windows server 2008 R2 first impressions from a linux user

ehnde

I start a new class at my community college next week learning about windows Server 2008. I installed it today on an extra pc to check it out (R2). As a long time linux user I felt very uncomfortable with this "server" operating system.

It felt like it was made to be secure, but from the point of the view that the server administrator must be an idiot. I'll be specific about my complaints, and hopefully a more educated person could clarify these issues...maybe I'm jumping to conclusions.

#1 Operating system updates were installed and the system tray popped up a message that the computer would be rebooted in 10 minutes. What if this was a production server? I know microsoft releases updates on the 12th of every month. Would a windows server reboot itself once a month?

#2 After updates were installed, I watched the computer configure updates (before the logon screen), then reboot instead of going to the logon screen. I watched it do this 3 times. I then took my backtrack CD out of the CD drive, and it finally quit doing that. I noticed it saying something about hyper-V and I'm wondering if there was some kind of conflict there.

#3 I have a high end ATI Radeon and was unable to get any driver to work beyond the standard VGA driver. It was really tough to look at the screen with such a low resolution. Further googling revealed no useful information, except that by installing 3rd party graphics driver I could be causing hyper-V to either not work, or perform poorly.

Please forgive my ignorance, like I said I'm new to the microsoft world....but I'm going to have to stick to Debian Lenny for now and run Server 2008 R2 in a VM.

RobertKaucher

One thing to keep in mind is that the server OS is not intended to run with a high end graphics card, but a Windows 7 driver may work with it. And if you are running Hyper-V the Server OS is really running as a special type of virtual machine. The Hypervisor is really what is running on the bare metal. So don't expect hardware designed for a standard PC to just work.

Updates in a production environment would be controlled by an admin via policies, no machine would be allowed to behave like a standard desktop in a real environment. That might be the default, but you are the large-brained Homo Sapien with aposable thumbs who knows better than the machine when and how updates need to be installed.

Just keep in mind that a Windows server, nor a Linux server nor any server for that matter, is going to just be installed and then set loose into the network. It needs to be properly updated, configured, secured, and tested.

One bit of advice, though. If you really want to get to know the Windows Server OS, don't go back to Linux. Force yourself to stick with it and figure it out. And take the attitude that if something isn't working like you think it should, as a noob to Win Server, the fault is probably yours. I know that is really hard for someone who is used to being the master of his OS! But this is a pretty big switch. And I'm certain if you throw that thing on a VM you will progress much more slowly as you will just go back to what you know well and is easy to you.

EDIT: As a PS, some of use are getting together on the 30th in Cincinnati, OH. I know you are a bit far but you would be welcome to come if you want!

hypnotoad

The server doesn't reboot in 10 minutes. It says that it will bug you to reboot in 10 minutes.

ok so you think the updates are crappy. well they are, but dude, who cares? i mean once the server is going, who cares if you do updates and stare at a screen for 5 minutes??

ATI sucks in most server 2008 and windows 7 systems. just sayin i havent had good experience. PS when is linux going to reliably support my dual monitors? oh yeah, never...because they've been working on hardware compatibility for like 12 years (since i originally got in to linux).

ehnde

Sometimes a guy needs to rant, and so I did Now that I've calmed down a bit I think I'd be happy if I could just get a native resolution. With the plain jane vga driver the desktop isn't even scaled to the proper size (black edges around the screen even after adjusting the resolution).

After this 8 week 70-646 class is over I'll probably be less of an idiot on windows server.

EDIT: As a PS, some of use are getting together on the 30th in Cincinnati, OH. I know you are a bit far but you would be welcome to come if you want!

I'd love to if my wife wasn't expecting, she's due any day now.

MentholMoose

ehnde wrote: »

#1 Operating system updates were installed and the system tray popped up a message that the computer would be rebooted in 10 minutes. What if this was a production server? I know microsoft releases updates on the 12th of every month. Would a windows server reboot itself once a month?

As Robert mentioned, it is your responsibility to configure Automatic Updates based on the requirements of your environment. However in the real world, you normally do the configuration with Group Policy Objects in Active Directory, not on individual servers. GPOs can be applied to an arbitrary number of servers, so basically you create the policies once, get them working how you want, and you don't have to do much (if any) configuration when you build a new server because it gets the policies from AD.

hypnotoad wrote: »

PS when is linux going to reliably support my dual monitors? oh yeah, never...because they've been working on hardware compatibility for like 12 years (since i originally got in to linux).

Have you tried it recently? Auto-detection in Xorg has been really good for years, so having to do any video configuration at all is rare. It's really, really slick. You literally can swap video cards without ANY configuration... I've swapped ATI for NVIDIA cards on desktops without any configuration, whereas on Windows I'd probably have to reformat.

