Do employers care?

Bl8ckr0uter

So while in the cisco forum, some douche comes up and boast about how easy the cisco certs are if you use brain **** and such. I saw this in a post:

chrisone wrote: »

Employers should ask for the dates of certificates. . If i was in charge of hiring I would not even let this guy have an interview , especially if he had no job experience.

Now some of the people here are in hiring positions and are probably not an accurate representation of the populous at large. What I would like to know is do employers actually care about whether or not someone braindumped a cert or not? I know the struggle I had going from Network+ level to CCNA/CCNA:Sec level of networking knowledge. I know how many times I took apart and labeled a pc for A+. Most of you know about Security+ (which we won't talk about ) but what I am wondering is would an employer care?

networker050184

All of the employers I've had would care if you falsely obtained any of your qualifications. Cheating shows that you are willing to take the easy way out and don't actually take the time to learn and properly prepare regardless if its a certification, degree etc.

eMeS

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

What I would like to know is do employers actually care about whether or not someone braindumped a cert or not?

Some do and some don't, and sometimes it depends on the industry.

Some employers see certifications as a form of risk management. In other words, if the employee or potential employee holds the cert then they have some assurance from a third party of the individual's knowledge.

I often see government contracting organizations that encourage their employees to pursue certs because they have to show a certain number of employees with certain credentials to bid on or retain specific government contracts. I like to think that they all approach this honestly, but my belief is that this type of driver does not always encourage the most honest behavior.

I had a guy in a class from a government contracting organization last summer who was basically piling on certs of all types. He told me exactly why he was doing it, and I had the impression that his approach was less than honest and that his employer encouraged that behavior. He couldn't be bothered to read any of the material for the class, which is a requirement for the ITIL intermediate classes, which is what he was attending. I told him exactly what I thought of his attitude towards it, and, he subsequently failed the exam simply by underestimating what was required and not putting in the effort that was necessary.

Also last summer I was contacted by a company that sells ITIL training. They had a bad experience with an instructor that delivered an ITIL Intermediate class on their behalf. Half of the class failed the exam, which is about in line with worldwide averages. Evidently they had promised a better result to their customer, and the salesperson specifically asked me what I would do to ensure that all of the students passed the exam. The implication being that I can influence the results because I can proctor the exams. I specifically told him that it's up to the students whether or not they pass the exam. Sales people often care about their next Lexus payment much more than integrity.

That's what I like about some of the more obscure/less popular certifications. The more popular exams are more easily dumped, because the exams are readily available, and this likely affects their market value. However, certifications that are more obscure are less easily dumped, because the tests are well-controlled and are not as prevalent. I strongly believe that the more popular cert programs need to do a better job of investigating and controlling their exam delivery mechanisms...I believe this is the weak link in the chain.

MS

Forsaken_GA

My current employer provides managed security solutions to some very big name companies, and we have to deal with regulations like HIPPA, PCI, and federal banking regulations. In this environment, *any* form of dishonesty is severely frowned upon, so dumping your certs would be a major issue.

One of my interviewers noted all of my Cisco certs, and told me frankly that he didn't put much stock in them anymore. There was too much rampant cheating and he'd seen far too many candidates that list the certs, but couldn't answer questions at the level they were certified for.

I told him I understood, and agreed with him, and that I was perfectly willing to take the Pepsi challenge on anything he wanted to throw at me. That interview session was brutal, and I didn't answer everything correctly (mostly the security related stuff, which is not my strong point, and I was very candid about that), but I got the job offer. Since that interviewer happened to be the VP of Operations, I'm guessing his opinion into my hiring was heavily considered.

Mike_30

My guess is some do some dont. I would just simply think that if you used those tools you would not be prepared fully for the job. IMO I would hate to be unprepared if i just took a class, got my cert and then didnt know wtf I was doing. I could be wrong though since I am totally new to the certs.

My big thing as a new guy is its very confusing to find a good training company as opposed to a company who is going to give me a ****. If anyone has a post to narrow that down for my new self please point it my way because I have been searching.

motogpman

I had to go to one of our Cisco solution providers and after discussing the job portion, the subject turned to training, WGU, and certs. This guy had 2-3 Cisco certs. One of the listed training sites was a known braindump site, he even said it only costs $99 per year for the service. My first reaction was to get piossed since these certs aren't easy for me, time wise and brain power aint what it used to be.

