Active Army IT/Cyber

wastedtime

I have been meaning to make a post about Active Army anything relating to Active Army IT/Cyber for awhile.
While there are other signal MOSes (Military Occupational Specialty) that do IT work right now the MOSes primarily involved in this area are 25B, 25N, 35N, 35S, 35T.

25B - Information Technology Specialist
This is your basic IT guy. Typically they do a lot of Information Assurance work and helpdesk work. They do some computer networking still but some of that has been taken by the 25Ns. Also a lot of the work has been taken by civilians. I have seen them manage firewalls, servers, networks, VoIP systems but it is few and far between anymore. A lot of these jobs are in S6 shops which are Commo/IT shops for battalions and brigades.

25N - Nodal Network Systems Operator-Maintainer
This is a newer MOS that came out in late 2005 if I remember right. It was designed to support the new Nodal Networks to replace the old Mobile Subscriber Equipment. When it first came out a lot of 25Fs were reclassed into this MOS which isn’t surprising as this MOS is similar to a combination of 25F and 25B. Last I knew they consider it a transitional MOS which to me means the job duties could change as they add to or take away from the new systems.

35N - Signals Intelligence Analyst
35S - Signals Collector / Analyst
I am listing these two MOSes together as right now they are the main MOSes for “Cyber” missions. There typical job isn’t directly in line with the Cyber missions. But until you see the army finish creating a specific MOS for it these are the ones that are most commonly filling it.

35T - Military Intelligence (MI) Systems Maintainer/Integrator
These are probably most similar to a Signal Corps 25U in that they get trained on a bit of everything IT/Commo/Electronic Repair but they are specifically for MI equipment.

So the brake down of Cyber and IT would be something like this:
IT – 25B, 25N, 35T
Cyber – 25B, 35N, 35S, 35T

Cyber and Information Assurance (IA)
For the most part when you are talking about a Cyber you are talking about Computer Network Operations (CNO). CNO is further broken down into three areas Computer Network Attack (CNA), Computer Network Defense (CND), and Computer Network Exploitation (CNE). (I know I am probably going to get some flak for this but this is what I am seeing) While CND does fall under DoDs list of IA they are not treated completely the same as the CNO CND. Under IA the focus is more on preventative measures in compliance, regulation, and policy. Whereas CNO CND is typically more of a heuristic and collaborative effort to defend networks.
While in an IA position the Army does have to follow DoD 8570.01-m which requires certain training and certifications for these jobs. The certification can be paid for by NETCOM.

Enlisting
If you are enlisting in the army you can sign up for an MOS. This MOS is guaranteed provided you don’t do anything from enlistment time through your Advanced Individual Training (AIT) time. For example if you fail a test or clearance gets denied. If the Army cannot meet your request after you sign up then what I have seen is an option for a different MOS or an honorable chapter out of the military. Remember when you enlist in the military regardless of the MOS you pick you are still a soldier. You may be configuring 5 million dollars of equipment in the morning and cleaning a latrine or pulling guard in the afternoon.

Deployment
Right now we are in a time of conflict. If you come into the military expect to deploy. It doesn’t mean that you will. I have seen and am still seeing people retire without ever deploying. Please do not become a consciences objector after you come into the military, you are not helping yourself or your country by doing that. You are just wasting people’s time and tax money. Same thing goes for going against the Presidents orders. That goes for either agreeing or disagreeing and like the LTC we had who didn’t feel the president was a native born American.

Helpful Links
Computers & Technology | GoArmy.com
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/857001m.pdf
Computer network operations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Welcome to ArmyReenlistment.com - Your Source for Career Enhancement
http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fmi6-02-60.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Manager_Force_XXI_Battle_Command_Brigade_and_Below
http://www.uxxi.org/docs/briefings/dd2n25.pdf
http://www.klasonline.com/products/products_klaspioneer_v1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Advanced_GPS_Receiver
http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/66538-question-about-top-secret-clearance.html


If I think of more to put on here I will update this. I realize some of this is opinion but Cyber and IT are both heavily changing in the Military and in the Army.

bellhead

Great Post...

I think we need to do one of these for each branch so people can see what each job does and how they very similar from service to service.

networker050184

You also have 25Q (UHF Radios) and 25S (Satellite) that work closely with the 25N and 25B on the JNN stuff. They provide the transport links for the communications gear.

