(JR) Network Security Admin

Bl8ckr0uter

As some of you know I work for a small business as a (JR) Network Security Admin. Although I was never told I would be anyone's JR that is the way I am treated by the users, the other admin and my boss. My opinion isn't held in that high of a regard and despite meetings we have had about seperation of duties it seems that it really doesn't matter (at least to the other admin). Take this weekend. I was suppose to install and configure groupshield av on our mail server. Well after I installed it, I noticed some things in epo. Turns out he had went behind my back and configured the epo settings and then tells me he "already got it". This was suppose to be my project but he just "did it". This isn't the first time he has done things like that either.

I have talked to my manager but honestly it doesn't do any good. I am feeling like **** again. There are so many times when stuff like this has come up and I tell my boss and she then says she will "deal with it". Of course the other guy has years and years experience and has done "everything". It makes it very hard to learn when he runs all over everything that I try to do. I have been here for 4 months and I already have thought about leaving. The general environment is ok but interaction in IT is a pain. I don't know what to do. What do you guys think?

My issue isn't being entry level. My issue is that I'd your are a senior admin your job is to mentor Jr admin not railroad them.

Synthros

Is the other admin approachable at all? If so, you might go talk to him directly and let him know (in a nice way, of course) that you want to learn the ins and outs of the environment, and it kind of kills things when he goes around and does things that are assigned to you.

Bl8ckr0uter

Synthros wrote: »

Is the other admin approachable at all? If so, you might go talk to him directly and let him know (in a nice way, of course) that you want to learn the ins and outs of the environment, and it kind of kills things when he goes around and does things that are assigned to you.

define approachable? I mean I can talk to him but he will/does not listen.

Synthros

Have you tried going to him directly when he does these things, or do you only go to your manager? I ask only because some managers will just tell you that they'll do something about the problem, but they won't actually *do* anything about it. If the other admin himself can be made to understand where you're coming from, maybe something can be done to change the situation.

Bl8ckr0uter

I have been going through my manager since she and the other admin have worked together for about 10 years. I probably do need to go to him directly though. Since he was been working there for 2 1/2 years though, anything I say is likely to get brushed by the wayside.

With the economy the way it is and my crazy resume I don't really want to leave. There are several entry level information security analyst positions that recently opened up at a large bank close to me. I know they are entry level but I talked with a recruiter there before. They seem to be about employee development. IDK though..

earweed

Directly probably is the best approach as synthros said.
A big part of that is it may breed some hard feelings if the manager comes to him about this stuff when you haven't approached him directly. He may not like it if you go over his head about every little thing.

Synthros

Yeah, that can make things hard since they have that type of long-term working relationship. Hopefully, that doesn't make it so that they turn a deaf ear to your concerns -- I know some IT departments like that just shrug everything off, saying "that's just the way it is" because they've done things a certain way for so long (be it good or bad).

If you are able to sit down with the other guy and let him know that not only are you willing to do xyz, but that it will be advantageous to him in the long run because he'll be able to pass those tasks off to you and he can concentrate on other things that are more focused on his skill level, then everyone would win.

Bl8ckr0uter

earweed wrote: »

Directly probably is the best approach as synthros said.
A big part of that is it may breed some hard feelings if the manager comes to him about this stuff when you haven't approached him directly. He may not like it if you go over his head about every little thing.

You are probably right but this guys personality is such that I think that it would need to come from someone whose opinion he values as much as his own (aka not me).

He was part of the reason why I slipped into a "F certs" mindset for a little while. He basically said he doesn't respect any certs and they are useless and he thinks they are a waste of time and money. My manager apparently has a similar mindset. But that is another story.

Like I said I am happy to have the job but I am angry that there is a big difference between what I was told I would do and what I am doing.

erpadmin

I went through that at my current job. I am technically "equal" to my counterpart, but in reality, he was the technical lead. This was almost 5 years ago. What I found "cute" about that situation is we would talk about handling certain things, I would disagree and state why, and he'd run like a little ***** to our boss and get his way. I stressed to both of them together so that there was no misunderstanding that I didn't particularly care for how that was handled. I also stressed that in future projects, since I have the same number of years of experience (and I've proven it) I should be a "technical lead" in future projects. What I found out was this guy likes to be the "alpha male." My predecessor had issues with him and left for the same reasons you are considering, but he was a relatively younger guy and he had been there for 4 years before he made his leap. I'm passed my 4 year mark now, but since I'm an alpha male too, I have no problems asserting myself when it's needed/warranted as well as staying put until I can get a position where I can really showcase my alpha maleness.