I decided to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, showed him Certguard, and told him it is a braindump site. No response back from him about that info, so I am going to take that as no reply means he knew. I, personally, if told I was doing something like that, would apoligize and make an attempt to tell the other person that I dind't realize that. Eveyone is different, but after 4 emails relating to the job, it's making me more and more pissed.

Is it my business to tell the guy what to do? Not really, it just means that I will now question his integrity and skills when something really technical comes up. Like anything else in life, what comes around goes around.

RobertKaucher

Every employer should care about this. I took the 70-271 after 2 years of working for the Geek Squad and doing networking on the side. I passed in the high 900s. I worked my ass off. The other day I found a stash of flash cards from my MCSE studies. Hand written cards that I used to carry around and study while my wife was shopping, or if I was on break, or between service calls. I dedicated 8 months, probably 25 hours a week, of study to obtain my MCSE. I hate that dumping has caused this attitude. But what can we do that we are not doing already?

rogue2shadow

I agree with everything said above. I also feel that dumping just leads to you becoming even more obsolete quicker. Candidates who do **** and somehow make it through the interview process will most often times find themselves out of a job as they will not be able to perform the day-to-day functions that is required of them. Sure there are some that slip through the cracks, but sooner or later they get whats coming to them.

At the end of the day, lack of productivity = lack of revenue.

mikej412

I assume that someone that goes to the trouble to **** to list a certification on their resume probably has no problem lying about their job experience and education and is probably using friend or family members with cheap pay-as-you-go cell phones as their references.

I also assume that people who **** and lie are more likely to cause a problem than notice or fix a problem -- and walk away from their problems so that someone else will have to fix it (especially at 4:40 PM on Friday afternoons) or at least get blamed for it.

We require a candidate's certification verification before a technical phone interview is scheduled -- and the resume and references are checked before we waste time on an in person lab test and interview. I hardly ever have to run into work anymore for technical interviews.

varelg

eMeS wrote: »

Some do and some don't, and sometimes it depends on the industry.

Some employers see certifications as a form of risk management. In other words, if the employee or potential employee holds the cert then they have some assurance from a third party of the individual's knowledge.

I often see government contracting organizations that encourage their employees to pursue certs because they have to show a certain number of employees with certain credentials to bid on or retain specific government contracts. I like to think that they all approach this honestly, but my belief is that this type of driver does not always encourage the most honest behavior.

I had a guy in a class from a government contracting organization last summer who was basically piling on certs of all types. He told me exactly why he was doing it, and I had the impression that his approach was less than honest and that his employer encouraged that behavior. He couldn't be bothered to read any of the material for the class, which is a requirement for the ITIL intermediate classes, which is what he was attending. I told him exactly what I thought of his attitude towards it, and, he subsequently failed the exam simply by underestimating what was required and not putting in the effort that was necessary.

Also last summer I was contacted by a company that sells ITIL training. They had a bad experience with an instructor that delivered an ITIL Intermediate class on their behalf. Half of the class failed the exam, which is about in line with worldwide averages. Evidently they had promised a better result to their customer, and the salesperson specifically asked me what I would do to ensure that all of the students passed the exam. The implication being that I can influence the results because I can proctor the exams. I specifically told him that it's up to the students whether or not they pass the exam. Sales people often care about their next Lexus payment much more than integrity.

That's what I like about some of the more obscure/less popular certifications. The more popular exams are more easily dumped, because the exams are readily available, and this likely affects their market value. However, certifications that are more obscure are less easily dumped, because the tests are well-controlled and are not as prevalent. I strongly believe that the more popular cert programs need to do a better job of investigating and controlling their exam delivery mechanisms...I believe this is the weak link in the chain.

MS

By far this is the post that underlines many motivations behind hiring in general and IT hiring in particular IMHO the best.
Bolded text is the naked truth, and red text holds my exact personal motivation behind pursuing the cert that I hold now. I thought that it's obscure, but what do ya know, it's not as much now.
Some employers award jobs to people that can talk themselves into those jobs. Some look at the facts and check out the stated. Some don't and hire to please the person that authorizes things important for their business. Meritorial vs. political...
I hope this will motivate those who pursue certs but wonder which way to go, to pursue their true interest. Unless you are in some way related to some authority that has to sign bills so that your employer will profit...

NinjaBoy

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

...What I would like to know is do employers actually care about whether or not someone braindumped a cert or not?

