What to do after ccnp: R&S or ccip?

netn3rd

I'll be finished my CCNP in about a month and I'm thinking ahead to what is next. With the addition of MPLS to the R&S track, do you think it's worth deviating to do the CCIP on the way to a ccie R&S? For the R&S you need more qos than you get out of ONT, you need more BGP than you get out of BSCI, and you need MPLS. These are all exams for the CCIP...

Question: do the CCIP exams go much beyond what is required for the same topics on the R&S exam? I will probably do both in the end, but I'm interested in efficiency. If my deviation off of the R&S path takes too long, a lot of the minutiae that is currently in my brain with regards to R&S track may begin to fade creating inefficiencies...

Thoughts?

Oh and the other side of things is that I'm unemployed right now so i have lots of time to study. A CCIP, which could achieved sooner, might help me get a position that interests me whereas a CCIE is the ultimate goal and it's easier to study in 14 hour blocks...

ColbyG

I did QoS after the NP cause I loved learning it during my ONT studies. I'm also fascinated by BGP and MPLS, so it made sense for me. I don't know if it's necessary for the CCIE per se as the IP goes much deeper into BGP and MPLS, from what I've gathered.

It's really up to you. The CCIP isn't a super valuable cert, but it couldn't hurt your resume and the technologies you learn are awesome.

chrisone

Most definitely a CCIP will help you out in your CCIE studies. However it is not needed, i believe the MPLS/BGP/QOS in CCIP go way beyond what is needed for the CCIE R&S. I would only benefit from the QOS exam from the CCIP, and i believe the QOS concepts in that book are probably overkill as well. There is no reason why one cannot study the CCIE R&S related BGP/MPLS/QOS topics from other books and third party labs. I dont think you need to study for the CCIP exams only to cover BGP/MPLS/QOS. Check out some third party lab manuals , they are pricey but to obtain a CCIE it should be considered a long term investment.

As for myself i am going after the CCDA/CCDP , before i get to the CCIE.

netn3rd

I think I'm going to go straight for the ccie as originally planned. I just finished MPLS for ISCW and compared the MPLS requirements for the R&S and CCIP, and CCIP seems much more involved.

And since I'm attempting to transition from a more generic sys/net admin role to a job focused much more on networking, I think CCIE study will help reinforce what i've already learned and better prepare me for technical interviews and a R&S job.

chrisone

netn3rd wrote: »

I think I'm going to go straight for the ccie as originally planned. I just finished MPLS for ISCW and compared the MPLS requirements for the R&S and CCIP, and CCIP seems much more involved.

And since I'm attempting to transition from a more generic sys/net admin role to a job focused much more on networking, I think CCIE study will help reinforce what i've already learned and better prepare me for technical interviews and a R&S job.

I agree, as far as my career, i want to study more on ASA/Firewall, Packet Inspection, Design, and wireless before i get into CCIE. I feel the CCIE will take me a year and a half to 2 years to study written and lab. I figured i will get more job experience in the meantime , study for more Job related topics like firewalls/ASA, packet inspection, network design, and wireless as a bonus for consulting jobs. Concepts that will help provide a better and solid resume for jobs. Of course the CCIE will be great but you want to have a more rounded base of technologies. If you want to be a much more focused network engineer you will have to get your hands wet with firewalls and ASAs. I havent been to many companies that do not have firewalls. Trust me employers will hire a CCNP with ASA/Firewall, network design, and wireless/voice experience over a CCIE any day.

Two reasons; 1. Companies are just not limited to routing and switching these days. 2. CCIEs cost to much and might frighten an employer into taking the CCNP with experience in other technologies.

Just thought id let you know, and sorry if i made you second guess your path. I was going to go for the ccie RS but i got interested in ASAs, Packet Inspection, Design, and Wireless. The CCIE can always come later...

netn3rd

chrisone wrote: »

I agree, as far as my career, i want to study more on ASA/Firewall, Packet Inspection, Design, and wireless before i get into CCIE. I feel the CCIE will take me a year and a half to 2 years to study written and lab. I figured i will get more job experience in the meantime , study for more Job related topics like firewalls/ASA, packet inspection, network design, and wireless as a bonus for consulting jobs. Concepts that will help provide a better and solid resume for jobs. Of course the CCIE will be great but you want to have a more rounded base of technologies. If you want to be a much more focused network engineer you will have to get your hands wet with firewalls and ASAs. I havent been to many companies that do not have firewalls. Trust me employers will hire a CCNP with ASA/Firewall, network design, and wireless/voice experience over a CCIE any day.

