The MBA thread

erpadmin

mikedisd2 wrote: »

Yeah, I can see how that would impede progress in a degree.

I meant in life, not the degree. He had already earned his Masters.

bellhead

Here's my post on an MBA...

I spent a lot of time looking at completing one several years ago, and MBA's are divided into two different groups.

General MBA's....Most colleges and universities offer an MBA today because it is a good way for the college to make some additional money. Students are charged a graduate rate about triple the cost of a regular undergrad rate. They concentrate on management, accounting, theory, and some financial math. Most employer's will look upon an MBA as a check mark on your way to a middle management director type job. It shows you are willing to punch out additional work in order to be successful, but it isn't a make it or break it type situation.

Elite MBA's....These are the one's I was looking at, They are the schools ranked by US News 1 to 20, Harvard, Fuqua at Duke, Wharton at Penn, Sloan at MIT. Graduates from these programs get top money, are usually recruited by several companies upon graduation, and 2/3's go to wall street, the other 1/3 goes consulting. The math being my friend told me was as every bit as hard as his EE math from Cornell and it was rough on the projects for other classes as well. He said everybody who goes there is extremely competitive.

I had a friend who did the Wharton route he was a EE major, before graduating he had several 100k offers in hand, this was in 98, but he also had a 75k educational loan because of it. He ended up going to silicon valley as a consultant. He gave me the advice on you need to take 2 years off of work do the elite degree and take the student loans out. I couldn't afford this with a family but in the end it was the right choice.

The two MBA types cost the same amount almost at the end, my advice would be to do the elite mba as the job prospects for it are great.

QHalo

My issue with going with an "Elite MBA" after I'm done with my BS is cost. Just purchasing a home and going to be about 30k in debt after I finish my BS is not conducive to adding another ~50k on top of student loan debt. And any of those schools is going to cost that and some. Trust me I would love to do it because I'm kind of tired of the position I'm in right now. I guess you gotta spend some money to make some.

Bl8ckr0uter

Do you guys know anything about Xaiver University (Cincinnati)? I hear their MBA program is pretty good but I can't find anything to confirm or deny that.

erpadmin

knwminus wrote: »

Do you guys know anything about Xaiver University (Cincinnati)? I hear their MBA program is pretty good but I can't find anything to confirm or deny that.

Jesuits take their education very seriously. A Jesuit education is usually very expensive (Jesuit: a very strict order of Catholic priests who primarily focus on education. You will learn from them, one way or another).

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

Jesuits take their education very seriously. A Jesuit education is usually very expensive (Jesuit: a very strict order of Catholic priests who primarily focus on education. You will learn from them, one way or another).

Yea I know the education is next go Godliness lol. There are ALOT of Catholic schools where I grew up (and a lot of Catholic school girls....). I either want to go somewhere at the very top like Harvard or something local and less costly. Has anyone mentioned the GRE or anything? I haven't even finished my BS yet but I was wondering about the difficulty of the test.

This looks like a cool program http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/2+2/

erpadmin

knwminus wrote: »

Yea I know the education is next go Godliness lol. There are ALOT of Catholic schools where I grew up (and a lot of Catholic school girls....). I either want to go somewhere at the very top like Harvard or something local and less costly. Has anyone mentioned the GRE or anything? I haven't even finished my BS yet but I was wondering about the difficulty of the test.

This looks like a cool program 2+2 Overview - MBA - Harvard Business School

It's not so much that it's a Catholic school....but a Jesuit one. Catholic schools in general are great (I graduated from a Catholic high school and had my way with a number of school girls during my day as a young lad, myself.), but Jesuits tend to be much more strict (generally). That's all I'm saying.

BTW, if I had it my way, I would definitely do Harvard. Of course, if I had it my way, Bill Gates would give me all his moolah too so I could spend half of it in Vegas.

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

It's not so much that it's a Catholic school....but a Jesuit one. Catholic schools in general are great (I graduated from a Catholic high school and had my way with a number of school girls during my day as a young lad, myself.), but Jesuits tend to be much more strict (generally). That's all I'm saying.

BTW, if I had it my way, I would definitely do Harvard. Of course, if I had it my way, Bill Gates would give me all his moolah too so I could spend half of it in Vegas.