Yes, as an IT manager and 1 of 3 people who sit on the interview panel for IT positions, we do. However like eMeS said it depends on the industry, as well as the organisation and the people doing the interview.

-ken

UnixGuy

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

....One of my interviewers noted all of my Cisco certs, and told me frankly that he didn't put much stock in them anymore. There was too much rampant cheating and he'd seen far too many candidates that list the certs, but couldn't answer questions at the level they were certified for.....

+1 that's what I've seen the most...some employers care some don't, and unfortunately some employers think that whoever certified is a braindumper I guess that's why It's better to put efforts in certs that are difficult/impossible to **** (lab-based certs, cissp, ..etc)

Claymoore

I absolutely care. Stupidity isn't a choice, but dishonesty is. I can accept a candidate that is only qualified to a certain level because I need more worker bees on a project than architects. If I find out a candidate dumped a cert, the interview is over. I don't care how well he knows his stuff, I can't trust him.

I know of several co-workers who have dumped certs and I think less of them because of it. One who bragged about his 1000/1000 and then told me he used a **** was hurt when I called him a cheater. I told him that the only reason he got that score was by cheating, and he pleaded that he really did know the material. He only used a **** because he has test anxiety and needed some help. If you're going to piss yourself at the prospect of aswering 50 multiple-choice questions, how can I expect you to be of any use when production systems are down at 4 AM and we're scrambling to meet our SLAs?

earweed

This is kind of related but a while back on aa WGU community post a guy was on there berating everyone for complaining about examforce being a poor resource. He went on to talk about how he had just taken the Windows 7 test for his work and that his work had supplied study materials for it. He was talking about how easy the test was since it was almost word for word his study material and then he gave the name of the test ****. This was a resource his JOB had supplied and they supplied a ****. A Microsoft partner probably as all his coworkers were required to have Windows 7 done. I wish I knew his company name so I could report it to Microsoft.

[Deleted User]

I wonder how popular cert dumping is in the world of Microsoft Partners and Cisco Partners. Most of their partner status is dependent on what certs individuals have correct?

Devilsbane

eMeS wrote: »

Some do and some don't, and sometimes it depends on the industry.

That is absolutely correct. Simarly related, I had a professor that claimed to have his MCSE, many sans certs, CCNA, CCISP, and said he went to get his MCSE in 2008 in Chicago, he spent a week there and spent a day studying each to pass them all. (Which I questioned at the time, but now I'm thinking why would he go to chicago to take a test he can take here? And it isn't an MCSE)

Well anyways, another professor questioned it (because he teaches the guys higher level server and AD stuff and the guys coming into his class don't even know how to go into network connections and change an IP address, and this is after they took 3 classes (an A+ class, xp/7 class, and server2003/2008 class).

So he asked him for proof and he got blown off for it. So he tells me he called Microsoft and asked them, and was told they can't release that. But he kept pushing and pushing, and finally the guy on the phone told him there is no one in our database with that name.

Does the administration care? Not a bit. They think this guy walks on water despite half of his class meeting with his dean each semester. So here he has a cushy state job with probably awesome pay, the best benefits you can get, and he doesn't do **** for it.

Devilsbane

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Every employer should care about this.
...
But what can we do that we are not doing already?

Yes they should. There isn't much difference between hiring a dumper and a random person walking down the street. But you would never let a stranger in your server room.

As to what can be done, I'm not sure that much more can be done to stop dumpers. One of the best things is a short quiz at the interview, but a lot of companies do that already.

I am more concerned about the people like my former instructor who boast that they have obtained something yet they haven't studied, haven't taken the test, and haven't even bothered to take the time to **** it. And that can easily be tracked by requiring to back up your certs with a transcript. But few companies do this, and none that I have ever associated with.

[Deleted User]

Devilsbane wrote: »

Yes they should. There isn't much difference between hiring a dumper and a random person walking down the street. But you would never let a stranger in your server room.

As to what can be done, I'm not sure that much more can be done to stop dumpers. One of the best things is a short quiz at the interview, but a lot of companies do that already.

I am more concerned about the people like my former instructor who boast that they have obtained something yet they haven't studied, haven't taken the test, and haven't even bothered to take the time to **** it. And that can easily be tracked by requiring to back up your certs with a transcript. But few companies do this, and none that I have ever associated with.

