Good news or bad? IOS v15

SephStormSephStorm Member Posts: 1,732
Licensing changes in IOS 15 target use of illicit Cisco IOS emulators

Licensing changes in IOS 15 target users of illicit Cisco IOS emulators.

"With the release of IOS 15, users will need to punch a registration key into every machine running it to verify the software license. Cisco licenses its IOS feature sets at the time of purchase and when users purchase upgrade licenses at a later date. But students and professionals who have sought to experiment and practice at home -- but didn't want to pay thousands of dollars to do so -- had found a loophole years ago.

As long as you had a Cisco Connection Online (CCO) account, or knew someone who would share one, you could update any router with any feature set without Cisco's checking the license, according to users. Those same IOS software images could be used in a free and powerful Cisco IOS emulator, such as Dynamips, to give users the same experience as working on an actual Cisco router.

"The problem is at the upper certification levels, you pretty much have to do practical labs using real hardware on your own. A lot of people can't afford to buy $10,000 to $20,000 worth of equipment to practice on," said Stretch, who is calling on the company to develop "educational" licenses that are feature-rich but limited in some performance, such as maximum throughput support.

In response to questions about the IOS 15 updates, Cisco issued a statement defending its changes and encouraging users who want to practice and learn -- without a Cisco IOS emulator -- to utilize its Learning Partner Training Program and Cisco Networking Academy."

So, good news or bad news?
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Comments

  • mikej412mikej412 Member Posts: 10,086 ■■■■■■■■■■
    SephStorm wrote: »
    With the release of IOS 15, users will need to punch a registration key into every machine running it to verify the software license.
    The 7200 15.0 Advanced IP Services IOS runs under Dynamips and has never prompted me, er... I mean my friend in Las Vegas, for a registration code.

    Do the newer routers that run 15.0 and require the registration code still run MIPS processors that can be emulated by Dynamips? icon_scratch.gif

    Was there a follow up article to this complaining that Cisco uses ASICs in their switches to prevent people from emulating those? icon_rolleyes.gif

    Rack rental is always an option.
    :mike: Cisco Certifications -- Collect the Entire Set!
  • notgoing2failnotgoing2fail Member Posts: 1,138
    I'm not sure where I stand on this. What about down the road when people buy used eBay equipment with IOS version 15+?

    Will they still have to punch in a code? I just don't understand how this licensing works.

    What about companies with magnificent cisco engineers or general engineers who know just enough cisco to get the job done but don't have a CCO?

    Does Juniper have such a license mechanism? Will this deter people from using Cisco and going to Juniper?
  • hexemhexem Member Posts: 177
    Well let's see...this already goes on with PIX / ASA devices, you can still use those within dynamip's but invalid license = limited functionality.

    They really do need to create a release of each version specifically for people training within cisco, create a limited license for purchase for use on dynamip's or something along those lines..
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  • notgoing2failnotgoing2fail Member Posts: 1,138
    hexem wrote: »
    Well let's see...this already goes on with PIX / ASA devices, you can still use those within dynamip's but invalid license = limited functionality.

    They really do need to create a release of each version specifically for people training within cisco, create a limited license for purchase for use on dynamip's or something along those lines..


    I'm wondering how much of their revenue comes from people who buy equipment for CCIE labs?

    Even with Microsoft, you need a valid license with their OS. But if you pass that PC around to different people, you can still use the OS. I'm not sure what the technical side of it is and the legality....

    I just hope that the licensing doesn't try to get too "cute" and people start jumping ship and going to Juniper....
  • mikem2temikem2te Member Posts: 407
    I'm not sure where I stand on this. What about down the road when people buy used eBay equipment with IOS version 15+?

    Will they still have to punch in a code? I just don't understand how this licensing works.

    What about companies with magnificent cisco engineers or general engineers who know just enough cisco to get the job done but don't have a CCO?

    Does Juniper have such a license mechanism? Will this deter people from using Cisco and going to Juniper?

    It is a concern. I'm a fan of having my own real equipment so in an ideal world Cisco should make limited licenses available for our purposes - complete with all features but limited throughput. I'd still have to fully license my internet router but i'd have to live with that.

    I did try runing 15.0 on one of my 2801's, it hinted at having new licensing features by having a 'show licenses' command, which from memory displayed info for Gatekeeper and IPS licenses but both were in an 8 week 'evaluation' mode. The times did not actually count down thoughicon_scratch.gif.

    My thinking is maybe the some of the older ISR routers may just get away with running 15.0 without entering keys & codes but the later ISR2 router will need it. If that is the case imagine the prices on ebay shot through the roof.

