My view on IT/CS degrees

tango3065

My degree and multiple certs are in Information Technology and IMHO it was a mistake, I love the field and I'm very good at it but the guys in my department with no degrees at all make as much as me but with the lack of education along with much needed core knowledge in the field.

I'm currently working on a degree in a different field at the age of 32; The best advise I could give anyone is get a degree in a field that requires a degree or you will be like me and feel screwed. IT/CS is not a professional field in my opinion, if it where it would have educational requirements and not hire someone that is just good at working on PC's, or writing some code that they learned by messing around.

If you really want to get a get a degree in IT/CS more power to you and best of luck but just know ahead of time it will might not put you ahead of someone with no college at all. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I hope that someone getting on here thinking of going for a degree in IT/CS gives it a look.

N2IT

tango3065 wrote: »

My degree and multiple certs are in Information Technology and IMHO it was a mistake, I love the field and I'm very good at it but the guys in my department with no degrees at all make as much as me but with the lack of education along with much needed core knowledge in the field.

I'm currently working on a degree in a different field at the age of 32; The best advise I could give anyone is get a degree in a field that requires a degree or you will be like me and feel screwed. IT/CS is not a professional field in my opinion, if it where it would have educational requirements and not hire someone that is just good at working on PC's, or writing some code that they learned by messing around.

If you really want to get a get a degree in IT/CS more power to you and best of luck but just know ahead of time it will might not put you ahead of someone with no college at all. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I hope that someone getting on here thinking of going for a degree in IT/CS gives it a look.

Where did you get your degree from? Is it an AAS or a BS or BA?

I think a lot of variables come into play not just a blanket statement like you made. I have several friends who graduated from the local state university with a CIS degree and few make some nice coin. Around 80+ in the midwest. I met a 21 year old girl graduating from Missouri Science and Technology who is in an IT engineering program and she is nothing but SAP and she already has nice offers from Monsanto and other profitable companies.

I do agree though if you are going to a business degree you might as well get a Finance, Accounting or Economics.

erpadmin

tango3065 wrote: »

My degree and multiple certs are in Information Technology and IMHO it was a mistake, I love the field and I'm very good at it but the guys in my department with no degrees at all make as much as me but with the lack of education along with much needed core knowledge in the field.

I'm currently working on a degree in a different field at the age of 32; The best advise I could give anyone is get a degree in a field that requires a degree or you will be like me and feel screwed. IT/CS is not a professional field in my opinion, if it where it would have educational requirements and not hire someone that is just good at working on PC's, or writing some code that they learned by messing around.

If you really want to get a get a degree in IT/CS more power to you and best of luck but just know ahead of time it will might not put you ahead of someone with no college at all. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I hope that someone getting on here thinking of going for a degree in IT/CS gives it a look.

You're going to love me then

I have (currently) no degree and I make as much as some of my colleagues who has a...[wait for it........] Masters! I'm 33 btw, and I've been in the field for going on 14 years (professionally).

Your advice/rant would make sense if you were pursuing a medical or law career. For you to say that IT isn't a professional field because you went to community college, and your colleagues didn't, does not really make much sense. I do have some college though, and that's really what got me employed in the first place, but the last thing I finished with was a high school diploma.

Many jobs I have seen will allow you to substitute education for work experience...something I'm very familiar with. However, I've reached the glass ceiling at this level, and I'm trying to see IT management. I plan on getting not only getting a BS (in IT... ) but I will top that off with a Masters (either in Management or BA with an IT management component). If I can't use that to get myself promoted, I can definitely use it to adjunct teach after my day job and into retirement.

In any event, I feel and fear that your rant/advice is a tiny bit misguided. Not everything is so black and white...

mikej412

tango3065 wrote: »

I love the field and I'm very good at it but the guys in my department with no degrees at all make as much as me but with the lack of education along with much needed core knowledge in the field.

How long have you been in the IT Field? How many IT jobs have you had before this one? And exactly what are you doing now?