Your school didn't have any kind of probational period before a professor was tenured? What exactly did the professor teach if he wasn't teaching students the basic things? The hiring process of that school must be pretty poor. You would think that there is a head professor that is technical and would be able to find out if a professor knows what they are talking about or not. Sucks for the people who are paying to learn and are getting stiffed because someone is lying about their credentials.

Claymoore

xmalachi wrote: »

I wonder how popular cert dumping is in the world of Microsoft Partners and Cisco Partners. Most of their partner status is dependent on what certs individuals have correct?

I'm sure it's more than I would like, but I would like it to be zero. You also have to wonder if they dumped the exams before being hired by a partner.

Certs are part of the requirements for MS partner status, but you can't get by on certs alone. The new partner requirements went into effect last month, and Gold Partner status is gone. Everything is based around competencies for different technologies, and both the required certifications and number of certified employees changed. To earn Gold Competency status for Desktops, we need 4 people certified as MCITP:EDA7 and a sales plan for our desktop delivery goals.

The other big change is that one person can only map to one gold competency (but multiple silver competencies). That hurts someone like me who has the certs to cover 3 gold competencies because I can only count for one. Before the change you could hire me and a couple of other people for gold partner status. Now companies have to retain, train and certify more employees to meet the requirements. That's good for the customer, but it does place a burden on the company. MS does provide partners free or discounted training resources, but I expect that there will be a few employees at partners who will be encouraged to do 'whatever it takes' to make sure they pass the exams to meet the requirements before the partner status is renewed.

Devilsbane

xmalachi wrote: »

Your school didn't have any kind of probational period before a professor was tenured? What exactly did the professor teach if he wasn't teaching students the basic things? The hiring process of that school must be pretty poor. You would think that there is a head professor that is technical and would be able to find out if a professor knows what they are talking about or not. Sucks for the people who are paying to learn and are getting stiffed because someone is lying about their credentials.

He IS the head professor, he's been there for like 7 years. He teaches everything from an A+ class to classes (which have now moved to 7/2008 but were xp/2003 when I took them) that taught out of the 70-270 and 70-290 books. He also teaches some mostly worthless computer forensic classes because he rambles on about stupid things not relevant to anything, and will often contradict himself. One of the funniest things was that since I was in multiple classes at the same time, I got to see his teaching pattern. If the A+ class talked about RAM in the morning, then the XP class talked about it in the afternoon, and the Forensic talked about it that night. What a joke.

I made it through it because I was able to call BS on certain things and occasionally had "arguments" in class. The most notable being he told us that if a shared permission is read and and NTFS permission is write, you get the read permission when sitting at the console.

Yes it is probably rude to do this in class, but I am sitting with a bunch of people who have paid good money to learn, and you are lying to them.

I also made an effort to learn the truth from the internet, my book, and other professors that did know what they were talking about. It sickens me to know that he is still there lying to students and "screwing them without vaseline" as his peer put it. But there isn't anything that can be done. I spoke with the dean, as did others. I was working with a couple others to circulate a petetion, but somehow it got back to him and the main guy behind it was graded more harshly than everyone else and opted to leave the college.

Another student to speak out against him was conveniently accused of plagorism the next day and kicked out of class.

gouki2005

one of my instructor in cisco academy used a **** to pass the ccna but you know that guy knows A LOT!!! 13 year in the field of course he pass the instructor test too it was a live lab exam really hard..i saw the script for the exam

if you use a **** and you dont know sh1t about the subject you are a retard really is like if tomorrow i going to get linux+ **** and pass the exam but i dont know nothing about linux what about if someone ask me about a linux problem ...i cant respond so that paper is useless == no job for me

[Deleted User]

gouki2005 wrote: »

one of my instructor in cisco academy used a **** to pass the ccna but you know that guy knows A LOT!!! 13 year in the field of course he pass the instructor test too it was a live lab exam really hard..i saw the script for the exam

if you use a **** and you dont know sh1t about the subject you are a retard really is like if tomorrow i going to get linux+ **** and pass the exam but i dont know nothing about linux what about if someone ask me about a linux problem ...i cant respond so that paper is useless == no job for me

Cheating is cheating any way you look at it. Why did he use a **** if he could have passed the exam without it?

gouki2005

xmalachi wrote: »

Cheating is cheating any way you look at it. Why did he use a **** if he could have passed the exam without it?

i think he wanted a quick pass to do the instructor course and then get the job as instructor which make good money

Sabalo

Most of what needs to be said has been said, but I will share a personal observation. The Navy specifically, and the government in general, encourages its employees to take their government sponsored boot camps to pass the tests that the government itself requires to prove competence. Now... correct me if I am wrong, but saying that you want competent employees and then giving them the means to circumvent the test of competence you provide is a bit... counterproductive.

