Is a person without a HS degree hirable in IT if they have a certification?

Devilsbane

Are High School Dropouts Good IT Job Candidates? - InsideTech.com
Article says yes, surprisingly.

networker050184

Worked for me.

Panzer919

Devilsbane wrote: »

Are High School Dropouts Good IT Job Candidates? - InsideTech.com
Article says yes, surprisingly.

If a student can sell themselves and their knowledge, I don't see why they wouldn't have a fair shot at a position. From an employers standpoint, they may prefer this because the student may be more easily molded to fit the company than someone who has experience that comes in and tries to overhaul things to what they perceive as correct.

Plus some people get bored with high school because its too easy. I always seen it as quite bothersome to have to get up early to go sit and do relatively nothing. I could (and did) sleep through most classes and still passed.

eMeS

So let me get this straight. The healthcare industry needs to fill 45k-75k IT jobs, and an SVP at CompTIA thinks that people who couldn't be troubled to complete high school are competent and trustworthy enough to handle sensitive patient information?

I call BS...I work with several customers in that industry and I don't know any of them that would even consider a high school dropout for an IT job. Those resumes would never make it past HR. In fact, I'm with one of my healthcare customers this week and I look around at many of the people doing middle to technician level IT jobs and see that a high percentage have graduate degrees. (How do I know? It's common in hospitals for people's educational credentials to appear on their work id's).

When I see stuff like this it always surprises me both how self-serving and out of touch CompTIA seems at times.

MS

apr911

Panzer919 wrote: »

If a student can sell themselves and their knowledge, I don't see why they wouldn't have a fair shot at a position. From an employers standpoint, they may prefer this because the student may be more easily molded to fit the company than someone who has experience that comes in and tries to overhaul things to what they perceive as correct.

Plus some people get bored with high school because its too easy. I always seen it as quite bothersome to have to get up early to go sit and do relatively nothing. I could (and did) sleep through most classes and still passed.

+1. I was a horrible student, I slept through most of my classes and I routinely skipped or turned in assignments late and still graduated in the top 3rd of my class with a 3 something GPA. Thats before you consider about 1/2 the kids above me had higher GPAs by function of taking geometry (them) vs calculus (me).

As far as hiring a high school drop out? I wasnt asked once about if I graduated HS at my last few jobs. College yes, but even when I said no, there was no follow-up about highschool.

There are also some companies that look for the reasons why someone dropped out. There is one company, the name of which eludes me at the moment, that routinely hired technically adept college dropouts on the theory that they were "outside the box" thinkers and college was too stifling. It worked well for them but I obviously dont know what other criteria they used since obviously not every college dropout is working there or even could work there.

That example is on the college level and not the HS level but I dont see why it cant also hold true to HS. As Panzer said, its all in how well you can sell yourself and your skills. In my current job I wasnt even asked about my education (college or HS) because my experience and skills made it a moot point for the position I was applying.

Before you read too deeply into that article though, consider the quoted source. Terry Erdle is a senior VP at CompTIA, one of the larger IT Certification agencies out there. Its in his best interest to sell certifications so its not like he's going to come out and say "well certs alone arent enough." Erdle manages to sum up his bias quite nicely by responding "absolutely they’re a good candidate if they’ve gotten through [CompTIA’s] A+ certification" when being asked if he would recommend someone to an IT hiring manager who holds no HS diploma but has a certification.

networker050184

eMeS wrote: »

So let me get this straight. The healthcare industry needs to fill 45k-75k IT jobs, and an SVP at CompTIA thinks that people who couldn't be troubled to complete high school are competent and trustworthy enough to handle sensitive patient information?

I call BS...I do work with several customers in that industry and I don't know any of them that would even consider a high school dropout for an IT job. In fact, I'm with one of my healthcare customers this week and I look around at many of the people doing middle to technician level IT jobs and see that a high percentage have graduate degrees. (How do I know? It's common in hospitals for people's educational credentials to appear on their work id's).

When I see stuff like this it always surprises me both how self-serving and out of touch CompTIA seems at times.

MS

So just because a person doesn't finish HS they can't be trusted? That is the biggest pile of BS I've ever heard. I actually valued your opinion highly until this thread.