NinjaBoy

IMO, the problem isn't with the degree themselves - it's with the Profession as it stands.

Unlike other more established professions (eg Engineering, Nursing, Law, etc), IT is more or less unregulated. Anyone can play around with computers at home and call themselves an "IT Professional". In fact I've seen organisations stick people in the IT department, when they couldn't get rid of them just because they can use a PC.

Organisations like the BCS, ECUK, ACS, CIPS, ACM, NPA, etc are working to raise standards and the profession itself. However it's an uphill battle. Alot of proper professional IT Pro's want more money, want to rid the profession from "cowboys", want more respect (from other professions), etc... Yet when it comes to supporting the goals of the organisation only a very small percentage (out of the whole IT workforce) will do so (whether it's volunteering or membership, etc).

I have to say that I'm pro Computing/IT related degrees, after all I have one. Do I hate that people with no-degrees are making more than me? No, there are people with no degrees that I earn more than or earn the same as. Alot of my closest friends, don't have degrees and they know they're stuff inside and out. Added to that, there are many alternatives to degrees now-a-days.

-Ken

cisco_certs

I dont know about your state but the jobs (monster/dice/careerbuilder) here in California most of the time says "bachelors required" and then "X certs required".

Psoasman

Degrees and certs are a way of validating the knowledge you have. I can't remember the last job posting I saw that stated no degree or certs required
In many organizations, you can't even get an interview without a degree/certs.

tomahawkeer

I know there is a lot of people out there, with no degree that have a very good career in the IT field, but let me put this out there. I am one of those guys, that does NOT have an IT degree, but have 10 years experience. Ive been passed over a couple of times for some VERY good jobs, only because I did NOT have a degree. With that being, said, thats why im back in school. Missing out on jobs that would have paid me 20-25k per year more than what im making now, is going to be a thing of the past in the next year. Is it possible that there are other people that ill run into along the way that have that better job without a degree? I guarantee it! But will it pass me by again, because I dont have the degree? Hell no!

jmritenour

erpadmin wrote: »

You're going to love me then

I have (currently) no degree and I make as much as some of my colleagues who has a...[wait for it........] Masters! I'm 33 btw, and I've been in the field for going on 14 years (professionally).

Your advice/rant would make sense if you were pursuing a medical or law career. For you to say that IT isn't a professional field because you went to community college, and your colleagues didn't, does not really make much sense. I do have some college though, and that's really what got me employed in the first place, but the last thing I finished with was a high school diploma.

Many jobs I have seen will allow you to substitute education for work experience...something I'm very familiar with. However, I've reached the glass ceiling at this level, and I'm trying to see IT management. I plan on getting not only getting a BS (in IT... ) but I will top that off with a Masters (either in Management or BA with an IT management component). If I can't use that to get myself promoted, I can definitely use it to adjunct teach after my day job and into retirement.

In any event, I feel and fear that your rant/advice is a tiny bit misguided. Not everything is so black and white...

I'm in the exact same boat as erpadmin.

In my department, I'm the ONLY one without a degree of some type. Yet I'm the one who has everything dropped in my lap because I'm able to learn quickly and adapt, and I'm never intimidated by anything. I hold many of my colleagues hands through some very basic (to me at least) stuff. While they were spending four years of their life learning a (outdated) state approved curriculum in collage, I was already working in the field at the ground level getting hands on experience, and finding out what "best practices" actually were the best, and which ones were not really practical.

I think employers have gotten smarter about figuring out that someone with a degree isn't necessarily preferable to someone with experience. While some companies turn their nose up at my resume seeing as I don't have a degree, I have had no problems getting called in for interviews in this down economy with my experience and certifications, and a well dressed resume.

That said, I have decided to work on a BS at WGU - I don't know that I necessarily expect it to improve my career in leaps and bounds, it's more of a personal pride thing. I'm going to be a father in April - I want to be able to look my children in the eye and say that you should never quit or give up, and it's never too late to finish what you started. If it opens any other doors for me professionally, great - but now it's more about setting an example for my kids.