Bullies, just like in grade school, will back down when you show backbone. There has never been anything physical or anything like that, but my voice literally carries weight...and that's when I'm not trying to be loud. LOL.

One thing you're going to learn, is that every shop you will ever work at will have *****es that you will have to deal with. It's just something you have to accept as an adult. As long as you assert yourself in a proper and professional manner (in other words, say you are not going to take any more ****, but without actually saying it and being unprofessional about it), you will be taken more seriously and your projects really will be your own. Otherwise, if you allow yourself to be treated like a doormat, you will be that doormat. But you have to balance your anger with professionalism. (You can't threaten to f' him up or anything....lmao.)

earweed

True about the certs probably not being a big concern there. They are more concerned with getting the work done. Don't let it affect your own path that you have set for yourself though.
At work just be about the work and then after work be about what you can do to improve yourself be it just studying something related to what you're doing at work or another cert.

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

(You can't get threaten to f' him up or anything....lmao.)

That would be so much easier. God senseless violence for the win!

At any rate, I do understand that as an adult I have to deal with dicks but it seems like just yesterday that I was dealing with dicks with my fist/knee/elbow/baseball bat (all true stories). I also talked stuff out too so I didn't have to fight too much. But idk I don't want to turn tail so I am going to have to do something.

erpadmin

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

That would be so much easier. God senseless violence for the win!

At any rate, I do understand that as an adult I have to deal with dicks but it seems like just yesterday that I was dealing with dicks with my fist/knee/elbow/baseball bat (all true stories). I also talked stuff out too so I didn't have to fight too much. But idk I don't want to turn tail so I am going to have to do something.

There were lots of fights in my youth too.....also in college, but that was always because some guy was being a drunken idiot. But in the professional world, you need to learn and pick up "tact"....otherwise, you will never grow professionally. It was most certainly easy to *****-slap the guys we're talking about and call it a day. But you can't do what you did in grade/high school/(sometimes college) in the real world. Street brawls just aren't acceptable in the real world. LOL. (Though sometimes I do wish they were....but I unfortunately know better. )

remyforbes777

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

That would be so much easier. God senseless violence for the win!

At any rate, I do understand that as an adult I have to deal with dicks but it seems like just yesterday that I was dealing with dicks with my fist/knee/elbow/baseball bat (all true stories). I also talked stuff out too so I didn't have to fight too much. But idk I don't want to turn tail so I am going to have to do something.

I feel getting angry about the situation limits your thinking about the logical way to handle it. These things happen. It's pretty simple if you ask me. When he does it again simply ask, can you show me how you did it cause you would like to know. If he refuses to show you then you know definitely there is a problem. I deal with the same stuff at work. My CTO does things on his own simply because he isn't used to having to work with someone else since it was only him as the technical lead for a long time. I just simply ask him to show me what he did. Biggest reason is so that one person doesn't have all the keys to the kingdom. If he refuses to show you then that's the perspective you need to have your boss look at. What would happen to the network, to business continuance, if something happened to him and I was the only person left? Once a boss begins thinking about money lost that's when they begin to take action. Going behind his back and ratting to the boss is not a good way to build team chemistry.

Bl8ckr0uter

Thanks guys for helping me keep perspective.

RobertKaucher

Is SW Ohio taking over TE? We should have a TE boys night out.

My suggestion is that you deal with this to the best of your ability and stick with this job for a bit. I think your title alone is an excellent compensation for working with a DB. Just remember you won't be there forever. Get some experience, whatever you can, and keep an eye for a better spot.

Bl8ckr0uter

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Is SW Ohio taking over TE? We should have a TE boys night out.

We should!

RobertKaucher wrote: »

My suggestion is that you deal with this to the best of your ability and stick with this job for a bit. I think your title alone is an excellent compensation for working with a DB. Just remember you won't be there forever. Get some experience, whatever you can, and keep an eye for a better spot.

I know the title looks excellent on my resume but I also want the experience and knowledge to back my title up. You are a DBA/Developer. Everyday you get experience that helps you become a better DBA/Developer. When someone sees DBA on your resumes and then calls you on it, you have no problem backing it up because you have experience and knowledge in doing DBA/Development related work. If someone sees Network (and) Security Admin on my resume, I cannot say that I am getting experience that would help me build my knowledge of my craft. In a sense I feel like a sham. That job that you sent me a while back looks awesome but I can honestly say I would not be qualified for the job even though someone who would see my title might think I would be able to do it. Which isn't to say that I could learn but the experience I am getting is not helping me become a better admin or learn more about security.

tpatt100

If you have not been there that long I would probably just find a way to roll with it. Learn what you can find ways to get some more resume bullet points. When your ready to leave then leave.