Then there is the 25U who is your basic commo guy. I've seen them do just about everything, but usually more on the radio side.

tpatt100

I went to the 25N school last year for three months. I did not learn a damn thing except death by Power Point. The classes were set up for the contractors who most of them only knew what was on the slide. I got called a trouble maker by two of them when I kept asking for the PDF manual files for the equipment. I told them we were being taught to hand jam stuff into the Cisco call manager but nobody knew what the values meant. I said I would teach myself in my off time since I only had a hotel room to look forward to each day.

They told me "you are only supposed to learn what we show you". I said "What am I learning? entering values into fields???" Then I got yelled at when I found the Cisco help files and started reading there, an instructor came up behind me and asked why I was reading it. I said because I do not learn well if I have no idea what I am being told to do I have to actually understand it as well.

I would have spent my time better watching Sailor Moon reruns.

uhtrinity

Reminds me of of some of my AIT which was electronics based. I already had my AAS when I enlisted and had the background. Whenever the I would bring up an actual technical question the instructors would get frustrated and sidestep the question. I was initially part of a small AIT class of 4 or 5, but the others all failed out. They wanted to recycle the whole class, but I talked the Master Sergeant in charge of the track to let me challenge 4 weeks worth of material so I could move up to the next class. From my experience AIT training is fairly shallow and they only teach you what you need to know to do the job, nothing more.

Once I reached my actual duty stations I only met 2 or 3 other people in the remaining four and a half years that actually knew the job. The rest ended up with non technical duties ranging from office work or cutting grass. In our shop I was the one who usually got tasked with the technical jobs. The sad thing is most of the people who didn't know the job were the first to reenlist or were already in charge of the shops.

As a side note I now get emails for available job openings from General Dynamics for AIT instructor positions related to my old MOS..... all because I applied for a local government help desk manager position.

ArabianKnight

The Army will be coming out with a new 35 series MOS that is specifically Cyber Security. Right now only 35 series MOS's can apply for the 6 month training program and it is the same school the Navy uses for there Cypto Tech position. I would choose one of the 35 series MOS's, maybe the 35N if I had to do it all over again. You will get a TS/SCI with CI Poly with the 35N, S, P jobs but only a Secret with the 25 series.

lenell86

35N, according to usmilitary.about.com, states nothing about working in computers or anything IT related, its only the 25 series that are IT related.

networker050184

tpatt100 wrote: »

I went to the 25N school last year for three months. I did not learn a damn thing except death by Power Point. The classes were set up for the contractors who most of them only knew what was on the slide. I got called a trouble maker by two of them when I kept asking for the PDF manual files for the equipment. I told them we were being taught to hand jam stuff into the Cisco call manager but nobody knew what the values meant. I said I would teach myself in my off time since I only had a hotel room to look forward to each day.

They told me "you are only supposed to learn what we show you". I said "What am I learning? entering values into fields???" Then I got yelled at when I found the Cisco help files and started reading there, an instructor came up behind me and asked why I was reading it. I said because I do not learn well if I have no idea what I am being told to do I have to actually understand it as well.

I would have spent my time better watching Sailor Moon reruns.

Ouch, sorry to hear that you had a bad experience. My 25N course was six weeks long and 12 hour days. We even got to get out of PT! We had some really smart instructors also and I learned a lot in the course. This was in 05 or 06 I believe so the training seems to have gone down hill quite a bit.

JockVSJock

I Googled this about 25N from the following website:

is this really true (about 25n) - Topic In the Army Study Guide Forums

25N is Tactical- you'll be running a Joint Node Network (JNN). The JNN is a box on the back of a humvee.
-Along with an STT (Satellite Terminal Transportable- a trailer) it provides tactical comms (Cisco phones, NIPR and secure computer access) to a Brigade headquarters.

You'll be running Cisco routers and switches, firewalls, encryption devices, and more.

Our brigade has 1 JNN and 7 Command Post Nodes (CPN) which are like very small versions of a JNN in a few transit cases. The JNN belongs to the Signal Company but is usually deployed wherever the Brigade staff is.
(Except for next deployment LOL)

School will be plenty boring but give you the basics of what you need for each component. Hit me with any other questions or issues you might have..