Ah ok. I seriously am thinking about this Harvard thing but it cost to much. I have never taking the GRE so I wonder how difficult it is. It seems like they don't want to much (at least they don't say they want to much) on the academics but I am sure that is a lie. 40K a year though, man F that. I am looking for a scholarship.

petedude

knwminus wrote: »

This looks like a cool program 2+2 Overview - MBA - Harvard Business School

I'm told it is indeed a great program, and that name would be killer to have on the diploma-- not to mention it's reasonably priced given the prestige level.

Only bad news is, I'm told all of the Harvard programs require some sort of residency.

erpadmin

knwminus wrote: »

Ah ok. I seriously am thinking about this Harvard thing but it cost to much. I have never taking the GRE so I wonder how difficult it is. It seems like they don't want to much (at least they don't say they want to much) on the academics but I am sure that is a lie. 40K a year though, man F that. I am looking for a scholarship.

I didn't want to sound discouraging about the Harvard thing. Sorry (really). It's just that it's so expensive.

As for GREs, they have a bunch of test-prep places, like Kaplan that can help you prepare. Just like how they had it for the ACTs/SATs. It's not an easy test, but it's no harder than, say, a CCNA with the proper prep (from what others have told me). Hopefully someone who's taken it can chime in and confirm that.

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

I didn't want to sound discouraging about the Harvard thing. Sorry (really). It's just that it's so expensive.

You weren't. I just looked at the "First year cost". 40k a year is just too damn much.

wd40

QHalo wrote: »

My issue with going with an "Elite MBA" after I'm done with my BS is cost. Just purchasing a home and going to be about 30k in debt after I finish my BS is not conducive to adding another ~50k on top of student loan debt. And any of those schools is going to cost that and some. Trust me I would love to do it because I'm kind of tired of the position I'm in right now. I guess you gotta spend some money to make some.

Exactly, for me loan installments will be like 25% of my monthly pay for 7 years, which means I can forget about getting a house or even a new car, but I'm counting on doubling my salary by getting a much better job because of the "Elite MBA"

Bl8ckr0uter

petedude wrote: »

I'm told it is indeed a great program, and that name would be killer to have on the diploma-- not to mention it's reasonably priced given the prestige level.

Only bad news is, I'm told all of the Harvard programs require some sort of residency.

I mean I wonder (with the right employer) if that could be worked out. With all the remote access technology we have at our disposal we should be able to take care of that.

I will be transferring to a 4 year school as a JR in a few months that's why I am wondering about it.

bellhead

wd40 wrote: »

Exactly, for me loan installments will be like 25% of my monthly pay for 7 years, which means I can forget about getting a house or even a new car, but I'm counting on doubling my salary by getting a much better job because of the "Elite MBA"

If you graduate from one of the "elites" you are looking at above 100k a year to start plus a signing bonus, most of the bonuses are from 10 to 50k. Usually what it costs to get established in the Big Apple.....Yea, the cost of 100k+ sucks big donkey dick but if you are under 30 it's your key to a 100k job for 30 years plus.

Here's another example how many MBA types from normal schools are unemployed right now vs. someone who has a degree from Harvard? Here's an even better one my best friend growing up has a Masters in Biology "he was the class honor student" from Harvard he completed it while he worked for Wyeth the drug company as a research assistant, he was recruited by several companies during his last semester because he was going to graduate from Harvard, he was already accepted into Temple dental so he turned them down, but the Harvard degree carries weight. The degree itself from one of the elites carries a ton of weight and will open doors that no certification can.

ssampier

I don't have an undergraduate business degree. As I mentioned I am considering my MBA or MIS degree. Should I bother taking some undergraduate business classes locally in preparation?

I was going to go this fall for a few accounting and stats classes, but my cert path and looking for a job is crowding my time

As for Ivy League versus regular, I would say yes if you could get in and eventually pay it back. I think you need to be really in touch with what you really want to do. For that much time, blood, sweat, and tears you must really want to be a CIO, CTO, CEO or a highly-paid consultant.

My goals are more vague right now; be successful, make business decisions, and ultimately, feel respected.

I want a middle ground option between Ivy League and the local no-name college.

QHalo

There are plenty of good business graduate schools that aren't Ivy League that are still highly ranked and won't cost you a house payment to pay for.

GAngel

Just a few things. Don't wate your time with the GRE write the GMAT it's the standard and although some schools are accepting GRE now alot of high end employers/academia want your gmat score. The GMAT is based on grade 10 math there isn't anything hard about it it's just learning to do math tricks to help you answer the questions faster. The mba was invented for non business grads to get a grounding in finance/commerce that's all.