    I did read something on the old internet a while ago that in light of the new licensing/registration requirement, Cisco were going to announce something "we would all like" to suit our training purposes. Fingers crossed!!
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  • mikej412mikej412 Member Posts: 10,086 ■■■■■■■■■■
    I'm wondering how much of their revenue comes from people who buy equipment for CCIE labs?
    They get nothing from the 2nd hand market sales -- and unless someone does buy some of the more recent hardware and buys the SmartNet support contracts for each device, they probably don't see much $$ from that.

    Most of the large rack companies are probably Cisco Partners and get the big discounts. They may do the Smartnet contracts for the devices so that they don't piss off Cisco....
    :mike: Cisco Certifications -- Collect the Entire Set!
  • mikem2temikem2te Member Posts: 407
    I'm wondering how much of their revenue comes from people who buy equipment for CCIE labs?
    Don't CCIE's have access to all cisco software anyway?
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  • notgoing2failnotgoing2fail Member Posts: 1,138
    mikem2te wrote: »
    It is a concern. I'm a fan of having my own real equipment so in an ideal world Cisco should make limited licenses available for our purposes - complete with all features but limited throughput. I'd still have to fully license my internet router but i'd have to live with that.

    I did try runing 15.0 on one of my 2801's, it hinted at having new licensing features by having a 'show licenses' command, which from memory displayed info for Gatekeeper and IPS licenses but both were in an 8 week 'evaluation' mode. The times did not actually count down thoughicon_scratch.gif.

    My thinking is maybe the some of the older ISR routers may just get away with running 15.0 without entering keys & codes but the later ISR2 router will need it. If that is the case imagine the prices on ebay shot through the roof.

    I did read something on the old internet a while ago that in light of the new licensing/registration requirement, Cisco were going to announce something "we would all like" to suit our training purposes. Fingers crossed!!


    I have my fingers crossed too, I think the most reasonable approach is to allow a fully working IOS with extreme limited throughout. Now that would be perfect because in a lab environment, if you just want to get your hands dirty, that's fine. Obviously it's not fine if you're testing throughput in your lab environment for a special purpose. :D

    Let's see what happens. As for your question about CCIE's. I thought I heard something about that as well. Hopefully someone can shed some more light on the topic.

    I'd hope a CCIE would have a little more credentials on cisco's site than a regular account....
  • notgoing2failnotgoing2fail Member Posts: 1,138
    mikej412 wrote: »
    They get nothing from the 2nd hand market sales -- and unless someone does buy some of the more recent hardware and buys the SmartNet support contracts for each device, they probably don't see much $$ from that.

    Most of the large rack companies are probably Cisco Partners and get the big discounts. They may do the Smartnet contracts for the devices so that they don't piss off Cisco....

    I'd bet that whatever licensing Cisco comes out with, they will have their partners in mind. It is in their best interest (i'm speculating here) that they keep their partners happy so they can continue to sell and preach Cisco....
  • mikej412mikej412 Member Posts: 10,086 ■■■■■■■■■■
    I'd bet that whatever licensing Cisco comes out with, they will have their partners in mind. It is in their best interest (i'm speculating here) that they keep their partners happy so they can continue to sell and preach Cisco....
    Unfortunately some Cisco Business Partners are in it for the money -- not love of the technology -- so the current "honor system" is costing Cisco (and it's shareholders) money.

    Same with some customers. If a company has 50 locations and skipped the SmartNet contract to save some money -- the customer can buy 1 upgrade or 1 SmartNet contract and upgrade all their branch routers with that one purchase and Cisco has no way to prevent that.
    :mike: Cisco Certifications -- Collect the Entire Set!
  • TurgonTurgon Banned Posts: 6,308 ■■■■■■■■■□
    It all comes down to $$$. Its an issue because many networks world wide have little or no smartnet contracts in place and the staff supporting them limited access to CCO and no training budget. The equipment and its given IOS is kosher but the ongoing support costs are not maintained through Smartnet. Its probably going to get harder for public domain people to get access to the latest IOS and train themselves up on the stuff at their own expense. Thats a shame because while Cisco dont pay you a dollar to invest in a homelab and give up your evenings and weekends to learn this stuff they reap revenue because you can support their gear in the field and will most probably recommend to your company that they buy more of it. Because you know something about it. Back in the 90's both Cisco and Novell practically gave stuff away for free to Universities worldwide so the engineers being trained on courses there would be both Cisco and Novell proficient and future evangelists. It was a pie chart decision based on expanding a market. I imagine this latest venture is a pie chart decision based on squeezing the market. Its all piecharts.
  • astorrsastorrs Member Posts: 3,139 ■■■■■■□□□□
    Turgon wrote: »
    I imagine this latest venture is a pie chart decision based on squeezing the market. Its all piecharts.
    mmm pie charts... yummy...