Go Signal!

wastedtime

JockVSJock wrote: »

I Googled this about 25N from the following website:

is this really true (about 25n) - Topic In the Army Study Guide Forums

For the most part. That Chief has some pretty decent information further into the thread too. I don't know why 25N wouldn't go to a tactical unit other then the school house at Fort Gordon. The Joint-Nodal-Network is a tactical network. All tactical means in this case is that the unit is deployable whereas strategic would be non-deployable.

wastedtime

lenell86 wrote: »

35N, according to usmilitary.about.com, states nothing about working in computers or anything IT related, its only the 25 series that are IT related.

Right, they don't do IT work but they are one of the primary MOSes for CNO work along with 35S.

wastedtime

networker050184 wrote: »

You also have 25Q (UHF Radios) and 25S (Satellite) that work closely with the 25N and 25B on the JNN stuff. They provide the transport links for the communications gear.

Then there is the 25U who is your basic commo guy. I've seen them do just about everything, but usually more on the radio side.

You're right, I was trying to stick to mainly IT/CNO Jobs which was mainly the 25B, 25N. The other Commo MOSes are mostly IT by the units necessity. A common battalion S6 MTOE would look something like this 2-25B, 2-25U, 2-25(Q/S/N), 1-25W, 1-25A. The 25Bs work is usually fairly constant as computers are needed both out in the field and back in the buildings. So, ya I have seen all of them doing "25B" work, but just covering down/cross-training.

networker050184

25B also serve on the CPN teams which are the smaller nodes in the JNN network. I know a few guys that reclasssed to try and get out of the tactical comms roles, but then they were put on CPN teams that are way more tactical then being a 25N working on a larger node.

25N also has non tactical assignments. You can do post support in a BSB, or you can go to fixed stations like units in Japan, NATO in Holland etc.

JockVSJock

wastedtime wrote: »

For the most part. That Chief has some pretty decent information further into the thread too. I don't know why 25N wouldn't go to a tactical unit other then the school house at Fort Gordon. The Joint-Nodal-Network is a tactical network. All tactical means in this case is that the unit is deployable whereas strategic would be non-deployable.

Ah, that clears it up for me Tactical Vs Strategic status for that MOS.

I'll be able to give more info for the 25N MOS, because I'll be once here for the US Army.

wastedtime

networker050184 wrote: »

25B also serve on the CPN teams which are the smaller nodes in the JNN network. I know a few guys that reclasssed to try and get out of the tactical comms roles, but then they were put on CPN teams that are way more tactical then being a 25N working on a larger node.

25N also has non tactical assignments. You can do post support in a BSB, or you can go to fixed stations like units in Japan, NATO in Holland etc.

Ya, I didn't think about IMCOM and yes some special assignments as you listed don't deploy along with White House Communications Agency. While this isn't a 100% true, if you are in a tactical unit and in the battalion S6 shop as a 25B you are a CPN operator. While the 25U deal with the radios and 25Q/S/N deal with the STT. That would be your MTOE/TOE Job anyways.

JockVSJock wrote: »

Ah, that clears it up for me Tactical Vs Strategic status for that MOS.

I'll be able to give more info for the 25N MOS, because I'll be once here for the US Army.

Hope to hear more about it.



I also added a few more links.

2E151

Speaking from experience, 25S is probably one of the most lucrative decisions you can make going into the Army. It's hard to get a job coming out of the service as a network guy with only 4 or 6 years of experience; people want certifications to validate your experience. Most contracting and civil service won't give you an interview without some basic certs.

However, unless your a MIT graduate the only place your gonna get legitimate SATCOM experience is the military. Few colleges award degrees for Radio Frequency Transmissions and no major industry related certifications exist.

With five years experience as a 2E1X1 (Air Force SATCOM guy) in the Georgia National Guard I was able to get a good contracting job starting out somewhere around 60K.

Almost two years later I serve the Guard once a month building towards a retirement and healthcare when I retire and have an excellent contracting job during the week.

Joining the Air Force as a Satellite Communications tech was the best decision I ever made.

networker050184

2E151 wrote: »

Speaking from experience, 25S is probably one of the most lucrative decisions you can make going into the Army. It's hard to get a job coming out of the service as a network guy with only 4 or 6 years of experience; people want certifications to validate your experience. Most contracting and civil service won't give you an interview without some basic certs.