ROI is also subjective. I'm 200k into my education and for me it was well worth the cost The real ROI would be unappealing for most people if they took the top 10% off the average salary list these colleges tout.

You don't get an MBA based on the cost and you certainly don't get it looking to land in senior management right out unless you are from one of the elite schools. In most cases you should go to a school where you want to live with a great regional reputation among the business commuity. You'll be spending your time smoozingthem anyways. Don't buy the hype its a lie and the entire busines world will tell you that. Look at jobs requiring mba's and look at the stuff they want besides the degree.

erpadmin

GAngel wrote: »

You don't get an MBA based on the cost and you certainly don't get it looking to land in senior management right out unless you are from one of the elite schools.

I will give you senior management, but I would definitely be happy with at least middle management with a MBA (or even an MS in Management) right out the gate. At least with that, one can move up to senior management after 5-7 years.

GAngel

erpadmin wrote: »

I will give you senior management, but I would definitely be happy with at least middle management with a MBA (or even an MS in Management) right out the gate. At least with that, one can move up to senior management after 5-7 years.

Then I'd suggest you already have a pretty decent resume before hand or you may be very dis-appointed.

Turgon

I think you need to be realistic before you shell out money you dont have on an MBA. Ask yourself the question what have I got going for me coming into an MBA program and where is it going to take me after it is finished. Having an MBA will always impress some people but lots of people have MBA's these days and in many cases it hasn't taken them very far.

You have to be careful of falling into the trap that this qualification or this degree is going to be a gamechanger. Life is much more subtle than that. What it will do is suck more future earnings from people who already have loans from college and a mortgage. The banks will lend and the Universities will gladly take it from you, but you have to pay for that years down the line and quite frankly Im not sure a good number of people working in IT should take that risk.

A credible MBA candidate already has managerial experience under their belt, ideally a few years of it as well as a decent track record of accomplishments at that level within a company. My observation in our industry is that if by time you are 25 or at the latest 30 years of age if you are not already holding down significant managerial and at least departmental budgetary responsibilities and have a say in project definition and strategic choices then the chances are you most probably never will do. Getting an MBA will not in and of itself compensate for the lack of this experience or necessarily provide you with access to it. In fact it can leave you under experienced and overqualified. Meanwhile you are stuck with the longterm payment plan..

So I would say you need to critically assess your direction of travel regarding these things before committing to the MBA track. If it's really what you want to do then you should be getting the kind of experience that warrants an MBA. Talk to your company and explain your goals. If you work for a corporate you may find that they will fund employees to go through an MBA track, however you will need to justify to the company that you are worth the investment. This will be assessed based on past performance and the extent to which the company has plans for you.

Be aware that within the ranks of corporates the MBA is zealously defended by executives who already have them and they can be quite hard on 'Just another MBA' who wants a job but when scratching beneath the surface has no trackrecord to back it up. Fail.

So there are somethings to think about there. Another is the class itself. A good MBA course has high calibre students with good experience and lots of things to talk about and leverage in class. You want to be making good connections with these people to pave a way for a good job post MBA but that can be difficult if your inexperience comes to the attention of your fellow students.

Very expensive MBA classes have been mentioned. To be honest the fasttrack to senior management for many people is established while they are in the womb. They get an expensive education, go to the right college and have a network of connections that opens a fasttrack to executive life. I saw something on youtube the other day where the famous French spiderman was climbing the RBS block in Australia and all the city traders and executives came outside to marvel at him. I would imagine a few of them have Ivy league MBAs. They were young and pulling in stacks more money than anyone on TE I should imagine. There is a reason for that and Im not convinced it was down to shelling out on an MBA on the side. They have been doing the right kind of work for years and they pretty much sat on a conveyer belt to get it.

So what about the rest of us? Well, get some experience and raise your profile at work.

Contrast that with the Billy Joel song Allentown where the line goes..

'So the graduations hang on the wall, but they never really helped us at all, they never told us what was real, iron and coke, chromium steel..so were waiting here in Allentown..'

replace iron and coke with whatever you are doing, AD account management, SQL scripting, IOS upgrades..while IT workers are white collar workers, many of them these days are the new blue collar workers..

So become a true white collar IT worker and then look at the MBA. Get supervisory (at least) or management experience, get control of budgets, get into more meetings, get into serious design and architecture work.