Two reasons; 1. Companies are just not limited to routing and switching these days. 2. CCIEs cost to much and might frighten an employer into taking the CCNP with experience in other technologies.

Just thought id let you know, and sorry if i made you second guess your path. I was going to go for the ccie RS but i got interested in ASAs, Packet Inspection, Design, and Wireless. The CCIE can always come later...

Hmm, that is interesting. I haven't worked in a large company before. Don't large companies have separate security guys? I actually do have asa/ips experience, as well as ISA Server experience. I'm not as comfortable with ASA as i'd like to be, but I was assuming that in large companies that security was its own job, given the huge scope of security.

Basically, at my last job, I was responsible for networking and security side of things, but in terms of day to day job activities, except when I was doing a ground-up review/rewrite/implementation of security policies for a compliance program, they didn't take up a huge portion of my time. I did a lot of programming too, so I am pretty well-rounded already, even though I don't have certs to show for everything. I have lots of exposure to both linux and MS OSes, a high-level view of security best practices and implementation, and now i'm almost done my ccnp so i have a pretty solid understanding of most networking-related topics.

I can afford to be unemployed for quite some time. I'm more concerned about making a good transition from a smaller company to either a large brand name company or a good consulting company where I'll get tons of varied experience. That's my #1 priority so that I can set myself up for the type of career I want (I want to do a lot of contract consulting jobs so I can travel).

Forsaken_GA

It really depends on what you want to do. I'm doing CCIP before CCIE because I think the knowledge is pretty useful. My goal isn't to pass the CCIE, it's to acquire the knowledge so I can leverage that in the work arena. That knowledge will help me pass the CCIE, yes, but the CCIE is a means to an end, not the end itself

chrisone

Yeah trust me, get your ASA firewall experience, you will be required to know that stuff for any network engineering position. Who says you cannot achieve that while you study for your CCIP studies if you decide to go that route. I know a lot about ASA's and i work with them everyday, installing, troubleshooting, and desiging. i am still studying ASAs while i hunt down my CCDA/CCDP.

netn3rd

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

It really depends on what you want to do. I'm doing CCIP before CCIE because I think the knowledge is pretty useful. My goal isn't to pass the CCIE, it's to acquire the knowledge so I can leverage that in the work arena. That knowledge will help me pass the CCIE, yes, but the CCIE is a means to an end, not the end itself

Honestly, I'm a late bloomer. There's tons of stuff I want to learn but I don't have time for it all. I have aptitude and time going for me. Long-term I want to do consulting on my own. Medium term I want to work in the middle-east with a big salary and no income tax. Consulting holds a lot of appeal to me since it means I can pickup and move whenever I want. My view is that a broad skill-set is important for that, but I also have to develop deep knowledge in a couple areas and probably pick up some management/ITIL sort of thing along the way. I'm thinking R&S and Security will be my two main areas of focus for the next couple years... I have non-cisco voip experience but voip interests me a lot less than security (and you have to deal with end users more, whom I hate).

I'm trying to mold myself into an attractive package that can design, implement, troubleshoot and generally be responsible for large networks. That's the goal. I really like the R&S topics and I also love security. I wish I had figured this all out 10 years ago b/c I'd be there already. =/ That said, I'm trying to make up for lost time at this point. Efficiency is key to me. That said I think I'm gonna buy an ASA and think about cranking out a CCSP as soon as I finish my ISCW course since I think Chris is right in that it could really help me towards getting a good job.

Btw chris, what do you think about the CCDP track? Do you find the material worthwhile? In my CCNP studies, any time they started talking about IIN or SONA my eyes glazed over... Why are you focusing on that instead of a CCSP, out of curiosity?

chrisone

netn3rd wrote: »

Honestly, I'm a late bloomer. There's tons of stuff I want to learn but I don't have time for it all. I have aptitude and time going for me. Long-term I want to do consulting on my own. Medium term I want to work in the middle-east with a big salary and no income tax. Consulting holds a lot of appeal to me since it means I can pickup and move whenever I want. My view is that a broad skill-set is important for that, but I also have to develop deep knowledge in a couple areas and probably pick up some management/ITIL sort of thing along the way. I'm thinking R&S and Security will be my two main areas of focus for the next couple years... I have non-cisco voip experience but voip interests me a lot less than security (and you have to deal with end users more, whom I hate).

