LPIC-1/2 (rhct/e) vs MCSA/E

Bl8ckr0uter

Hey all. I'd like to get your opinion on something. As some of you may or may not know, I have a strong interest in *nix and want to work with it on a full time bases. As I look for an entry level *nix position (they do not really exist), most of them want a VMware certification (which isn't that big of a deal), cisco knowledge, some storage and database knowledge and most of all Windows Certification. Now I know the Microsoft has a huge market share and with that comes name recognition. The MCSA/E are well known because that name recognition transfers into the certs as well. I planned on finishing the LPIC-1 this year. I don't expect the LPIC-1 (or 2) to have the same name recognition as the MCSA/E but I am beginning to wonder if it is worth it at all. Most jobs (even *nix jobs) require more windows certs than LPIC-1 (or red hat that matter). I have seen more completely windows jobs than completely *nix. Also it would seem that there are more JR level systems admin positions for windows than there are for *nix. The idea of scrapping the LPIC-1 completely and just going for the MCSA/E train has crossed my mind more than once. It would make sense, especially with my current job being mostly windows.


I am just wondering if the LPIs will do anything for my career or my resume. It would seem that it is extremely difficult to get hands on experience with *nix vs windows and that the windows jobs are more accessible. IDK I guess I'm just bitching. More on lol

dynamik

Yea, mostly whining. You'd probably be an MCSE and LPIC-3 if you put as much time into your studies as you did these types of posts

*nix certs simply aren't valued as much in those types of community. You're not going to get LPI-2 and have the phone start ringing off the hook. I'm interested in the LPI exams because it's a challenge and something to work towards. Getting proficient enough to pass those exams forces me to expand my knowledge. For me personally, it's going to be far more about personal growth.

You'll probably get a similar response that I have from the Linux+, and that is simply being able to show that you have some Linux experience. I've never got a call because of my L+, but many people have commented that it was good that I had some (even just a little) Linux experience.

You might want to try contacting and ISP or hosting provider. Those are often predominately Linux and would definitely be filled with tons of entry-level work.

You should always get certified in what's most beneficial to you and reflect what you're working/experienced with. The MCSE (don't half-ass it with the MCSA; if you're going to quit half-way, don't bother) will likely be much more beneficial for you, given what you've said. That doesn't mean you can't keep playing with Linux. You can still learn without getting certified.

rogue2shadow

dynamik wrote: »

Yea, mostly whining. You'd probably be an MCSE and LPIC-3 if you put as much time into your studies as you did these types of posts

*nix certs simply aren't valued as much in those types of community. You're not going to get LPI-2 and have the phone start ringing off the hook. I'm interested in the LPI exams because it's a challenge and something to work towards. Getting proficient enough to pass those exams forces me to expand my knowledge. For me personally, it's going to be far more about personal growth.

You'll probably get a similar response that I have from the Linux+, and that is simply being able to show that you have some Linux experience. I've never got a call because of my L+, but many people have commented that it was good that I had some (even just a little) Linux experience.

You might want to try contacting and ISP or hosting provider. Those are often predominately Linux and would definitely be filled with tons of entry-level work.

You should always get certified in what's most beneficial to you and reflect what you're working/experienced with. The MCSE (don't half-ass it with the MCSA; if you're going to quit half-way, don't bother) will likely be much more beneficial for you, given what you've said. That doesn't mean you can't keep playing with Linux. You can still learn without getting certified.

I'm in a similar mindset as brotha K. I already had in my head that I wasn't going to do MS (though I tried many times to lol) but this put the nail in the coffin.

earweed

rogue2shadow wrote: »

I'm in a similar mindset as brotha K. I already had in my head that I wasn't going to do MS (though I tried many times to lol) but this put the nail in the coffin.

The only thing is that Windows is just about everywhere. You'll be expected to know Linux at a lot of places but the MS certs will carry a lot of weight. I'm currently working on my Linux knowledge and don't have any near future plans to get Linux certs but just be able to use it if I work somewhere that has some linux in place.

phoeneous

knwminus wrote: »

Hey all. I'd like to get your opinion on something.

I thought you said you're not a cert chaser?