Even after I master a certification track, I am still wary of taking a job based on that certification until I am absolutely confident that I've learned enough of what the test does NOT cover to be seen as a skilled technician in that field. Brain **** would pretty much preclude my being skilled in the field.

Honestly, though, employers just want to know an employee can do the job. If some poor sap brain dumped because she was horrible at tests, but held the skills needed to do the job... the employer would not care.

Devilsbane

Sabalo wrote: »

Most of what needs to be said has been said, but I will share a personal observation. The Navy specifically, and the government in general, encourages its employees to take their government sponsored boot camps to pass the tests that the government itself requires to prove competence. Now... correct me if I am wrong, but saying that you want competent employees and then giving them the means to circumvent the test of competence you provide is a bit... counterproductive.

Even after I master a certification track, I am still wary of taking a job based on that certification until I am absolutely confident that I've learned enough of what the test does NOT cover to be seen as a skilled technician in that field. Brain **** would pretty much preclude my being skilled in the field.

Honestly, though, employers just want to know an employee can do the job. If some poor sap brain dumped because she was horrible at tests, but held the skills needed to do the job... the employer would not care.

There are lots of companies that use that same strategy.

jaykoolzboy

Of course Employers care, IMO I only hire CCNA (whether minted or experienced) that really know their stuff by giving them a random lab during interview), IMO it's the easiest way to determine whether they are real CCNA or not.

citinerd

I kinda hate that **** are available for multiple reasons.

1. I worked at a non IT job with a girl and her boyfriend was a network engineer. He had his MCSE and CCNA and 2 test into the CCNP. I just passed the CCNA after 3 attempts and was studying for the 70-270 to start my MCSE. Her boyfriend asked her what study material I used so I gave her my long list of books and practice tests. The next day she cam in she told me her boyfriend uses a site where the practice test are free and gave me the website. I was pretty happy after spending 60-100 for each practice test so I went to site to check it out. I did not know what **** were but one I downloaded one I smelled something fishy and researched it. So the morale of the story is this person had the job I want but used **** to get certs and here I am doing it the old fasion way and studying and labbing my ass off. I kind of got pissed at the whole situation. Now I met him and he does seem to know what he is talking about.... but still.....

2. The companies like MS and Cisco are huge. They could change the questions so often that **** would not even be helpful. They have the power and money to do so but they don't seem to care that much. They did put sims in the test but I don't think this is good enough. The question's pool should be in the 1000s so there is no way to remember all the answers. I know MS is moving toward a Sims based test for the newer ones, but that is a ways off.


So I think **** give an unfair advantage to people to get them into the door. Also there are some companies that care about the certs and not the knowledge and here we are Labbing and Studying our asses off so we can shell out the $$$ to take these damn tests that, thanks to ****, are losing their value.

Sabalo

So I think **** give an unfair advantage to people to get them into the door. Also there are some companies that care about the certs and not the knowledge and here we are Labbing and Studying our asses off so we can shell out the $$$ to take these damn tests that, thanks to ****, are losing their value.

I'd love to see a pure lab environment... and hell, I'd pay 10x current price for a cert if the lab environment were generated on the spot. You walk in, the proctor hands you your packet that they generated when you registered, and you take your test. Heck, I could see "combination" tests in which you, say, took the live lab for 70-640, 70-642, and 70-646 and came out hours later with an MCITP: SA.

But... it is not likely to happen.

I think that ultimately, the people that know their stuff will rise to the top when it becomes apparent that they DO know their stuff.

Devilsbane

Sabalo wrote: »

and hell, I'd pay 10x current price for a cert if the lab environment were generated on the spot.

I wouldn't, $1,250 for a test is pretty steep.

Sabalo

Devilsbane wrote: »

I wouldn't, $1,250 for a test is pretty steep.

I can talk smack; I'm not spending MY money right now.

L0gicB0mb508

I'm going to fall in to the crowd that says most don't care as long as you can do the job they hire you to do. I don't really agree with dumping at all (unless you are buying my product, please see sig), but if you can do the job, I honestly don't care about your piece of paper.