I'm trying to mold myself into an attractive package that can design, implement, troubleshoot and generally be responsible for large networks. That's the goal. I really like the R&S topics and I also love security. I wish I had figured this all out 10 years ago b/c I'd be there already. =/ That said, I'm trying to make up for lost time at this point. Efficiency is key to me. That said I think I'm gonna buy an ASA and think about cranking out a CCSP as soon as I finish my ISCW course since I think Chris is right in that it could really help me towards getting a good job.

Btw chris, what do you think about the CCDP track? Do you find the material worthwhile? In my CCNP studies, any time they started talking about IIN or SONA my eyes glazed over... Why are you focusing on that instead of a CCSP, out of curiosity?

CCDA/CCDP is a definite challenge, since it wont delve much into technical configurations. The design path will help you understand how overall networks are built to interact with one another. It teaches you how to implement various technologies using specific hardware, teaches you how to organize yourself and how to design a network.

I am also taking it because after CCNP you are only two exams away from getting another Professional level certification. The CCDP is the ARCH exam, BSCI, and BCMSN. So now i only need a CCDA and the ARCH exam to have another respectable cisco professional cert. I also believe it will help me out in the long run with my consulting work for Wireless or network Design/Implementations. I am really to not into the Security path, all i am ever going to touch is the Cisco ASA and like i said, i have some good experience working with that equipment. I am currently reading another awesome book based on the ASA firewall, so i feel i am good enough to furhter my studies without having to get into the CCSP. I think if i were to dedicated my time and efforts for CCSP i would only look for a pure security related role, and to be honest thats not my thing, thats not a job role im interested in. I enjoy routing,switching, and wireless more than security or VOIP. Dont get me wrong i can and have designed and installed Cisco ASA firewalls, but thats about all i will focus on as far as security, ASA model firewalls and thats it...

netn3rd

chrisone wrote: »

CCDA/CCDP is a definite challenge, since it wont delve much into technical configurations. The design path will help you understand how overall networks are built to interact with one another. It teaches you how to implement various technologies using specific hardware, teaches you how to organize yourself and how to design a network.

I am also taking it because after CCNP you are only two exams away from getting another Professional level certification. The CCDP is the ARCH exam, BSCI, and BCMSN. So now i only need a CCDA and the ARCH exam to have another respectable cisco professional cert. I also believe it will help me out in the long run with my consulting work for Wireless or network Design/Implementations. I am really to not into the Security path, all i am ever going to touch is the Cisco ASA and like i said, i have some good experience working with that equipment. I am currently reading another awesome book based on the ASA firewall, so i feel i am good enough to furhter my studies without having to get into the CCSP. I think if i were to dedicated my time and efforts for CCSP i would only look for a pure security related role, and to be honest thats not my thing, thats not a job role im interested in. I enjoy routing,switching, and wireless more than security or VOIP. Dont get me wrong i can and have designed and installed Cisco ASA firewalls, but thats about all i will focus on as far as security, ASA model firewalls and thats it...

I was originally thinking about doing a quick run for the DP as well for that reason... Ugh. Decisions.

SysAdmin4066

It really depends on what you want to do with them. I am not going for the CCIP en route to the CCIE because I dont suspect I'll be working in a NOC or for a provider. The knowledge is great, but I have to pick my battles. There are only so many hours in the day. If you're anything like me, you have a shortage of time, so I would pick the track that is going to pay off the most dividends the quickest. Afterall, that's smart investing. If you are 10 years from retirement, you would invest your money differently than the kid that's 21 and just finishing college. Same thing here, this is an investment in your career. How far along you are and what your goals are will influence where your money goes. This stuff isnt free, far from it. I went through the CCNP track en route to the CCIE because it made sense for what I do and will do in the future. CCIP didnt make sense to me, for where I'm headed. For others it will. You'll need to decide where you want to invest and never forget that you are in fact investing your money. Make it work for you. Figure out these cert's value in the job market. They are at their very core level marketing tools, to help you to market yourself.

Forsaken_GA

chrisone wrote: »

Yeah trust me, get your ASA firewall experience, you will be required to know that stuff for any network engineering position.