At this point I think you are spreaing yourself thin with certs and they might start working against you. Focus young grasshopper, focus. Trying to do Sec+, MCSE, and LPI at the same time is just way too much for anyone to really get some good content out of their respective certs.

rogue2shadow

earweed wrote: »

The only thing is that Windows is just about everywhere. You'll be expected to know Linux at a lot of places but the MS certs will carry a lot of weight. I'm currently working on my Linux knowledge and don't have any near future plans to get Linux certs but just be able to use it if I work somewhere that has some linux in place.

Very true. Its a catch 22. I just rhymed.

Bl8ckr0uter

dynamik wrote: »

You should always get certified in what's most beneficial to you and reflect what you're working/experienced with. The MCSE (don't half-ass it with the MCSA; if you're going to quit half-way, don't bother) will likely be much more beneficial for you, given what you've said. That doesn't mean you can't keep playing with Linux. You can still learn without getting certified.

The same thing could be said about MS. I could learn without getting certified. But yea I understand what you are saying.

Bl8ckr0uter

I just had an epiphany. It is foolish and prideful for me to say “I am not going to support MS or cut my teeth the same ways others have had to.” That’s a haughty mentality and it ends today. MCSX and LPIC-X here I come….at a good pace lol. AFTER I take the security+ next week.



See you guys later.

veritas_libertas

knwminus wrote: »

I just had an epiphany. It is foolish and prideful for me to say “I am not going to support MS or cut my teeth the same ways others have had to.” That’s a haughty mentality and it ends today. MCSX and LPIC-X here I come….at a good pace lol. AFTER I take the security+ next week.



See you guys later.

About time! LOL

Bl8ckr0uter

veritas_libertas wrote: »

About time! LOL

Ouch lol

rogue2shadow

knwminus wrote: »

I just had an epiphany. It is foolish and prideful for me to say “I am not going to support MS or cut my teeth the same ways others have had to.” That’s a haughty mentality and it ends today. MCSX and LPIC-X here I come….at a good pace lol. AFTER I take the security+ next week.



See you guys later.

lol. NOOO!!!!!!!

I hate flipping between certs but as the end of everything is finite, MS seems inevitable. If anything, I'll go straight to MCITP and do some messaging as well.

Bl8ckr0uter

rogue2shadow wrote: »

lol. NOOO!!!!!!!

I hate flipping between certs but as the end of everything is finite, MS seems inevitable. If anything, I'll go straight to MCITP and do some messaging as well.

We are still 90% Win2000/XP here with a 2003 DCs, mail servers, and 2008 file servers so it still makes sense for me to do the 2003 track. The other admin thinks he is going to be the one to retire the 2000 boxes but he has another thing coming lol.

RobertKaucher

knwminus wrote: »

I just had an epiphany. It is foolish and prideful for me to say “I am not going to support MS or cut my teeth the same ways others have had to.” That’s a haughty mentality and it ends today. MCSX and LPIC-X here I come….at a good pace lol. AFTER I take the security+ next week.



See you guys later.

Ok, here is my $0.02 on this topic.

Observations:
1. Certs cost money and take time from your family and other things that are potentially more enjoyable than studying for certs.
2. Accepting the above supposition is true certification should have a return in excess to the invested time/money or it is just foolish to get certified.
3. Accepting number 2 as true, and assuming you are not getting certifications simply as a hobby, certification should increase your career/earning potential.
4. If certification is to increase your career/earning potential at *more than* the entry level, it should reflect both your experience and your career path.

Let me explain. A guy working retail who wants to break into IT might go after the Net+/A+ and MCDST certs to get his foot in the door at the support level. A guy currently at the support level might try to break into systems administration by attaining the MCSA/MCSE. A guy working McDonald's who achieves his MCSE with no experience, will benifit from it far less than the guy who has 2 years of systems admin behind him. This is the entry level I am talking about.