I haven't had problems running dual monitors with Linux for years, on many machines with a variety of video cards (ATI, NVIDIA, Intel). I even have it working on my current laptop, which is the worst case scenario for Linux hardware compatibility.

ehnde wrote: »

Now that I've calmed down a bit I think I'd be happy if I could just get a native resolution. With the plain jane vga driver the desktop isn't even scaled to the proper size (black edges around the screen even after adjusting the resolution).

If you want to use it as a desktop, install the Desktop Experience feature (Server Manager, Features node, Add Features). This gives you some usability functionality. However I don't know why you are having problems with the video card. I have a fairly recent ATI card (HD 4350) in my test 2008 R2 machine with Hyper-V and it is working fine. Are you using the x64 drivers? FWIW I'm using the 9-11 drivers.

Sabalo

MentholMoose wrote: »

Have you tried it recently? Auto-detection in Xorg has been really good for years, so having to do any video configuration at all is rare. It's really, really slick. You literally can swap video cards without ANY configuration... I've swapped ATI for NVIDIA cards on desktops without any configuration, whereas on Windows I'd probably have to reformat.

I've never had to reformat a machine because I changed video card vendors, and video cards in the desert die faster than fruit flies in a microwave.

Well, maybe not that fast.

But I'll admit that the process is not always seamless.

tpatt100

I used to have issues swapping video cards from different vendors due to drivers leaving junk behind. Dual monitors in Linux? At my last job being a Linux noob I was able to get dual monitors, overhead projector, and one of those white board wall things where you can draw on the screen and save it. All with hardly knowing much about Red Hat

MentholMoose

Sabalo wrote: »

I've never had to reformat a machine because I changed video card vendors, and video cards in the desert die faster than fruit flies in a microwave.

Well, maybe not that fast.

But I'll admit that the process is not always seamless.

I was partially exaggerating. However even though a reformat usually isn't mandatory I would do it anyway in many cases. The fact that there are 3rd party driver "cleaning" utilities really shows how much of a mess video drivers can cause on Windows. Anyway, I'm not trying to hate on Windows, I have Windows desktops and prefer them for certain things. I'm just saying it's not perfect. Hopefully that is not grounds for a flame war.

earweed

I had thought this thread was going to turn into a flame war as a lot of the Windows vs Linux threads usually do. So far I've been glad to see this one has stayed pretty civil.

Sabalo

MentholMoose wrote: »

I was partially exaggerating. However even though a reformat usually isn't mandatory I would do it anyway in many cases. The fact that there are 3rd party driver "cleaning" utilities really shows how much of a mess video drivers can cause on Windows. Anyway, I'm not trying to hate on Windows, I have Windows desktops and prefer them for certain things. I'm just saying it's not perfect. Hopefully that is not grounds for a flame war.

Nope, not at all! I hate on Windows all of the time... and Linux, and Mac, and just about every other platform I have to use. One of my biggest recent peeves was the inability to copy my domain profile to a local profile on my Windows 7 machine without a workaround.

I plan on getting into Linux at some point, if only to have the basic experience in managing it. I have some skill using it already.

I will have to get the VMware Workstation install for it tho. I need some of my PC apps.

RobertKaucher

earweed wrote: »

I had thought this thread was going to turn into a flame war as a lot of the Windows vs Linux threads usually do. So far I've been glad to see this one has stayed pretty civil.

It's because here most of the people seems to use both and love them both - or hate them both (as in Sabalo's case).

tpatt100

I prefer my iPad as an OS lol

ehnde

I've been giving Server 2008 R2 more of an effort, and it's going a little better. But I just can't seem to get a native resolution on my monitor and it's driving me NUTS! (1920x1080)

I tried replacing my ATI Radeon HD 4850 with an ATI x1300, and neither card wants to cooperate.

Thanks for the suggestion about trying Desktop Experience, but unfortunately it didn't work for me

Now I'm wondering what card WILL provide 1920x1080 in Windows Server 2008 R2. I'm just about willing to trade my $180 high end gaming card for something cheaper that not only will cooperate with my monitor, but will also work ok with Hyper-V (even if said card were only worth $30).

I've decided to dual boot for awhile with Server 2008 R2 and linux, and incidentally you cannot include the ati proprietary fglrx driver with a xen modified kernel....or at least I haven't found a way to do it that actually works.

earweed

I think one of the reasons you cant get a driver for R2 to go with your graphics card is that Hyper-v doesn't get along well with high end graphics cards. There was a thread in here somewhere that had a link explaining it but I can't find it.

ehnde

earweed wrote: »

I think one of the reasons you cant get a driver for R2 to go with your graphics card is that Hyper-v doesn't get along well with high end graphics cards. There was a thread in here somewhere that had a link explaining it but I can't find it.

Yes, and I really can't point an accusing finger at Microsoft for this. ESXi has picky hardware requirements and Xen can't keep up with the linux kernel releases, and also has serious issues with certain drivers. I'm going to stick to using a paravirtualized environment with CPU VT support. My guess is that we will see leaps and bounds in improvements in virtualization hardware support from the 3 main contendors (Xen, Vmware, Microsoft) over the next few years. Just imagine if a vendor supported Nvidia CUDA or ATI Stream!!