    introduction-to-asset-allocation1.jpg

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  • notgoing2failnotgoing2fail Member Posts: 1,138
    astorrs wrote: »
    mmm pie charts... yummy...

    introduction-to-asset-allocation1.jpg

    *** We now return you to your regularly scheduled postings ***


    Looks like 3 subnets, two with 100 hosts each and the other about 510....
  • johnwest43johnwest43 Member Posts: 294
    I agree with Turgon. I think if they get to greedy we may see newcomers looking into different brands of network equipment. It makes no sense to have the best equipment on the market if no one knows how to use it. I don't see anyone paying for a smart-net agreement for multiple pieces of equipment just so they can learn how to use it! I for one would not be studying for my CCNA right now if the lab equipment wasn't available at a decent price.

    Ive also wondered if the licensing agreement would hold up in court. I wonder if anyone has ever be sued for using a second hand piece of equipment.

    I actually asked a technical rep (called the 1-800 number) if it was ok to use the IOS second hand. His response was " yes its just not covered by cisco if something goes wrong".
    CCNP: ROUTE B][COLOR=#ff0000]x[/COLOR][/B , SWITCH B][COLOR=#ff0000]x[/COLOR][/B, TSHOOT [X ] Completed on 2/18/2014
  • mikej412mikej412 Member Posts: 10,086 ■■■■■■■■■■
    johnwest43 wrote: »
    I think if they get to greedy we may see newcomers looking into different brands of network equipment.
    Right now you can build a decent CCNA hardware lab for under $250 (routers & switches).

    The cheapest Juniper J2300 is over $400 on eBay -- but only one of the T1 ports is licensed for use. If you want the 2nd T1 that is physically already there to work you have to send Juniper some $$ to get the license. The cheapest Juniper switches I've seen on eBay are $2000+

    And Juniper rack rental slots are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more expensive than Cisco rack rentals. I've see the cost to rent Juniper racks go by the router -- and a single M series router costs more to rent for 2 hours than an entire CCIE rack for 12 hours.

    So unless Netgear, Belkin, D-Link, CheapImportVendor suddenly starts selling enterprise level (and quality) network hardware, Cisco has a long way to go before they piss off a lot of the experienced Cisco professionals to the point that it cuts into their profits.

    While it's nice to have real hardware at home to practice on, lots of people currently get by with simulators, emulators, school labs, work labs, friend's labs, reasonably priced rack rentals, or lab pods access as part of their work paid official training at Cisco Training Centers.
    :mike: Cisco Certifications -- Collect the Entire Set!
  • mikej412mikej412 Member Posts: 10,086 ■■■■■■■■■■
    tiersten wrote: »

    Or the original thread where we first heard about the IOS activation in March 2007 -- http://www.techexams.net/forums/ccie/19428-future-cisco-ios-images.html
    :mike: Cisco Certifications -- Collect the Entire Set!
  • tazdeviltazdevil Member Posts: 55 ■■□□□□□□□□
    There is also 3Com and HP ProCurve as well for enterprise markets.
    ICND1 - Passed March 19/2010
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  • ColbyGColbyG Member Posts: 1,264
    tazdevil wrote: »
    There is also 3Com and HP ProCurve as well for enterprise markets.

    hahahaha, surely you jest
  • mikem2temikem2te Member Posts: 407
    tazdevil wrote: »
    There is also 3Com and HP ProCurve as well for enterprise markets.
    3Com - Never again. In my experience they seem to have a serviceable life of about 4 years before the power supplies started to fail.
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  • notgoing2failnotgoing2fail Member Posts: 1,138
    mikej412 wrote: »
    Right now you can build a decent CCNA hardware lab for under $250 (routers & switches).

    The cheapest Juniper J2300 is over $400 on eBay .........


    I don't claim to know Juniper products very well but from my experience just being around the block, Juniper does seem more expensive and I'm not sure why. I would think that if they wanted to gain traction on Cisco's camp, they would be competitive economically. I have experience with their Netscreen firewalls. Before they were even part of Juniper. I beleive the company was just called Netscreen. Anyways, they were new on the block, the FW was easy to configure and eventually Juniper bought them out. I have a couple of Netscreens, but I have no use for them as I have no desire to learn their ScreenOS....