Panzer919

I think just because someone drops out of HS does not mean they are untrustworthy. This is a touchy and situational topic. Every case is different and every company is different. I don't see many healthcare companies trying this but they also have HIPPA to answer to, so they HAVE to make sure someone is on the up and up before they hire someone. I could see consulting companies or individual companies hiring them. I now work for a large law firm and I was NEVER asked about my HS education or my College degree. I got this job based on my Skill, Drive, Knowledge and Experience. Just because someone doesn't finish HS doesn't mean crap if they are applying themselves correctly.

networker050184

Panzer919 wrote: »

I think just because someone drops out of HS does not mean they are untrustworthy. This is a touchy and situational topic. Every case is different and every company is different. I don't see many healthcare companies trying this but they also have HIPPA to answer to, so they HAVE to make sure someone is on the up and up before they hire someone. I could see consulting companies or individual companies hiring them. I now work for a large law firm and I was NEVER asked about my HS education or my College degree. I got this job based on my Skill, Drive, Knowledge and Experience. Just because someone doesn't finish HS doesn't mean crap if they are applying themselves correctly.

Exactly, every situation is different. I have also never been asked if I have completed HS. I've only been asked about college once and it was just in passing AFTER they had already made the offer.

I'm not encouraging anyone to not finish HS or to not get a degree, but to say companies won't hire you is BS.

eMeS

networker050184 wrote: »

So just because a person doesn't finish HS they can't be trusted? That is the biggest pile of BS I've ever heard. I actually valued your opinion highly until this thread.

And because they have CompTIA certs they suddenly can be trusted? That's a much bigger pile of BS by any measure. That's the BS in this article.

But you might have missed my point. It's irrelevant what any of us think about this. The fact of the matter is that many employers will not consider someone without a high school diploma. This is because someone who hasn't completed high school is much riskier than someone who has. Try to get someone bonded who hasn't graduated high school.

Regardless of your personal experience or opinion on this matter, I don't think I'm really out on too much of a limb here.

And I still value your opinion, regardless of whether I agree with it.

MS

networker050184

eMeS wrote: »

And because they have CompTIA certs they suddenly can be trusted? That's a much bigger pile of BS by any measure.

But you might have missed my point. It's irrelevant what any of us think about this. The fact of the matter is that many employers will not consider someone without a high school diploma. This is because someone who hasn't completed high school is much riskier than someone who has. Try to get someone bonded who hasn't graduated high school.

Regardless of your personal experience or opinion on this matter, I don't think I'm really out on too much of a limb here.

MS

No, having a CompTIA cert doesn't make someone trust worthy. Neither does having a degree or finishing HS or any other qualification. I don't think that article said anything about the certification making anyone more or less trustworthy.

I think you basically have an outdated elitist view on the subject. Shouldn't my experience as the type of person we are discussing here be more relevant than your "contacts" in the health care industry?

networker050184

eMeS wrote: »

And I still value your opinion, regardless of whether I agree with it.

MS

I don't value your opinion because its obviously biased judging by your blanket statement of trustworthiness based on education. It has nothing to do with agreement or not. I value the opinion of open minded non biased individuals. Thats what I had you pegged as previously.

eMeS

networker050184 wrote: »

No, having a CompTIA cert doesn't make someone trust worthy. Neither does having a degree or finishing HS or any other qualification. I don't think that article said anything about the certification making anyone more or less trustworthy.

But that is what the article is saying. That CompTIA is offering some credential that makes someone a "good candidate" in the absence of a high school diploma.

networker050184 wrote: »

I think you basically have an outdated elitist view on the subject.

Since when did people who graduated high school become elite? You're out of line with this statement.

networker050184 wrote: »

Shouldn't my experience as the type of person we are discussing here be more relevant than your "contacts" in the health care industry?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I've written job descriptions for IT organizations in the health care industry and I'm very familiar with their hiring practices. They don't look at candidates without a high school diploma and say, "well, does he have an IT certification? Because that makes hiring them ok!"

You know very well that I believe that anyone can do anything that they decide to do...the only thing that really ever hinders people is a lack of persistence, not a lack of ability. However, isn't it fair to say that there are just certain boxes that once checked, make things a bit easier for people? For example graduating high school?

The issue is I think you're arguing from a standpoint of personal experience, whereas I'm discounting what the article says based on professional reality.

MS

Devilsbane

Well to be fair, a job posting isn't everything. The job I'm in right now listed a BS degree under the required heading, but that played no part in me getting this job.

it_consultant

I would find it hard to hire someone that did not have a GED at least. No HS diploma is one thing, who knows what happened to you as a kid. As an adult, the GED has to be a launching point.

eMeS

it_consultant wrote: »

I would find it hard to hire someone that did not have a GED at least. No HS diploma is one thing, who knows what happened to you as a kid. As an adult, the GED has to be a launching point.

In my replies, I consider these to be equivalent....