In the mean time it seems like the best solution for anyone that must have a virtualized platform, it would be necessary to start with a hardware compatibility list and buy hardware that is known to work with whatever vendor you choose.

earweed

Here's the article
Understanding High-End Video Performance Issues with Hyper-V - Virtual PC Guy's WebLog - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

MentholMoose

Did you try using an older driver? Like I mentioned I have a HD 4350 and it works fine with the 9-11 drivers. Is the driver you installed even being used? Check in the Device Manager (it's in Server Manager, Diagnostics node) to make sure (in the Driver tab for the video card, check the provider and date).

If the correct driver is enabled, it might be that the monitor is not detected properly. Windows tries to determine the supported resolutions of your monitor and "hides" the ones that it thinks aren't supported. For example, my Hyper-V test machine has the generic monitor driver and only shows up to 1600x1200 for the connected monitor (an old school 22" CRT, supports way more than that).

Check the website of your monitor manufacturer for a driver and install it, then check if you can choose the resolution you need. Also, you can force any resolution the video card supports. Right click the desktop and choose Screen resolution, click Advanced settings, then List all modes. Select the resolution you want in the list and apply it. If you choose the wrong one and the screen goes blank, don't touch anything for 20 seconds and it will revert to the previous setting.

Qord

ehnde wrote: »

It felt like it was made to be secure, but from the point of the view that the server administrator must be an idiot. I'll be specific about my complaints, and hopefully a more educated person could clarify these issues...maybe I'm jumping to conclusions.

I'm gonna say half-correct. It's made to be as easy as possible. If you want a challenge, get Server Core.

ehnde wrote: »

#1 Operating system updates were installed and the system tray popped up a message that the computer would be rebooted in 10 minutes. What if this was a production server? I know microsoft releases updates on the 12th of every month. Would a windows server reboot itself once a month?

To add to what's already been said, in production your server would not have automatic updates turned on. To give you an example, here's what we do:
All servers are manually updated on Saturday or Sunday mornings, depending on office hours. We alternate weeks, doing half this week, the rest next week. Prior to any update being put into production, it is used in a test domain and network for about a full week to make sure there are no problems with it, no conflicts with anything else, and that it is actually beneficial to us.

ehnde wrote: »

#2 After updates were installed, I watched the computer configure updates (before the logon screen), then reboot instead of going to the logon screen. I watched it do this 3 times. I then took my backtrack CD out of the CD drive, and it finally quit doing that. I noticed it saying something about hyper-V and I'm wondering if there was some kind of conflict there.

In the real world, you would get a much more recent version of Server than what came with your book. Even so, Server like to "configure updates" every time there has been a major update. I wouldn't bother with hyper-v much if I were you. It's not much different from any other VM. The important part is learning the Server OS itself. Once you've got that down, then start working on your virtual cluster.

ehnde wrote: »

Please forgive my ignorance, like I said I'm new to the microsoft world....but I'm going to have to stick to Debian Lenny for now and run Server 2008 R2 in a VM.

That works fine too man. As long as you get the OS up and running so you can see what it's all about. In fact, that's probably the best way to get started, with it running in a VM. So much easier to research, troubleshoot, and fix that way.

Just my opinions here.

earweed

I'm just glad to see you're wanting to expand your knowledge into the MS realm as it will ultimately make you more employable.It is probably best if you do keep Server 2008 R2 in VMs as that is the best way to first experience it and get used to it. You wont need it on an actual machine unless you decide to lab Hyper-v, which I recommend you eventually do.

it_consultant

Besides that annoying driver problem, Server 2008 R2 is the best server MS has ever made. It tries to lure *nix admins away with Powershell, however anyone who has used 2K and 2K3 notice immediate improvements.

What I am interested in is what can you do in linux that you can't do in Windows, or you can its just too damned complicated. My impression of linux is that things like VI make it totally unappealing to Windows admins. I understand needing to edit text and config files, in Windows we've had a tool for a decade or more called notepad.

MentholMoose

it_consultant wrote: »

Besides that annoying driver problem, Server 2008 R2 is the best server MS has ever made. It tries to lure *nix admins away with Powershell, however anyone who has used 2K and 2K3 notice immediate improvements.

What I am interested in is what can you do in linux that you can't do in Windows, or you can its just too damned complicated. My impression of linux is that things like VI make it totally unappealing to Windows admins. I understand needing to edit text and config files, in Windows we've had a tool for a decade or more called notepad.

If you like notepad on Windows then use nano on Linux. It should be installed by default with every Linux distribution released in the last 10 years. If it's not there by default then it should be in the package repository. If it's not even in the repos, consider using another distribution because it should be.

Also if you want a GUI editor and have a window manager installed, there are many programs similar to notepad such as gedit (included with Gnome) or kedit (KDE).