Bl8ckr0uter

tpatt100 wrote: »

If you have not been there that long I would probably just find a way to roll with it. Learn what you can find ways to get some more resume bullet points. When your ready to leave then leave.

Guess I don't have much of a choice. I want to finish my A.A.S before I move anywhere and I have 3 more quarters for that. Maybe I can get something to change in the next 9 months.

TheShadow

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

***bump***

Really? So you want more huh. Having been in the field since the seventies, the professional rule of tact and personal sanity at any level, beginner, M.P. or V.P. is...

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

There are no other reasonable options unless you are a Mafia Capo. The choice is always yours; choose well my young friend.

erpadmin

TheShadow wrote: »

Really? So you want more huh. Having been in the field since the seventies, the professional rule of tact and personal sanity at any level, beginner, M.P. or V.P. is...

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

There are no other reasonable options unless you are a Mafia Capo. The choice is always yours; choose well my young friend.

Honestly, I actually get this. He doesn't want to deal with the bull that comes with dealing with this guy. He would rather just bounce. I emphatize with that a lot, as I went through similar nonsense when I was his age and would have rathered done the first impulse that came to me. Bl8ck just needs to figure out how to better assert himself without himself appearing weak. Once he figures that out, he can tough out the rest of his tenure so that he can properly move on to the next gig.

But this is a challenge that most of us have went through in our careers. How he handles this one (and various others that will be thrown his way) will really determine how our young friend grows as a professional.

TheShadow

There is always a fourth, as practiced by the under bosses which is war. Unless you are well versed in the ways of corporate politics this is the path to disaster. Well rounded reading of the classics helps but few do this anymore.

This is where you pick up Larry Ellison's favorite statement, “It is not sufficient that I succeed - all others must fail.”; but many aren't sure where it came from. Genghis khan. Loosely translated to modern times, "There can be only one" Steve Balmer's rule of corporate war. While his dance is interesting I can't see him with a sword in a sweaty shirt.

The Art of War by Sun-tsu is another classic or the writings of Machiavelli and many others. A crash course in corporate politics and war can be found in Robert Greens the 48 laws of power which has been around for over 10 years and read by many.

Some picks for this situation...

LAW 1 NEVER OUTSHINE THE MASTER
Always make those above you feel comfortably superior. In your desire to please or impress them, do not go too far in displaying your talents or you might accomplish the opposite i.e.inspire fear and insecurity. Make your masters appear more brilliant than they are and you will attain the heights of power.

LAW 3 CONCEAL YOUR INTENTIONS
Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions. If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense. Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelop them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late.

LAW 4 ALWAYS SAY LESS THAN NECESSARY
When you are trying to impress people with words, the more you say, the more common you appear, and the less in control. Even if you are saying something banal, it will seem original if you make it vague, open-ended, and sphinx like. Powerful people impress and intimidate by saying less. The more you say, the more likely you are to say something foolish.

LAW 7 GET OTHERS TO DO THE WORK FOR YOU, BUT ALWAYS TAKE THE CREDIT
Use the wisdom, knowledge, and legwork of other people to further your own cause. Not only will such assistance save you valuable time and energy, it will give you a godlike aura of efficiency and speed. In the end your helpers will be forgotten and you will be remembered. Never do yourself what others can do for you.

If the main manager gave him the assignment and it got done then who received the credit.

LAW 9 WIN THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS, NEVER THROUGH ARGUMENT
Any momentary triumph you think you have gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory: The resentment and ill will you stir up is stronger and lasts longer than any momentary change of opinion. It is much more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions, without saying a word. Demonstrate, do not explicate.

I leave it to the readers to decide whom is using these laws to their advantage

RobertKaucher

TheShadow wrote: »

LAW 1 NEVER OUTSHINE THE MASTER
Always make those above you feel comfortably superior. In your desire to please or impress them, do not go too far in displaying your talents or you might accomplish the opposite i.e.inspire fear and insecurity. Make your masters appear more brilliant than they are and you will attain the heights of power.

LAW 3 CONCEAL YOUR INTENTIONS
Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions. If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense. Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelop them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late.

I agree with this first law 100%. Phrases that I use with my bosses regularly:

"I'm here to make your job easier."
"This is why you hired me, to make you and the department look good."
One of the first things I try to do is find out what sort of metrics my boss is graded on so that I can adjust my efforts to align with those. If my boss is getting praise and recognition and he sees it is partially coming from my efforts then I will benifit from this in the long run.