MS

QHalo

I don't think I've ever been asked if I graduated HS when I applied for any jobs. I don't have my degree just yet (6 months to go baby!) but I certainly don't have my high school on my resume and it's never been an issue. Obviously I've graduated from HS, but I can't recall anyone ever asking me.

eMeS

networker050184 wrote: »

No, having a CompTIA cert doesn't make someone trust worthy. Neither does having a degree or finishing HS or any other qualification.

I don't have time to do a full literature search on this, because my elitist monocle is making my eye itch and my top hat needs to be steamed, but there is significant research that clearly demonstrates that high school graduates are less likely to commit crimes and are more trustworthy than high school dropouts.

Start with Raphael, S. (2004). The socioeconomic status of black males: The increasing importance of incarceration...

There are many many other studies on this.

So yes, I stand by my comment that high school graduates are less likely to commit crimes and are therefore more trustworthy than high school dropouts.

MS

Zartanasaurus

eMeS wrote: »

So let me get this straight. The healthcare industry needs to fill 45k-75k IT jobs, and an SVP at CompTIA thinks that people who couldn't be troubled to complete high school are competent and trustworthy enough to handle sensitive patient information?

I call BS...I work with several customers in that industry and I don't know any of them that would even consider a high school dropout for an IT job. Those resumes would never make it past HR. In fact, I'm with one of my healthcare customers this week and I look around at many of the people doing middle to technician level IT jobs and see that a high percentage have graduate degrees. (How do I know? It's common in hospitals for people's educational credentials to appear on their work id's).

When I see stuff like this it always surprises me both how self-serving and out of touch CompTIA seems at times.

MS

I know you're speaking in generalities here, but not everyone who drops out of HS does so b/c they were lazy or couldn't handle the work. Mrs. Zartan is a HS dropout due to family circumstances. As it turns out, she works for a large county hospital with access to all patient financial and medical records and has been promoted several times. She's currently being asked to move up to a very upper level management position.

eMeS

networker050184 wrote: »

I don't value your opinion because its obviously biased judging by your blanket statement of trustworthiness based on education. It has nothing to do with agreement or not. I value the opinion of open minded non biased individuals. Thats what I had you pegged as previously.

No, my opinion is based on reality and supported by research. You simply don't like it because it hits too close to home.

MS

eMeS

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

I know you're speaking in generalities here, but not everyone who drops out of HS does so b/c they were lazy or couldn't handle the work.

Nor is that what I said. And I agree, there are exceptions to every rule.

Question though, did your wife get her GED?

My sister is a high school dropout who has never gone back to get her GED. She dropped out because she's lazy.

MS

mikej412

The article is a waste of electrons.

Bl8ckr0uter

mikej412 wrote: »

The article is a waste of electrons.

^^^ This ^^^

When I saw this article in my email, I knew somehow it was going to end up a thread here. I also knew that black males were going to get pulled in some kind of way....

Anyhow IMO (and this is coming from a black male, that did graduate HS and is working on an AAS) it depends. Assuming that the person did not get a GED (which has it's own set of stigmas) , it is highly unlikely that someone who didn't make it thought HS is going to be a doctor, lawyer, judge or anything like that (or any job that requires professional degrees to do such as Engineering etc). Also that person is likely to have trouble finding certain types of IT work (such as software development and management). However for a support position, it may come down to a case by case bases. I don't think it would be very easy for the person (certifications or not) since many jobs want BS degrees and higher (mine included). HOWEVER, I (like Devils) am currently working in my position with no degree. Do I think I could have got my job without my HS (just my limited experience and certs) ? Probably not.

What I do think is that a person who is just starting out (without any experience whatsoever) will be forced into very low level positions with very little pay if they find anything at all. The job market is just too tough all around and there are plenty of more qualified folks. I don't think the X+ certification is going to negate that fact: Educational Requirements are one thing, certifications are another. If your IT career is resting on a 3 legged table (education, certification, experience) I don't think someone with a 2 legged table is going to have as stable of a career.


No offense Networker, but I think you are an outliner in that regard. Did you get your GED?

eMeS

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I also knew that black males were going to get pulled in some kind of way....

Yeah, when I posted the name of that research article I thought for a second that it might offend someone. To offend or single out any specific race was not my intent, and actually the article provides the underlying data for all races. The conclusion made is the same regardless of the race of the dropout.

BTW, my sister is a very white female dropout.

MS

Forsaken_GA

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

I know you're speaking in generalities here, but not everyone who drops out of HS does so b/c they were lazy or couldn't handle the work. Mrs. Zartan is a HS dropout due to family circumstances. As it turns out, she works for a large county hospital with access to all patient financial and medical records and has been promoted several times. She's currently being asked to move up to a very upper level management position.

