Kaminsky

mikem2te wrote: »

For those of you who haven't discovered it yet, Cisco have a feature navigator which gives this info, it can be a pain to use and understand but it is a good reference-
Cisco Feature Navigator - Cisco Systems

Click Link,
Click "Platform",
Software = IOS
Platform = Exact model of device to look up

Select Major Release from Drop down. Say 12.4T for instance
Ignore Release
Feature Set = All Feature Sets/Licenses

Will show what IOS lines are available for that major release for that device.

Check out this link for the new image catagories since 12.3 which expains the heirarchy quite well.

http://www.cisco.com/application/vnd.ms-powerpoint/en/us/guest/products/ps5460/c1161/ccmigration_09186a00801d3482.ppt#530,7,Eight Packages for Cisco Routers

tha_dub

People get all hung up trying to build the perfect lab that does everything.... Build the best lab you can for the money and just sim or read about the rest. You could probably get a 2600XM a reg 2600 and a couple 2950 switches for under 300 bucks that should do just about everything.

mgeorge

tha_dub wrote: »

People get all hung up trying to build the perfect lab that does everything.... Build the best lab you can for the money and just sim or read about the rest. You could probably get a 2600XM a reg 2600 and a couple 2950 switches for under 300 bucks that should do just about everything.

Eactly, which is why my website is based around GNS3. Why spend money when its really not needed.

You can run call manager express, SDM, the new cisco configuration professional (ccp) and other stuff all from a 7206vxr in dynamips / gns3

Kaminsky

tha_dub wrote: »

People get all hung up trying to build the perfect lab that does everything.... Build the best lab you can for the money and just sim or read about the rest. You could probably get a 2600XM a reg 2600 and a couple 2950 switches for under 300 bucks that should do just about everything.

I wouldn't call it all hung up... As you start getting into a home lab and scanning ebay and learning the ins and outs of the kit, it becomes more of a minor addiction. Not necessarily buying the stuff but just learning about the hardware, the memory and the images.

Very hands on educational and has helped me a lot in my job where I implement new network designs into the data centre on a weekly basis. One design called for 4 big 3745s just to connect 4 * 2mb kilostream circuits. When I started questioning the number of routers and asking why they were using a single wic-1t in each rather than wic-2ts, the design was redone and eventually brought in on half the origionally planned infrastructure saving the client a lot of money and me a lot of space in my comms rooms. All from my interest in home labbing and scanning ebay and googling the different kit.

Enjoying home labbing is not just getting some of your own equipment for the certification rather than simulators. Home labbing gives you a lot of real world experience with the equipment and knowing what you can do with it.

My wife did put her foot down when work were throwing away a 42u cabinet and said I wasn't having it. I did try to say that she doesn't really need a wardrobe for her clothes as we have picture rail she could use but she was having none of it

hexem

Agree'd with above...I think those who love it really want to learn the in's and out and having the hardware really can push and motivate you to keep at it, iv'e spent more time getting frustrated at GNS3 than labbing ...little thing's that can annoy you over time that you won't get with the real thing.