After that, I might look into a master's - but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

erpadmin

cisco_certs wrote: »

I dont know about your state but the jobs (monster/dice/careerbuilder) here in California most of the time says "bachelors required" and then "X certs required".

I've looked at state jobs in Cali, as a matter of fact as many higher ed schools in the UC system are PeopleSoft shops. Same deal; I can mix education with work experience if I had a desire to go out West. If I were to work for Oracle itself though (which, incidently, hires WGU grads since they're a partner with them), then the BS I'm working on would help...but I don't forsee that happening.

I would imagine the same is true for Network Admin/Engineering jobs for those wanting to pursue the Cisco route. [Pun intended]

erpadmin

NinjaBoy wrote: »

IMO, the problem isn't with the degree themselves - it's with the Profession as it stands.

Unlike other more established professions (eg Engineering, Nursing, Law, etc), IT is more or less unregulated. Anyone can play around with computers at home and call themselves an "IT Professional". In fact I've seen organisations stick people in the IT department, when they couldn't get rid of them just because they can use a PC.

This isn't the 90's anymore where that would have been true. Experience now separates the PC Hobbyist from the IT Professional. In that same vein, someone who merely graduates from a degree-granting institution with no experience can't call themselves an IT Professional either. I have always stated, from the beginning, that a IT Professional has to have IT experience that can be quantified with a resume (or in your case a CV).

ibcritn

tango3065 wrote: »

If you really want to get a get a degree in IT/CS more power to you and best of luck but just know ahead of time it will might not put you ahead of someone with no college at all. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I hope that someone getting on here thinking of going for a degree in IT/CS gives it a look.

If you are referring to a 2year degree then I completely agree that it alone wont do much for you, but a 4year degree can make a HUGE difference in your career.

Personally, I don't agree at all that degrees don't matter....the job I have now, which is WAY above where most are at my age, was due to my IS degree.

I think the game field has changed. If you are say in your early 20s and you don't have your degree or working towards it employers see this a bad sign 10years or so this likely wouldn't have had such an impact.

xenodamus

Experience is the kicker in this field. I think you can use a degree to put yourself in a better position than those with similar experience.

Candidate 1 - IT degree/no experience
Candidate 2 - no experience

When you're competing for higher level jobs, though, experience becomes much more important. The degree can still make you look better on paper than others.

Candidate 1 - IT degree/5 yrs exp.
Candidate 2 - 5 yrs exp.

But that doesn't apply to all situations because the TYPE of experience you have will be a big determining factor for higher level jobs. So, are degrees worthless? Absolutely not. Will they get you a job by themselves? Maybe, maybe not.

NinjaBoy

erpadmin wrote: »

This isn't the 90's anymore where that would have been true. Experience now separates the PC Hobbyist from the IT Professional. In that same vein, someone who merely graduates from a degree-granting institution with no experience can't call themselves an IT Professional either...

The '90's? Mate I'm talking about now. The amount of time my team and I have had to be hired into other organisations to clean up the mess that "experienced IT Pro's" with X amount of year experience left behind. What happens to them? They move on, change their company name, move area, change employers, etc... So basically nothing.

I've taught MCSA/MCSE 2003 classes to experienced IT Professionals where I've come across a couple that couldn't join a XP client to a domain (even though they had their MCSA & MCSE 2000).

I've interviewed experienced IT Professionals with and without degrees, MCSA's, MCSE's, etc... That had a nice work history but:

1 couldn't find where to change the default gateway on a client machine (statically assigned IP address).

1 couldn't find where to put the proxy in IE.

And the list goes on.

Unlike the title/term engineer (or Eurling), the term "IT Professional" is not protected under law (no matter what country your in), so anyone can use that title/term.

erpadmin wrote: »

...I have always stated, from the beginning, that a IT Professional has to have IT experience that can be quantified with a resume (or in your case a CV).