I wouldn't necessarily say ASA, but you definetly need to have firewall principles down. ASA's aren't the end-all/be-all of network devices, plenty of Juniper out there, especially in the SSL VPN appliance category, and there are other good firewall vendors out there like Fortinet, and there's a pretty large deployment of open source firewalls like Untangle, IpCop, pfsense, etc

netn3rd

SysAdmin4066 wrote: »

It really depends on what you want to do with them. I am not going for the CCIP en route to the CCIE because I dont suspect I'll be working in a NOC or for a provider. The knowledge is great, but I have to pick my battles. There are only so many hours in the day. If you're anything like me, you have a shortage of time, so I would pick the track that is going to pay off the most dividends the quickest. Afterall, that's smart investing. If you are 10 years from retirement, you would invest your money differently than the kid that's 21 and just finishing college. Same thing here, this is an investment in your career. How far along you are and what your goals are will influence where your money goes. This stuff isnt free, far from it. I went through the CCNP track en route to the CCIE because it made sense for what I do and will do in the future. CCIP didnt make sense to me, for where I'm headed. For others it will. You'll need to decide where you want to invest and never forget that you are in fact investing your money. Make it work for you. Figure out these cert's value in the job market. They are at their very core level marketing tools, to help you to market yourself.

This is very reasonable. What makes the decision more difficult is being in transition. I don't know what my next job will be. I'm comfortable for a while without one, and I've been putting off looking until i finished my ccnp. I ran a small IT department and my experience involves networking but isn't super-heavy on networking. We didn't have tons of routers to manage. I have decent security experience but not nearly the amount of time under my belt to get a CISSP (and nobody to vouch for what I was doing at this point). I want to make myself flexible so that I can do varied consulting work sooner rather than later. One of the coolest things about a networking career, that i didn't think about when i was a bit younger is that the skills you develop are almost 100% transferable from one job to the next. If you want to move around a lot, you can. Skills are in demand everywhere. This may be less true in the recession, but you get the point.

I guess my immediate worry is whether a CCIE in the next 6 months would help me get a better job than diversifying a bit. Given my level of real-world experience (5-6 years but as i said, not networking-intensive, more server and programming), I'm not sure how I'd be viewed as a CCIE at this point. I really view the next job as key in my development. Down the road, I definitely plan on doing additional paths to the CCIE level. I enjoy the material and enjoy learning. As I said, I also have real-world voip experience, but not cisco.

I was reading another thread about CCNP-level technical interviews. A couple guys said the quality of CCNPs they were bringing in was total crap. I don't want to be one of those guys. I figure that if I stick to the R&S path, CCIE study will really solidify my knowledge (I think a lot of people start to forget a topic as soon as they move on to the next exam) and I won't have to sweat the interviews so much (I've never done technical interviews; I switched from payroll to IT and then got promoted to run the department at my last job).

For the NEXT job, do you have any opinions of what would add the most value for me? I will be focusing my job search on it consulting firms, ISPs, and big organizations. I have no desire to go back to small companies and I want to work in a large complex environment. It would probably be a more natural progression for me to do something server-related, but I far prefer the networking side of things.

ColbyG

Getting the CCIE in six months is going to be very difficult, especially without much high level experience.

chrisone

ColbyG wrote: »

Getting the CCIE in six months is going to be very difficult, especially without much high level experience.

I agree, we are not trying to crush your dreams here, its reality. I have over 3 to 4 years experience in Networking with 10 plus years in IT. I dont think i can pass the CCIE in 6 months. I wouldnt even say i can pass the written in 6 months, i would give the written at least 8 months to a year. Then the Lab another 8 months to a year tops to study. Then the CCIE R&S just got updated with new topics and from what many on here say, very few have passed the new CCIE R&S exam. There are plenty of threads started here for the new CCIE where ColbyG, myself, and others have posted about time lines, book lists, etc etc. Just do some searching...