I get where eMeS is coming from.I don't think he's saying that he personally would disqualify someone without a proven K-12 education, only that his experience with standard hiring practices is that such resumes tend to get round filed fairly often, and when you're dealing with sensitive information, I can understand that. For me, it would bring to question someone's ability to follow through. If you've dropped out of high school and all you've managed to acquire is an A+ since then, you're not telling me a whole lot. When I start triaging resumes, you're likely to become a fatality.

Now, if you've got a GED and you went back for an associates degree, and you've got an A+, that tells me that maybe you had some difficulty earlier in life, but you've been working to get yourself back on track. That may be the difference between roundfile and a phone call.

Is it fair? Probably not. Does it suck? It does if you're the one desperate for a job.

Try and see it from the hiring managers point of view though. Go look up what the penalties are for disclosure of individually identifiable information under HIPPA. Then ask yourself if you were making the hiring decision, how likely you are to hire a 20-something with an A+ and no Diploma/GED.

I work for a company that deals with multitudes of sensitive information. As a company, we have to deal with HIPPA, PCI, and federal banking regulations. I knew a few guys who worked here and stood up for me, and even with that, it was a month long battle to get the hiring approved, and I had to jump through alot of hoops. I don't think my company would discriminate against someone without a high school diploma, but you'd better have some impressive credentials and/or work history before you have a prayer of getting your foot in the door.

Now, for industries that don't handle quite so much sensitive information, is high school going to count against you? Probably not. A good bit of IT is an industry where you can make a very well paying career out of being self-taught, all it takes is proper motivation.

eMeS

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I get where eMeS is coming from.I don't think he's saying that he personally would disqualify someone without a proven K-12 education, only that his experience with standard hiring practices is that such resumes tend to get round filed fairly often, and when you're dealing with sensitive information, I can understand that. For me, it would bring to question someone's ability to follow through. If you've dropped out of high school and all you've managed to acquire is an A+ since then, you're not telling me a whole lot. When I start triaging resumes, you're likely to become a fatality.

Yes. Not only that, many places have you fill out an application that details your educational history. Lack of high school education is going to be an immediate red flag.

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Now, if you've got a GED and you went back for an associates degree, and you've got an A+, that tells me that maybe you had some difficulty earlier in life, but you've been working to get yourself back on track. That may be the difference between roundfile and a phone call.

Agree 100%. I see a GED and high school diploma as equivalent.

Try and see it from the hiring managers point of view though. Go look up what the penalties are for disclosure of individually identifiable information under HIPPA. Then ask yourself if you were making the hiring decision, how likely you are to hire a 20-something with an A+ and no Diploma/GED.

Or, how likely you'd be able to get that person insured/bonded, if that's a requirement in your organization....

MS

Bl8ckr0uter

eMeS wrote: »

Yeah, when I posted the name of that article I thought for a second that it might offend someone. To offend was not my intent, and actually the article provides the underlying data for all races, and the conclusion made is the same regardless of the race of the dropout.

BTW, my sister is a very white female dropout.

MS

I am not really offended as I only represent myself, not the entire black population. I am reading the paper now.

Some Black males drop out of high school. Some White males drop out of high school. Some (insert race here) (insert *** here) drop out of (middle/high/college). I know people who match all of those descriptions.

The reasons why they dropped out is important. I know a woman (black woman) who dropped out of middle school (6th grade). Why? Because she was getting teased day in and day out, she was failing all of her classes and she has several mental disabilities. At the time, the school she was going to had no way to help her and as a result she is now in 38 or so and has very little formal education. Would I trust her to take car of my computer? Hell no. Is she a trust worthy person? Morally yes.


I know a guy who dropped out of high school (white male) in the 10th grade. We were in the same classes up until then. He dropped out because he didn't feel like going/doing his homework/etc and he just stopped showing up. He was probably one of the smartest people I have ever met. Would I trust him to fix my computer? Maybe (if I didn't know how to work on them myself) . But from a hiring I might be less than likely to hire him because what if he just gets tired of coming to work and doesn't show up? What if he doesn't like paper work and doesn't want to document anything?