Now, an IT generalist (one who works with routers, switches, servers, applications, pulling cable, scripting, MS Exchange, etc) would find it a good idea to certify at a mid level on a wide variety of items (mid level). Maybe he will get an MCTS on Exchange 2010 to go with his MCITP Server Admin and throw in a CCNA and something for Citrix. But what will he do once he wants to start specializing? If you have a 3 to 5 year career plan of breaking into pure network administration or working with Cisco equipment (voice/etc) then I see no point in continuing to certify on MS technologies. If you see yourself staying as an IT generalist for the next 3 years, maybe an MCSA is ok. But I would make this choice based on the 80/20 rule. Dedicate 80% of your time to studying and getting certified with the technology you wish to specialize in. Spend 20% of your time working on the things that will only help you do your current job better.

So if you are already working with the technologies you wish to specialize in, I would say spend the next 2 years trying to better yourself professionally from the perspective of your desired specialization.

Bl8ckr0uter

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Ok, here is my $0.02 on this topic.

Observations:
1. Certs cost money and take time from your family and other things that are potentially more enjoyable than studying for certs.
2. Accepting the above supposition is true certification should have a return in excess to the invested time/money or it is just foolish to get certified.
3. Accepting number 2 as true, and assuming you are not getting certifications simply as a hobby, certification should increase your career/earning potential.
4. If certification is to increase your career/earning potential at *more than* the entry level, it should reflect both your experience and your career path.

Very good points. This is the type of answer I wanted to get out of someone.

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Let me explain. A guy working retail who wants to break into IT might go after the Net+/A+ and MCDST certs to get his foot in the door at the support level. A guy currently at the support level might try to break into systems administration by attaining the MCSA/MCSE. A guy working McDonald's who achieves his MCSE with no experience, will benifit from it far less than the guy who has 2 years of systems admin behind him. This is the entry level I am talking about.

If you have a 3 to 5 year career plan of breaking into pure network administration or working with Cisco equipment (voice/etc) then I see no point in continuing to certify on MS technologies. If you see yourself staying as an IT generalist for the next 3 years, maybe an MCSA is ok. But I would make this choice based on the 80/20 rule. Dedicate 80% of your time to studying and getting certified with the technology you wish to specialize in. Spend 20% of your time working on the things that will only help you do your current job better.


So if you are already working with the technologies you wish to specialize in, I would say spend the next 2 years trying to better yourself professionally from the perspective of your desired specialization.

I agree with you 1000%. The issue is the second paragraph of this quote, specifically the word if. I am not working with the technologies I truly want to work with. Well that isn't 100% true, I am not working with the technologies to the scale and capacity that I would like. I like networking. I also like security. I like linux and I think I am becoming a virtualization fan boy as well. But the problem is we have a few switches, a VMware cluster that I don't get to touch (nor really log onto at all ) and 1 linux box. It is extremely difficult to work with the technologies that I want to work with in such a place. According to your rule, I should spend 80% of my time studying stuff that of course in the long term will help me, but in the short term won't help that much. Studying Cent/RH all day won't help me perform my windows duties better. My job won't really benefit from it because we probably aren't moving to very many *nix boxes anytime soon. However if I learn/certify in MS then they will see a benefit because 90% of our stuff is windows based. Exchange, SQL Server, soon to be sharepoint and so on. It becomes a battle of balancing long term goals and short term realities.

I do have a 3-5 year goal. I want to be a *nix/security engineer, working with storage, virtualization, and networking. To that end, I could go for LPI/SUN/Oracle/Storage certs but what good will it do me if I cannot get experience with these technologies at an enterprise level? There is only so much you can lab up and a company wouldn't hire a *nix admin (even a JR one) whose experience is mostly lab or academic. I have been told by more than a few people that you have to basically ease into *nix work and you don't just jump into it. The best way to get to that type of job is to get to a job that allows you to touch more linux servers. Well to that end, the MCSA/ITP makes sense, as since those jobs are hybrid, knowing more about MS and Linux makes sense to me.

RobertKaucher

knwminus wrote: »

The best way to get to that type of job is to get to a job that allows you to touch more linux servers. Well to that end, the MCSA/ITP makes sense, as since those jobs are hybrid, knowing more about MS and Linux makes sense to me.

Yes, that is true. And the best way to get one of those jobs is to have the Linux certs in conjunction with some mid-level MS certs like MCSA and maybe some of the enterprise application certs like SharePoint, etc.

Your condition is this: you are trying to move to a mid-level that is still generalized but allows you more contact with your chosen specialization. I don't think a slew of MS certs will be any better for you than just a few.