An MBA can be beneficial but everything in context! It's your money and the economic forecast next year is not good. If the wrong pie chart appears at head office you could lose your job.

garv221

IMO I'm all for an MBA. It is the only thing an employer asks for which cannot be substituted by experience or certs.

Turgon

garv221 wrote: »

IMO I'm all for an MBA. It is the only thing an employer asks for which cannot be substituted by experience or certs.

It can certainly tick a box if it is a requirement but it is not a guaranteed ticket to the bigtime.

GAngel

garv221 wrote: »

IMO I'm all for an MBA. It is the only thing an employer asks for which cannot be substituted by experience or certs.

That is actually a lie. If a job requires an mba a CFA,CMA or finance/actuarial experience will most definately be counted and valued as well if not higher especially the bigger the company you apply to. It toally depends on the field you're going into. The career changers who get mba's start at the bottom.

garv221

Turgon wrote: »

It can certainly tick a box if it is a requirement but it is not a guaranteed ticket to the bigtime.

True. Nothing is a guaranteed ticket.

GAngel wrote: »

That is actually a lie. If a job requires an mba a CFA,CMA or finance/actuarial experience will most definately be counted and valued as well if not higher especially the bigger the company you apply to. It toally depends on the field you're going into. The career changers who get mba's start at the bottom.

I'm talking IT. If you want a director position in a large company with some small exceptions a Masters is needed. Someone cannot slide into 120k management position with some random certs and nice smile.

erpadmin

GAngel wrote: »

The career changers who get mba's start at the bottom.

If by career changers, you mean from going from lowly help desk support technication, to being an Financial Analyst, then I would be apt to agree with you. But I think the purpose of this thread was for those of us in IT who want to get an MBA for positions in IT management and/or as perhaps a higher level functional/technical analyst (that will hopefully parlay into a position of IT management).

I disagree, as I believe I stated earlier in this thread, that you need an MBA to get or keep a position into IT. You have kids still in high school who can break into IT terribly easy today, especially if they are coming from those vo/tech schools where you are taking A+ courses instead of woodshop, auto mechanics, or whatever they teach in vo/tech. But I do find there is value in an MBA depending on one's level of experience within IT.

Every IT department has a budget (much unlike the 90s when IT was driving businesses, instead of the other way around). An IT manager with an MBA background can probably justify his budget as well as effectively manage his department (on paper, of course). A CIO/CTO would definitely benefit from a MBA in his background. An MBA would definitely get someone a better shot at management vs. someone who doesn't have one.

I'm a college dropout (for lack of a better term) and I make a very nice salary...almost 6 figures, but not there yet. There is no way that I, personally, wouldn't get a IT management job with an MBA demanding twice what I currently make (or at least 2/3s of double...lol) I am currently back in school, but prior to that, I was in fact a college dropout. I recognize the value of a bachelor's (I always have...), but I see the value of an MBA to be even more valuable and if marketed right...can definitely unlock doors for me.

At the very worst, I can always be an adjunct professor at local colleges after retirement. The pocket change would be appreciated.

petedude

. . . and a bump to the thread.

Apparently, US News & World Report will start ranking online schools next year. I think this will prove useful to students and help erode the "online degree" stigma.

cxzar20

Be very weary of employment statistics that colleges put out. Just ask any law school graduate.

higherho

Very true cxzar20. Also can anyone explain the major differences between the MBA program provided by WGU versus others? I been debating the MBA program their or their other masters degree they other for IT people.

Turgon

A lot of MBAs are not worth the paper they are printed on. This was explained to me 20 years ago. Nothing has changed other than the quantity increasing and the quality diluting. It's your money. Buyer beware.

'Most of these Harvard MBA types - they don't add up to dogshit. Give me guys that are poor, smart, hungry - and no feelings. when you feel, you lose a few, but you keep on fighting.~ Gordon Gekko'



Read more: Quotes from Movie Wall Street :: Finest Quotes

higherho

Turgon wrote: »

A lot of MBAs are not worth the paper they are printed on. This was explained to me 20 years ago. Nothing has changed other than the quantity increasing and the quality diluting. It's your money. Buyer beware.

'Most of these Harvard MBA types - they don't add up to dogshit. Give me guys that are poor, smart, hungry - and no feelings. when you feel, you lose a few, but you keep on fighting.~ Gordon Gekko'



Read more: Quotes from Movie Wall Street :: Finest Quotes

Interesting. thank you for the link. I will reconsider the MBA option and got for the Information SEcurity / Awareness (I been on the fence).