HS diplomas and BS Degrees show employers that you can learn to tolerate bullshit for at least 8 years. That you have a general level of knowledge and you know how to get work done to some level of effectiveness (shown by your grades).

msteinhilber

Do I personally think someone whom doesn't hold a HS diploma or GED is as desirable of a person? No, I don't think that way myself by any means. I'm very much a supporter of someone proving to me they have the ability to do a good job regardless of their credentials. I've hired many salespeople and PC techs during my tenure running a small PC shop, and in most cases I didn't really look at the resume's overall contents - what they have done, what their education is, etc. I did look at the resumes but mostly to see they made an effort to lay it out well, make it readable and flow well, basically I checked it over to somewhat gauge if they WANTED the job or not. From that point, when it came time to see if someone was a good candidate they got one of a couple interviews depending on the position. Salespeople who arrived for the interview never made it to a sitting position at a nice table to sit down and shoot questions back and forth - I handed them a price sheet of our main system configurations and told them in 5 minutes they had to sell me a PC. Tech's who came in for interviews were given a broken computer, sometimes hardware and sometimes software - and they had to diagnose it accurately then explain to me like I was your average Joe what the problem was and what he would suggest to fix it.

The above is my own personal view, like I said - I give people the chance to prove themselves to me when I'm in a position to hire. Now I look at how most other people in positions to hire might be, absolutely - I think it would be reasonable to believe there are probably a fair amount of people out there who would hold the lack of a HS diploma against someone big time. That's just how society as a majority seems to be, a lot of people judge others without knowing who they really are. Now on the flip side, it's hard to gauge much from the article I presume - and no I have NOT read it and don't care to. But I'll say that there are plenty of entry level PC repair types of job's that someone wanting to break into IT with can obtain easily despite not having the diploma. They get that, build some experience and study for and pass some certification exams and work their way up to the next step. They might just simply not include an education section on their resume, and they may or may not be inquired about where they went to high school or if they have a diploma.

OK, so I just had to give the article a quick read... it's a load of crap, nothing more and nothing less really. Sure it's some Senior VP of CompTIA, big deal - it's nothing more than me interviewing my Uncle Gordon and asking him the same questions and placing it out on the Internet. It's a guy's opinion and this particular man's opinion isn't credible in my opinion given his position and his employer. So I guess that settles that.

it_consultant wrote: »

I would find it hard to hire someone that did not have a GED at least. No HS diploma is one thing, who knows what happened to you as a kid. As an adult, the GED has to be a launching point.

Interesting thing with the GED. While I said I don't hold anything against people who don't have a HS Diploma - and I do mean that - I would be more drawn to the candidate with the GED vs the candidate with no HS diploma assuming they both met the same benchmarks in my interview. Why? Not strictly because the one has the GED and they by default are better because it implies they are more educated. But because it would to me seem like they went through a time where they had problems of whatever sort that caused them to drop out, but it was followed by a point where something caused them to question if it was the right choice and go back and earn the GED. That to me affirms the fact that clearly they are human as we all are - we make mistakes, but they proved to me they are able to admit mistakes and take corrective measures.

networker050184

I think you are misunderstanding my disagreement with your post eMes. I have no argument that the higher your education the more likely you are to be hired and that some organizations will not hire someone without a certain educational requirement. I'd hope you'd know I'm not that naive. What I have a problem with (and take personal offense to) is that you implied someone without a HS diploma is somehow less trustworthy due to that fact.

I do still beleive you have an outdated view on people without a proper HS education though. For all of the positions I have worked, or even interviewed for, the subject of a HS education has not come up one time. Once upon a time it may have been an important thing to ask of a candidate, but I don't think that is the norm today.

mikej412

eMeS wrote: »

So let me get this straight. The healthcare industry needs to fill 45k-75k IT jobs, and an SVP at CompTIA thinks that people who couldn't be troubled to complete high school are competent and trustworthy enough to handle sensitive patient information?

Good thing Hospitals don't hire MBAs
Survey Finds Widespread Cheating in M.B.A. Programs
Wily MBA students lead cheating pack - The Denver Post


Resources > Cheating Statistics
Cheating Fact Sheet - RESEARCH CENTER - Cheating Is A Personal Foul

[FONT=arial,helvetica]While about 20% of college students admitted to cheating in high school during the 1940's, today between 75 and 98 percent of college students surveyed each year report having cheated in high school.[/FONT]

Maybe it's the HONEST people who drop out of high school

mikej412

If you're a high school drop out -- and 17 -- a certification isn't going to make much of a difference. The most likely way to get an IT job then would be if your parents owned the company or you joined the Military.

phantasm

mikej412 wrote: »

If you're a high school drop out -- and 17 -- a certification isn't going to make much of a difference. The most likely way to get an IT job then would be if your parents owned the company or you joined the Military.

Yup, that's about it. I graduated high school, towards the bottom of the list. I saw an ad in the local newspaper for IT training so I called the number. The next day I found myself in the recruiters office. lol.

Do I regret it? No. Did I work IT for the military? No. Did I sort my life out years later, well that's in progress. lol.

Everyone finds their own way in life and what works for John may not work for Joe.