SysAdmin4066

Certifications as a whole are going to get your foot in the door. They garner interest in you as a candidate and tell employers you meet their minimum requirements, whatever that may be. It's your situational experience and your ability to convey that experience, that will get you through technical interviews and then your fundamental knowledge and ability to research efficiently which will keep you employed. With that said, your CCIE will attract high level networking positions. But if you dont have the experience, you most likely wont get past the interview. For instance, if you dont have stories of when you worked in a capacity of what the employer is looking for, which might translate to CCIE level work, then you will not be their choice. The Microsoft side of the house is a pretty sought after path as well. MCSE, MCSA, and the newer MCITP tracks have all been pretty valuable for me. I set out to be well-rounded in my approach to certs. My bread and butter is Active Directory and Microsoft related products, but I also support complex network environments as well. So I needed to be well rounded in my certifications to show employers I had the knowledge.

netn3rd

SysAdmin4066 wrote: »

Certifications as a whole are going to get your foot in the door. They garner interest in you as a candidate and tell employers you meet their minimum requirements, whatever that may be. It's your situational experience and your ability to convey that experience, that will get you through technical interviews and then your fundamental knowledge and ability to research efficiently which will keep you employed. With that said, your CCIE will attract high level networking positions. But if you dont have the experience, you most likely wont get past the interview. For instance, if you dont have stories of when you worked in a capacity of what the employer is looking for, which might translate to CCIE level work, then you will not be their choice. The Microsoft side of the house is a pretty sought after path as well. MCSE, MCSA, and the newer MCITP tracks have all been pretty valuable for me. I set out to be well-rounded in my approach to certs. My bread and butter is Active Directory and Microsoft related products, but I also support complex network environments as well. So I needed to be well rounded in my certifications to show employers I had the knowledge.

If I did a CCIE I don't think I'd announce it in an interview until i had much more high-end experience. I'd still aim for CCNP jobs and I'd just be able to perform better in both the interview and on the job if I got it, which would hopefully lead to faster promotions and hopefully some project management responsibilities. Also, concerning the CCIE prep time, remember that I'm unemployed. I have 15 hours a day to study.

Also, I was led to believe (maybe mislead), that if I was interested in the networking side I should focus on that and not waste time on microsoft stuff. I don't have any MS certs but I have enough MS knowledge (exchange,isa, and AD) from administering it for years to get by and I can generally research anything I don't know off the top of my head, but I really want to avoid servers if I can help it because I've got specific ideas of how I want my career to unfold and it doesn't involve server maintenance. My goals center around design/implementation/troubleshooting of converged networks so those are the areas I'm most eager to certify.

I'm also thinking that maybe i should suck it up and do a CCVP. Voice isn't my favorite topic but it's my strongest experience given that I was running IT for a call center (10000 calls a day). Voip was the thing I had to troubleshoot more than anything else.

ColbyG

If you're already strong in VoIP, I'd go for it.

MS certs definitely won't help you as a network engineer, at least not for any medium to large companies (so a real net eng, not an all around guy).

Even with 15 hours per day of studying, you're still lacking the real world experience, which is huge for the CCIE... especially since they've added the troubleshooting portion.

chrisone

ColbyG wrote: »

If you're already strong in VoIP, I'd go for it.

MS certs definitely won't help you as a network engineer, at least not for any medium to large companies (so a real net eng, not an all around guy).

Even with 15 hours per day of studying, you're still lacking the real world experience, which is huge for the CCIE... especially since they've added the troubleshooting portion.

Yeah i agree drop any MS certs you had in mind, they wont help you.

If you are into voip and are going to spend the time studying for a CCVP then go that route and get a job doing VOIP. But dont get a CCVP for more experience towards a CCIE R&S exam. Its like if i studied for the CWNP or CCNP wireless, i wouldnt even bother looking for a job in routing and switching, security, or voip. I still dont understand why many folks get all the professional level certs, as far as jobs are concerned i would not be sole responsible for an enterprises security, voip, wireless, and R&S network all at once. You couldn't pay me to do all that , and i wouldn't have the motivation nor the time in a 24 hour day to be responsible for all those technologies. I guess one would achieve all those certs if they are interested in the technology. Being a network engineer in routing and switching, i do maintain all the security of course (obviously), but the voip i just make sure our bandwidth and QOS is good. However i cannot see myself doing full on VOIP,wireless,security, R&S all together and at my job i am not expected to.

I say whatever your into , go full charge on that technology, CCVP and Wireless are somewhat special roles in todays networking fields, you either do one or the other. As far as routing and switching, an engineer is expected to know alittle bit about everything, especially security. Security and R&S go hand in hand. As far as wireless and voip , one should just know the basics, but you wouldnt be expected to know as much as a CCVP or a CWNP/CCNP wireless engineer.

netn3rd

chrisone wrote: »

Yeah i agree drop any MS certs you had in mind, they wont help you.