I believe the 3rd law is only a rule and should only be used when applicable.

Bl8ckr0uter

TheShadow wrote: »

The Art of War by Sun-tsu is another classic or the writings of Machiavelli and many others. A crash course in corporate politics and war can be found in Robert Greens the 48 laws of power which has been around for over 10 years and read by many.

I'll have to read these books some point soon. Thanks for the input.



I should note that I have no problem with being a student, I just need a teacher. Not someone who will just railroad me. But I do see your point.

erpadmin

FYI, Machiavelli's The Prince and Sun Tzu's Art of War is FREE as a digital download via amazon.com (they're both in the public domain!) if you use Kindle for PC (or of course have a Kindle device). Both of those are part of my permanent collection and it's just great required life reading. If you can master the concepts from both of those classics, you will be able to handle any crap "office politics" throws at you.

They're not just used for those above you, but also for that guy who will come after you as a subordinate and will try to take your job instead of concentrating on the job he was originally hired to do. You will have a sweet plan at how to shut down those guys as well, and will have him thanking you for the pleasure of doing so (when done right).

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

FYI, Machiavelli's The Prince and Sun Tzu's Art of War is FREE as a digital download via amazon.com (they're both in the public domain!) if you use Kindle for PC (or of course have a Kindle device). Both of those are part of my permanent collection and it's just great required life reading. If you can master the concepts from both of those classics, you will be able to handle any crap "office politics" throws at you.

They're not just used for those above you, but also for that guy who will come after you as a subordinate and will try to take your job instead of concentrating on the job he was originally hired to do. You will have a sweet plan at how to shut down those guys as well, and will have him thanking you for the pleasure of doing so (when done right).

No kindle here. I don't get the E reader or tablet pc movement. But yea I will pick both of those up asap. I have heard of the art of war but I have never heard of the prince.

erpadmin

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I have heard of the art of war but I have never heard of the prince.

I don't blame you...I blame the Ohio public school system (or if you went to Catholic school, then the parochial school system there). The Prince was required reading my sophomore year of HS.

And not because you're a "bl8ckr0uter", (I would mention this if you were a Wh1T3r0uT3R) but if you ever heard of Makaveli's 7 day theory (Tupac's album when he died), The Prince was what it was based out of and the subsequent theories of how Tupac Shakur was still alive, etc., etc.

ssampier

I can't help you on the conflicts with this person.

However, logically, shouldn't this person have his own responsibilities rather than doing your job?

Perhaps the person honestly doesn't have enough to do and needs some credit to keep his job. In a worst case scenario you'd probably be let go since you are the "troublemaker".

Step carefully my friend; have a "plan B" in place.

RobertKaucher

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I should note that I have no problem with being a student, I just need a teacher. Not someone who will just railroad me. But I do see your point.

It seems like he just doesn't trust you and there may be several reasons for that. He might think that you were hired to replace him, he might think that you might be trying to show him up, he could be threatened by your youth, untrusting due to what he sees as your inexperience, or any number of things. If you are not just going to skip out on this job then you need to try to understand his motivation and try to counter ballance it.

earweed

RobertKaucher wrote: »

It seems like he just doesn't trust you and there may be several reasons for that. He might think that you were hired to replace him, he might think that you might be trying to show him up, he could be threatened by your youth, untrusting due to what he sees as your inexperience, or any number of things. If you are not just going to skip out on this job then you need to try to understand his motivation and try to counter ballance it.

+1 Here. A lot may be that he perceives your youth and enthusiasm as that you may possibly take his job and push him out. You may have sights of going all the way to the top but he may enjoy right where he's at and have no ambition at this time to move up so he may be worried about being moved out.

erpadmin

earweed wrote: »

+1 Here. A lot may be that he perceives your youth and enthusiasm as that you may possibly take his job and push him out. You may have sights of going all the way to the top but he may enjoy right where he's at and have no ambition at this time to move up so he may be worried about being moved out.

That's actually my colleague.....described to the tee. He definitely has insecurity issues.

These type of guys tend to back down real quick (like he has) when backbone is shown.

Bl8ckr0uter

earweed wrote: »

+1 Here. A lot may be that he perceives your youth and enthusiasm as that you may possibly take his job and push him out. You may have sights of going all the way to the top but he may enjoy right where he's at and have no ambition at this time to move up so he may be worried about being moved out.

I can see your point but TBH I know that he will out last me at this job. I will probably move on way before he does lol. It isn't that I don't like the company but I just want more money than they will be able to pay me so I will have to move eventually which is why I want to learn everything that I can here.