    They are kinda like the Apple of networking. LOL....that might be a bad analogy....

    mikem2te wrote: »
    3Com - Never again. In my experience they seem to have a serviceable life of about 4 years before the power supplies started to fail.

    This one company about 3-4 years ago I consulted at had 3COM HUBS!! And lots of them. They were getting CRAZY collisions, the entire rack was lit up in orange it was amazing....

    I presented to them a nice roadmap to go from 3COM to Cisco. They wanted me to give them 3 options. Highest end equipment, medium and low-end.

    The high end were Cisco 6500's, medium were the 3500 series and low end were linksys switches. Guess which one they chose? icon_twisted.gif


    I cautioned them about the linksys and that I only threw that in there to show what you COULD get at that price but you get what you pay for. Well, they went with the linksys.

    To make it worse, they didn't even hire me. They bought it themselves and configured it. Then I get a call that they weren't happy with the setup!!!

    And I'm thinking, "What setup?"

    Customer - "oh yeahhh, we went with the linksys, we're having performance issues, can you come take a look?"

    Suffice it to say, I was pissssssed.....

    I'll stop my rant now.....
  • ColbyGColbyG Member Posts: 1,264
    I don't claim to know Juniper products very well but from my experience just being around the block, Juniper does seem more expensive and I'm not sure why. I would think that if they wanted to gain traction on Cisco's camp, they would be competitive economically. I have experience with their Netscreen firewalls. Before they were even part of Juniper. I beleive the company was just called Netscreen. Anyways, they were new on the block, the FW was easy to configure and eventually Juniper bought them out. I have a couple of Netscreens, but I have no use for them as I have no desire to learn their ScreenOS....

    They are kinda like the Apple of networking. LOL....that might be a bad analogy....

    In my experience, Juniper is actually significantly cheaper than Cisco. Mike is comparing prices on Ebay. Juniper gear is more expensive on Ebay due to supply and demand, there is a lot less Juniper in the market/on Ebay, which means the second hand prices will be higher.
  • DevilWAHDevilWAH Member Posts: 2,997 ■■■■■■■■□□
    mikem2te wrote: »
    I did read something on the old internet a while ago that in light of the new licensing/registration requirement, Cisco were going to announce something "we would all like" to suit our training purposes. Fingers crossed!!

    I do hoe if they do introduce something like this they remember that people learning are not the richest in the world. And set fair prices that allow learnign with out have ing to constanlty purches new features, or be hit by limitations.

    I have always said that Cisco make money by allowing device emulation in things like diynmaps where users can test features before purchase.

    It will never happen but it would be great to see cisco work with some one from the dynamaps camp to produce IOSs' that are locked in to it, and througput limited for simulations purposes.
    • If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
    • An arrow can only be shot by pulling it backward. So when life is dragging you back with difficulties. It means that its going to launch you into something great. So just focus and keep aiming.
  • Forsaken_GAForsaken_GA Member Posts: 4,024
    ColbyG wrote: »
    In my experience, Juniper is actually significantly cheaper than Cisco. Mike is comparing prices on Ebay. Juniper gear is more expensive on Ebay due to supply and demand, there is a lot less Juniper in the market/on Ebay, which means the second hand prices will be higher.

    It depends on the equipment. We're trying to get MX series routers to replace our 6500's, and having a hard time getting management to understand that, yes, the chassis is very expensive, but when you figure in the per port cost, it's cheaper than a Cisco solution, and we're looking at being absolutely required to either upgrade our supervisors and line cards in the next few years, or migrating to another platform.

    And we just dropped our SmartNet contracts on our 6500's last month, I'm waiting for the hammer to fall.
  • Forsaken_GAForsaken_GA Member Posts: 4,024
    tazdevil wrote: »
    There is also 3Com and HP ProCurve as well for enterprise markets.

    3com.... yeah, that's not happening.

    And I have colo customers with ProCurve switches. The ones who still have them, do so because they're too cheap to buy decent kit. The ones who used to have them valued performance over cost and eventually upgraded to 3560E's
  • AldurAldur Juniper Moderator Member Posts: 1,460
    mikej412 wrote: »
    The cheapest Juniper J2300 is over $400 on eBay -- but only one of the T1 ports is licensed for use. If you want the 2nd T1 that is physically already there to work you have to send Juniper some $$ to get the license.