I also think you are wrong about easing into the *nix field. The problems that I see are that 1.) the field is a little more limited due to fewer companies having adopted it and 2.) your lack of hands on professional experience. But you have to consider that time is on your side and eventually you will find a someone who will hire your.

Here is what I suggest rather than spending a lot of money of MS certs.

1. Get either your MCSA or MCITP Server Admin.
2. Begin to look for problems at work that you can use Linux to solve. One thing I noticed at my last job was that people would get calls from external parters or customers and need to get information from another person. They'd hang up with the partner/customer and call the person and then call them back. I put in OpenFire and they thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Several people said "We already have email, why do we need IM?" But they quickly changed their toon when they saw how much easier it was to get a quick, real-time reply to questions.
3. Get involved in the local Linux community. CLUG | All Linux, All the Time This gets your face out there and will help you make contacts. If you are performing well at your job, I would say 2 hours a week spent there will server your career better than 2 hours a week dedicated to studying for your MCSE.

Bl8ckr0uter

RobertKaucher wrote: »

3. Get involved in the local Linux community. CLUG | All Linux, All the Time This gets your face out there and will help you make contacts. If you are performing well at your job, I would say 2 hours a week spent there will server your career better than 2 hours a week dedicated to studying for your MCSE.

^^^THIS^^^^

I have looked around for a user group that I could join and I could not find one. That is exactly what I needed. Thanks a ton, again! (Now I guess I better get to those books you gave me lol)

RobertKaucher

You really should not succumb to the idea that you are just not going to find someone who is going to give you a job without a significant amount of experience.

Many employers are far more concerned about the personality and work ethic of the candidate than the person’s knowledge/experience (not saying it is irrelevant). I think it is important that you not forget that. I see no draw backs and potential gains in you getting your MCSA, but considering your career plan I see no point in you spending the $1000+time to get the full MCSE. If the next career step you want to take is to a mixed environment with more Linux, my personal opinion is that some MS stuff with a larger focus on Linux would be a better study route. Certification has a certain gravity to it. The more you study MS tech like SharePoint and SQL Server the more likely you are to get sucked into it and get side tracked. The next thing you know you are grumpy old DBA somewhere who is constantly hounding the network team because of the latency on your wires but really its just resentment ‘cause you left your CCIE dreams in the dust….

Bl8ckr0uter

RobertKaucher wrote: »

The next thing you know you are grumpy old DBA somewhere who is constantly hounding the network team because of the latency on your wires but really its just resentment ‘cause you left your CCIE dreams in the dust….

I know this can't be your story, you seem to love SQL . I see what you are saying though and it truly does make sense. I also see what the price of a MCSE being a factor. I mean I could probably knock out 290, 291, and 680 by the end of the year (along with security+ and stuff) and that would allow me to focus on LPIC-1/2 and C|EH.

phoeneous

RobertKaucher wrote: »

The next thing you know you are grumpy old DBA somewhere who is constantly hounding the network team because of the latency on your wires but really its just resentment ‘cause you left your CCIE dreams in the dust….

I haven't given up on 70-431 yet. I do sql almost everyday so it's beneficial to me. Example, I don't know a thing about maintenance plans and I just discovered one of ours hasnt ran in a while.

To quote Turgon, "In my experience four areas hurt you..core network, AD, databases and email." Regardless of the platform, I want to be able to manage those four areas. I prefer to stick with smaller environments where only one IT guy is needed. Given my many hats, not focusing or specializing works well for me. Not a huge fan of the enterprise scene, too much bs and politics. Just let me work.

Knw, like I said before, you just need to focus. Don't let the certs manage you, you need to manage what you know.

shon541

knwminus wrote: »

I just had an epiphany. It is foolish and prideful for me to say “I am not going to support MS or cut my teeth the same ways others have had to.” That’s a haughty mentality and it ends today. MCSX and LPIC-X here I come….at a good pace lol. AFTER I take the security+ next week.



See you guys later.

That right. Give yourself to the dark side.

Bl8ckr0uter

phoeneous wrote: »

Knw, like I said before, you just need to focus. Don't let the certs manage you, you need to manage what you know.

Care to explain?