If you are into voip and are going to spend the time studying for a CCVP then go that route and get a job doing VOIP. But dont get a CCVP for more experience towards a CCIE R&S exam. Its like if i studied for the CWNP or CCNP wireless, i wouldnt even bother looking for a job in routing and switching, security, or voip. I still dont understand why many folks get all the professional level certs, as far as jobs are concerned i would not be sole responsible for an enterprises security, voip, wireless, and R&S network all at once. You couldn't pay me to do all that , and i wouldn't have the motivation nor the time in a 24 hour day to be responsible for all those technologies. I guess one would achieve all those certs if they are interested in the technology. Being a network engineer in routing and switching, i do maintain all the security of course (obviously), but the voip i just make sure our bandwidth and QOS is good. However i cannot see myself doing full on VOIP,wireless,security, R&S all together and at my job i am not expected to.

I say whatever your into , go full charge on that technology, CCVP and Wireless are somewhat special roles in todays networking fields, you either do one or the other. As far as routing and switching, an engineer is expected to know alittle bit about everything, especially security. Security and R&S go hand in hand. As far as wireless and voip , one should just know the basics, but you wouldnt be expected to know as much as a CCVP or a CWNP/CCNP wireless engineer.

I love R&S but I think the others are attempting to point out a reality to me. Although I have a NP (or will have very soon), getting a job at the NP level may not be as easy as I'd like since I come from a small R&S environment and a VP might better leverage my existing experience since it's probably a lot better than 80% of the people doing CCVPs. My preference is definitely to develop more along the R&S path, but the reality is that i have to consider how I will be viewed by potential employers. That is my conundrum.

I really do want to make a transition to the R&S world, but I'm getting the feeling a bunch of people that have been in hiring positions, or at least have more experience in large companies, think i'm better off leveraging my voip experience, since it is pretty decent and I'd actually have stories to tell during the interview showcasing how awesome I am.

Down the road, I think that if I want to consult (which I do), it will pay to be highly skilled in more than one area. However, coming from my last job, I know that it is impossible to be a jack-of-all-trades AND an expert. Even if you're really smart, you just don't have time for it all. I was doing sql, .net, voip, MS/linux administration, and security. I was being pulled in all directions and had 0 free time. I was probably as good a generalist as a company could expect, as I was a very good learner and highly motivated, but when you're constantly jumping from one thing to another, it's virtually impossible to become a SME in any one area and consequently command SME-type consulting fees that anyone with a good brain and any ambition naturally wants to earn. That said, I think it's feasible to become very good in a couple of areas for an intelligent and dedicated individual.

My thinking at this point (until I change it in 5 minutes) is do the VP and leverage what I have. If I get an NP job in the meantime, then hey, I get what I want and I'm closer to a VP if I want to make that my second area of expertise. Since a CCIE R&S wouldn't be particularly marketable for me right now, I can keep the knowledge from the CCNP fresh by doing periodic theory review and working through my INE workbooks at a slower pace while expending 80% of my time on the CCVP. This way all the NP knowledge stays in my brain, but I'm spending most of my time working towards something that will hopefully make me immediately more attractive as a candidate...

ColbyG

netn3rd wrote: »

I love R&S but I think the others are attempting to point out a reality to me. Although I have a NP (or will have very soon), getting a job at the NP level may not be as easy as I'd like since I come from a small R&S environment and a VP might better leverage my existing experience since it's probably a lot better than 80% of the people doing CCVPs.

This, pretty much. I would work with what you have at the moment. Definitely keep studying and looking for jobs, but jumping into the IE with little experience is rough. Transitioning from Voice to R&S shouldn't be too hard once you're in a decent company.

ciscog33k

Cool. I think it's a plan then. Now I just have to wrap my head around what gear to buy for the CCVP. Being unemployed, I don't want to go the 2811 route.... I'll start that topic in a different forum though.

And yes, I created a new username. I don't know where I came up with that awful one so I decided to kill it before I rack up too many posts.

Thanks to everyone that's been helping me figure this stuff out.

Forsaken_GA

netn3rd wrote: »

Down the road, I think that if I want to consult (which I do), it will pay to be highly skilled in more than one area. However, coming from my last job, I know that it is impossible to be a jack-of-all-trades AND an expert. Even if you're really smart, you just don't have time for it all. I was doing sql, .net, voip, MS/linux administration, and security. I was being pulled in all directions and had 0 free time.