I agree... However how much experience, at what level, doing what and at what standard must they work to before they can be called themselves an IT Professional? Would a person who has an IT related degree in his/her first week of his/her first IT job (eg helpdesk logging jobs) be classed as an IT Professional?

-Ken

tango3065

Experience will be taken in place of education on a year for year basis sound familiar to anyone in the field? Yeah a four or even 6 year degree will get you working with non college graduates making the same amount.

erpadmin

NinjaBoy wrote: »

The '90's? Mate I'm talking about now. The amount of time my team and I have had to be hired into other organisations to clean up the mess that "experienced IT Pro's" with X amount of year experience left behind. What happens to them? They move on, change their company name, move area, change employers, etc... So basically nothing.

I've taught MCSA/MCSE 2003 classes to experienced IT Professionals where I've come across a couple that couldn't join a XP client to a domain (even though they had their MCSA & MCSE 2000).

...

Unlike the title/term engineer (or Eurling), the term "IT Professional" is not protected under law (no matter what country your in), so anyone can use that title/term.

Personally, I didn't need to be an MCP to do any of those (many of us didn't)...I'm very familiar with your country's guilds and how Engineer and Architect are legally protected terms, which is why I can never become an MCSE (unless I spend time I do not have on obtaining the MCSE 2003). While experience is relevant to be called an IT professional, it's up to the interviewer to see/know what's up with a candidate. If someone with 3+ years can't do the most basic of tasks, well it is obvious what needs to be done.

NinjaBoy wrote: »

Would a person who has an IT related degree in his/her first week of his/her first IT job (eg helpdesk logging jobs) be classed as an IT Professional?

Of course not. I don't know how it is in cricket, rugby or even soccer (I said soccer, not "football"), but most professionals I know (in sports or otherwise) become professionals/veterans after a year and lose their rookie status. One week just won't fly.

asurania

From what i seen, a degree is not as important as it use to be in the past. At the same time I would still get a degree, since you never know when it will come in use. Think of it is as a life insurance policy.

They are some companies where degrees are mandatory for example I noticed KPMG, BP Energy, Shell ....from what I seen needs degrees. (i could be mistaken)....

But at the end of the day you are better off having a degree..you are just protecting your future.

networker050184

tango3065 wrote: »

Experience will be taken in place of education on a year for year basis sound familiar to anyone in the field? Yeah a four or even 6 year degree will get you working with non college graduates making the same amount.

So what? Sounds like you are bit jealous is all. Worry about yourself and you won't have to deal with the horrible injustice of some lowly, common person without a degree earning the same as you

shodown

I think you are just hating on those who do better than you. You have a choice you can go to a company that requires a degree, and feel safe or you can just get better. I'm one of the many on this site who don't have a degree and do well for myself. But it was my own hustle that got me here not a degree or certs. I used the certs as a tool. A degree is the same thing. I know we play a lot of value on them, but they are becoming more worthless in todays world. In the end you still have to perform.

WilliamK99

Not to be mean, but an Associate's isn't really a degree... Most employers look down on an AA.... You need a Bachelor's minimum to be taken seriously. IMO, having no degree is better than an Associates....

cisco_certs

erpadmin wrote: »

I've looked at state jobs in Cali, as a matter of fact as many higher ed schools in the UC system are PeopleSoft shops. Same deal; I can mix education with work experience if I had a desire to go out West. If I were to work for Oracle itself though (which, incidently, hires WGU grads since they're a partner with them), then the BS I'm working on would help...but I don't forsee that happening.

I would imagine the same is true for Network Admin/Engineering jobs for those wanting to pursue the Cisco route. [Pun intended]

NP, Im open minded.

there's always an exception and with yours, years of experience, you are the exception. The debate here is if joe has 5 years of experience in peoplesoft + degree VS bill that has 5 years experience in peoplesoft without a degree. I think the one with the degree will get the edge.

megbot

my IT degree got me my first real job, which was with a Cisco partner. If not for that job there's no way I'd be where I am now. Though others in my group don't all have degrees, I definitely am glad to have it, as it got me my start.