    It's this way with older versions of code, anything 8.4 or later, possible earlier, allows you to use all the T1 ports without any licensing.
    mikej412 wrote: »
    The cheapest Juniper switches I've seen on eBay are $2000+

    True, while this sucks for getting a cheap Juniper switch to practice on, if you compare a similar Cisco switch with similar forwarding capacity it's probably a good deal. But still, it's limiting when wanting to get gear to practice on.
    Juniper does seem more expensive and I'm not sure why. I would think that if they wanted to gain traction on Cisco's camp, they would be competitive economically.

    I don't want to start a flame war here but typically a Juniper solution is less expensive in initial cost and TOC then a Cisco solution. This of course is if you are comparing comparable products, without a doubt a high end Juniper router is going to cost more then a low end Cisco router.

    But to the OP, I think that this will really impact people learning cisco equipment. I'm currently studying for the ccna and really don't want to buy more lab equipment and so using dynamips is a godsend. If I was unable to do this in the future it would slow down my learning of cisco equipment/material considerably. To me it just seems like a bad idea to limit the use of simulating material out there.
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  • notgoing2failnotgoing2fail Member Posts: 1,138
    Aldur wrote: »
    I don't want to start a flame war here but typically a Juniper solution is less expensive in initial cost and TOC then a Cisco solution. This of course is if you are comparing comparable products, without a doubt a high end Juniper router is going to cost more then a low end Cisco router.

    But to the OP, I think that this will really impact people learning cisco equipment. I'm currently studying for the ccna and really don't want to buy more lab equipment and so using dynamips is a godsend. If I was unable to do this in the future it would slow down my learning of cisco equipment/material considerably. To me it just seems like a bad idea to limit the use of simulating material out there.

    Oh no don't get me wrong. Juniper could very well be better in pricing, I wanted to make sure I came off as stating that I don't know Juniper products all that well, so if they are cheaper apples to apples wise then it is what it is...

    I hope Cisco treads lightly, I really don't know where they are going with the IOS, I haven't had time to read it and right now I'm too busy studying. But I sure hope they keep the less fortunate people who can't afford even eBay equipment in mind.

    I honestly think the best approach is to offer full functionality of their IOS with very limited throughput or some function that makes it useless in production other than being in a lab....

    Since we're on the topic of Juniper I have 2 of their firewalls I would be glad to get rid of if anyone wants them for a fair price.

    5GT-Wireless and 5XP
  • AldurAldur Juniper Moderator Member Posts: 1,460
    I hope Cisco treads lightly, I really don't know where they are going with the IOS, I haven't had time to read it and right now I'm too busy studying. But I sure hope they keep the less fortunate people who can't afford even eBay equipment in mind.

    I honestly think the best approach is to offer full functionality of their IOS with very limited throughput or some function that makes it useless in production other than being in a lab....

    Seriously, I don't see what requiring licenses for the software will do other then limiting their use in simulators.

    I like the idea about limited through put. In cert study throughput is pretty much pointless, somewhat nice if you are testing QOS features, but not necessary. And if throughput was limited then there would be no reason to use this 'training' image in production.

    Either way if IOS goes this route then there will be alot less people getting cisco certs icon_sad.gif
    "Bribe is such an ugly word. I prefer extortion. The X makes it sound cool."

    -Bender
  • DevilWAHDevilWAH Member Posts: 2,997 ■■■■■■■■□□
    I could just see CISCO, locking the IOS to hardware with a certificate based system icon_sad.gif That would pretty much end any chance of using them in simulation.

    I really hope that unlike the music industry the realise the benefits of allowing people to use the IOS in lab environments (both for training and mock up purposes).

    I can Imagen its annoying to see unlicensed IOS's used in production networks, and I don't have any sympathy for people who get caught doing this.

    I do belive that people should be able pay what its worth to them (with in reason). And while a large company should be expected to pay big money for something that at the end of the day is central to the running of there company, and them making profits.

    The same can't be said of the guy starting out on there CCNA and trying to cobble together a lab from some old kit.

    I would like to see some thing like above with limited through put, but where you could purchase packs. Or they came with the CISCO books and where licences to a set software.

    What I really worry is that only cisco accadamy students will get access to them if they do come out, much like is the case with packet tracer.
    • If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
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  • johnwest43johnwest43 Member Posts: 294
    I think its cheesy that cisco wants a piece of the second hand action. If I buy a piece second hand and it breaks its my problem not theirs. If I buy a 2611 and put it in to production why should i have to buy a license? Thats kind of like buying a used car and having to pay the manufacturer before you can drive it.
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