I'm familiar with this. I had to consciously make a decision to stop learning system administration related tasks because it was taking away from my network learning. Now I keep up just enough to be able to run my servers as a network engineer (nms, netflow collector, svn repo for configs, etc).

And while it's true that you can't be a jack of all trades and an expert in everything, you still have to keep your fingers in a whole lot of pies, especially if you're going to consult, as you'll never know what quirks a client will throw at you. Nothing pisses me off more than beginning work on a clients network only to discover that there's something like a PIX that no one mentioned. And it's in the traffic path.

ciscog33k

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I'm familiar with this. I had to consciously make a decision to stop learning system administration related tasks because it was taking away from my network learning. Now I keep up just enough to be able to run my servers as a network engineer (nms, netflow collector, svn repo for configs, etc).

And while it's true that you can't be a jack of all trades and an expert in everything, you still have to keep your fingers in a whole lot of pies, especially if you're going to consult, as you'll never know what quirks a client will throw at you. Nothing pisses me off more than beginning work on a clients network only to discover that there's something like a PIX that no one mentioned. And it's in the traffic path.

I can generally find my way around linux and get things to work and I get more proficient every day since I use it a lot at home for various things. I do some light scripting, etc. Same thing with most MS products. AD is no problem. I'm comfortable with a whole lot of stuff in it actually. I've done exchange migrations, gone through troubleshooting to fix really screwed up AD, and all that crap. I can do it, or figure out anything i don't know with a bit of research, but it's just not thrilling to me and I don't want it to be a core focus of my career. I think it was even you that referred to the "ghetto of systems administration." That echoes my sentiments exactly. Mostly, I want to stay away from end users as much as possible. God bless those people in helpdesk.

Forsaken_GA

Well, I've never been a big fan of the way Microsoft implements the majority of it's services. And to be fair, I didn't like the way Netware did it either, before Microsoft stole it's directory services, made it more heinous, and repackaged it.

If you have an aptitude for learning, an affinity for computer technology, and an internet connection for Google, you can usually get yourself out of most problems without anyone being the wiser that you just figured something out and implemented it on the fly.

If Google ever went away (and by Google, I mean Google, Yahoo, Bing, etc... all the major search engines), I suspect you'd find an awful lot of tech people who all of a sudden became less capable of doing their jobs.

But I'm glad for Google, because it allows me to be a better generalist, while I can focus my attention on becoming a specialist.

SysAdmin4066

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

And while it's true that you can't be a jack of all trades and an expert in everything, you still have to keep your fingers in a whole lot of pies, especially if you're going to consult, as you'll never know what quirks a client will throw at you.

Please listen to Forsaken. Am I missing something or didnt you say you wanted to be a consultant? All of the consultants I know are pretty much jack of all trades, because it's very competitive out there. I understand I guess if all you are interested in is network projects, but you are limiting your income potential without at least minimal focus on the systems side. AD engineering can be quite lucrative, as can Exchange. I do a few side projects throughout the year , and I am able to take home about 10 - 15k on top of my 100k+ salary at my "day" job. And certs like the MCSE, MCITP, MCTS, have helped to put me in contention for those projects. Again, these certs are marketing tools. For the companies they represent, but also for YOU, the product that you're selling. If you're looking for a JOB in a NOC, as my friend Forsaken has, then sure, systems admin experience and certs are probably irrelevant. But if you're looking to get the next contract, you may want to at least be ABLE to expand your marketability if need be. I actually instruct as well, Microsoft products, and I'm looking at Cisco instruction once i'm finished with the track i'm on, which can also be pretty lucrative. Cant teach what you dont have. And that's another source of income, and another bullet point on your resume. Sales is the game, i'm telling you the truth. You are making yourself marketable with these pieces of paper. Nothing more. They dont affect what you can or cant do. Only what other people's perception of your skills are. Become an expert in the things you're interested in knowledgewise, but know as much about everything else as you possibly can and certify that knowledge. Ok i'm off my soapbox, back to work. I have a network management suite server to finish configuring today

ciscog33k

I agree with you sysadmin. At this point it's really about prioritization for me. What sort of investment in time/money will pay off the most soonest? I think ccvp will best do that for me. Once I land my next job I can reasses my cert paths. I definitely want to focus on the network side though. I kinda doubt there are a lot of networking consultants doing big AD or exchange deployments. Personally I'd rather team up with a good ms guy than try to skate by in an area that wasn't my area of expertise. Pick your battles IMO because there are only so many hours in the day...