And now I'm 26 and my group's technical lead. I'm at least 10 years younger than everyone else. I'm not the lead because of my degree, but because of the experience the degree got me.

(PS: I have a bachelors in IT)

erpadmin

cisco_certs wrote: »

NP, Im open minded.

there's always an exception and with yours, years of experience, you are the exception. The debate here is if joe has 5 years of experience in peoplesoft + degree VS bill that has 5 years experience in peoplesoft without a degree. I think the one with the degree will get the edge.

If all things are equal, then it's going to boil down into things like organizational fit, personalities, and a myriad of other things.

Don't get me wrong, a degree is going to help in the long run and if I didn't believe that, I would not be bothering in pursuing one myself. I'm not doing it to get a lateral position though...I'm pretty sure I don't need a degree for what I do. However, once you reach a certain point in your career, you gotta make assessments and see what you need to do to break the glass ceiling. In my case, I plan on testing that out right after I graduate.

xenodamus

WilliamK99 wrote: »

having no degree is better than an Associates....

Could you elaborate? I don't take offense, because I have enough years of experience that my AAS is a moot point in my career now. But I can't think of any situation where this statement would be true.

Maybe it's different in the States, but what you're telling me is that given two candidates with equal experience and aptitude, having an Associates degree puts you at a DISADVANTAGE when compared to those without one. You believe employers would count a 2 year degree as a strike against applicants and throw them out in favor of equal candidates with no degree?

After 8 years and 3 employers in IT, I can tell you that I've never thought to myself, "Man...if only I didn't have a degree I might have gotten that job."

Bl8ckr0uter

WilliamK99 wrote: »

Not to be mean, but an Associate's isn't really a degree... Most employers look down on an AA.... You need a Bachelor's minimum to be taken seriously. IMO, having no degree is better than an Associates....

This is going to be news to the 1000s of schools that offer them and the 10s of 1000s of people who hold an Associates....


Yea I am calling BS on this. I have seen jobs that have required a min of an AS or an AAS. I don't think an Associates is "worth" as much as a Bachelors but to say that an Associates is worth less than a high school diploma (or GED) is kind of laughable dude. What would make you even believe that? Did an employer come up to you and say that an Associates degree is worthless? I am just curious how your formed that postulate.

In the summer of 2k11 I should graduate (with honors if I buckle down ) 2 Associates degrees (software development and network engineering) and I don't think it will hinder my career. Anything college education you can get will help you, especially college education that results in a degree.

Psoasman

WilliamK99 wrote: »

Not to be mean, but an Associate's isn't really a degree... Most employers look down on an AA.... You need a Bachelor's minimum to be taken seriously. IMO, having no degree is better than an Associates....

Of course an Associate's degree a degree, that's why they call it that. Any extra education will help you. I am almost done with my AAS, and will head to WGU to finish my Bachelor's in IT.

NinjaBoy

erpadmin wrote: »

Personally, I didn't need to be an MCP to do any of those (many of us didn't)...

True, for alot of us these exams came later. However the point that I was trying to make was that experienced IT Professionals, even those that got certified by vendors - still didn't know the basics.

erpadmin wrote: »

I'm very familiar with your country's guilds and how Engineer and Architect are legally protected terms, which is why I can never become an MCSE (unless I spend time I do not have on obtaining the MCSE 2003).

Cool, however Engineering titles are even protected in the US, Canada and in Asia. I believe one of the reasons Microsoft changed the term Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer was due to lawsuits in Canada

erpadmin wrote: »

...While experience is relevant to be called an IT professional, it's up to the interviewer to see/know what's up with a candidate. If someone with 3+ years can't do the most basic of tasks, well it is obvious what needs to be done.

Agreed, however there are still alot of companies out there that have don't have the technical knowledge to assist them in this matter.

Even if the right knowledgeable experience candidate is taken, eg right amount/type of experience, required qualifications, etc... That still doesn't mean that the person is not a cowboy, there are some "IT Professional's" out there that ignores potential risks and act irresponsibly (do only half the job, overcharge/extort, hack/crack, etc). This then turns from a "can't" situation to a "doesn't" situation, and most of the time this is found out too late.

Yes it is obvious what needs to be done. However in today's sue society, plus certain laws/rules (eg in the UK it's harder to get rid of someone after the first 12 months, than within the first 12 months - not saying that it's impossible though), you can't just fire someone - you have to build up a case and that takes time. That still does not stop that person getting another IT job and doing the same thing again.

erpadmin wrote: »

Of course not. I don't know how it is in cricket, rugby or even soccer (I said soccer, not "football"), but most professionals I know (in sports or otherwise) become professionals/veterans after a year and lose their rookie status. One week just won't fly.

I not sure how it is with those sports also, even though I live here I'm not from the UK... Added to that I've lived in the US, Asia as well as Europe But even in baseball, as I recall (however my memory of it is a bit hazy), they are "regulated" by the MLB organisation which adheres to the Major League Baseball Constitution.

I'm not saying that having the IT world regulated would be perfect. After all I wouldn't want to be told, for example, that I had to use the ITIL methodology (when FITS is sector specific) in my organisation and PMP (when Prince2 is a good alternative) for when I do projects.

Maybe I'm a bit pessimistic currently, but experience shapes us all...

Anyway, happy new year

-Ken

WilliamK99

xenodamus wrote: »

Could you elaborate? I don't take offense, because I have enough years of experience that my AAS is a moot point in my career now. But I can't think of any situation where this statement would be true.

Maybe it's different in the States, but what you're telling me is that given two candidates with equal experience and aptitude, having an Associates degree puts you at a DISADVANTAGE when compared to those without one. You believe employers would count a 2 year degree as a strike against applicants and throw them out in favor of equal candidates with no degree?

After 8 years and 3 employers in IT, I can tell you that I've never thought to myself, "Man...if only I didn't have a degree I might have gotten that job."

In the United States I have seen a guy with an Associates, some certs and no experience get passed over for a guy with no degree, some certs and some experience. I just don't think an associates matters right now. I look at an Associates as a stepping stone to a Bachelors but too many times like the OP, they stop at the Associates and wonder why they cant get a good job.

In my experience companies consider the following factors

1) Bachelors
2) experience
3) Certifications
4) Associates

So basically out of all 4 things employers look for in the IT industry, an Associates ranks on the bottom IMO...

Mike-Mike

tango3065 wrote: »

My degree and multiple certs are in Information Technology and IMHO it was a mistake, I love the field and I'm very good at it but the guys in my department with no degrees at all make as much as me but with the lack of education along with much needed core knowledge in the field.

I'm currently working on a degree in a different field at the age of 32; The best advise I could give anyone is get a degree in a field that requires a degree or you will be like me and feel screwed. IT/CS is not a professional field in my opinion, if it where it would have educational requirements and not hire someone that is just good at working on PC's, or writing some code that they learned by messing around.

If you really want to get a get a degree in IT/CS more power to you and best of luck but just know ahead of time it will might not put you ahead of someone with no college at all. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I hope that someone getting on here thinking of going for a degree in IT/CS gives it a look.

starting to see a lot of Kentucky on here.... where you at in KY? and where did you get your Associates from?

i have an Associate's in Business from University of Phoenix, and I am completeing another Associates's from Sullivan in IT.. then on to my B.S.

but, in my job search, I saw several jobs that would bump up my initial pay based on a 2 year degree, and even more for a 4 year degree

hex_omega

Hmmm. You say your certs and degree are worthless yet you took the time to list them in the cert section of your profile. I don't get it.

hex_omega

WilliamK99 wrote: »

Not to be mean, but an Associate's isn't really a degree... Most employers look down on an AA.... You need a Bachelor's minimum to be taken seriously. IMO, having no degree is better than an Associates....

Whaaaa? umad, breh?