Easy fix, do your basic certifications while you are in! I never had a hard time finding work with my CCNA and military experience. There may be more people with network experience out there to compete against, but there are also more jobs available in that field.

2E151 wrote: »

However, unless your a MIT graduate the only place your gonna get legitimate SATCOM experience is the military. Few colleges award degrees for Radio Frequency Transmissions and no major industry related certifications exist.

With five years experience as a 2E1X1 (Air Force SATCOM guy) in the Georgia National Guard I was able to get a good contracting job starting out somewhere around 60K.

Almost two years later I serve the Guard once a month building towards a retirement and healthcare when I retire and have an excellent contracting job during the week.

Joining the Air Force as a Satellite Communications tech was the best decision I ever made.

I do agree that SATCOM is a great field to get into in the military. Its a good niche to get into, and as you say there aren't a lot of places to get the experience employers will be looking for. Most of the civilian support for the military SATCOM stuff is ex military that I've met. I'd never want to go back and support the military personally though.

SteveLord

2E151 wrote: »

Speaking from experience, 25S is probably one of the most lucrative decisions you can make going into the Army. It's hard to get a job coming out of the service as a network guy with only 4 or 6 years of experience; people want certifications to validate your experience. Most contracting and civil service won't give you an interview without some basic certs.

However, unless your a MIT graduate the only place your gonna get legitimate SATCOM experience is the military. Few colleges award degrees for Radio Frequency Transmissions and no major industry related certifications exist.

With five years experience as a 2E1X1 (Air Force SATCOM guy) in the Georgia National Guard I was able to get a good contracting job starting out somewhere around 60K.

Almost two years later I serve the Guard once a month building towards a retirement and healthcare when I retire and have an excellent contracting job during the week.

Joining the Air Force as a Satellite Communications tech was the best decision I ever made.

If I remember an old and mostly unknown benefit correctly, the military can reimburse you for up to $2000 a year for certifications.

And fwiw, my service helped me....and I was just a grunt.

iGlade21

Thank you for posting the information. I am thinking about joining the Army to become an officer. Do you guys know if there are IT related jobs for an officer? Thanks

2E151

iGlade21 wrote: »

Thank you for posting the information. I am thinking about joining the Army to become an officer. Do you guys know if there are IT related jobs for an officer? Thanks

If your wanting hands on the equipment then look becoming a Warrant Officer; commissioned officers in the Signal Corp mostly deal with managing the "big picture".

wastedtime

While 2E151 is mostly right, especially as they move towards General level officer. Although as a 25A you can go into a "Functional Area." This link will give you a little bit of information on the signal branch to include the Functional Areas of 25A: http://www.signal.army.mil/ocos/index.htm

SteveLord

Warrant is where it's at. But you need to get your feet wet for a few years in the military and REALLY know your IT stuff.

myedjo24

SteveLord wrote: »

Warrant is where it's at. But you need to get your feet wet for a few years in the military and REALLY know your IT stuff.

For me, it's all about the Benjamins, and warrant officers do not make as much as regular officers. However, I don't know how the Army works as far as warrant officers go, but if you were able to jump in as a warrant officer with out being enlisted first then the first 4 years isn't that much different than if you jumped in as an officer first. In the Marines, a person is enlisted for so many years (usually around 6- then a person puts in a package to be a warrant officer. So, that would be 6-8 years of enlisted pay, which is even more dismal than an officer. All in all, I would say if you wanted to make a career out of the military, officer is way more lucrative.

MrAgent

Here is a list of Army Officer Careers.

List of United States Army careers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Army Officers are not very technical at all. Its more project managment and leadership. The main IT position is the 25A, which is a Signal Officer.

I was thinking of doing a direct commission into the Army Reserve, as a Signal Officer, but changed my mind. Instead I will be applying for a direct commission into the Navy Reserve, I was prior enlisted, as IT Officer.

networker050184

myedjo24 wrote: »

For me, it's all about the Benjamins

Well you are looking at the wrong place if money is any kind of factor. No one in the military, officer or enlisted, gets paid very well.

networker050184

SteveLord wrote: »

Warrant is where it's at. But you need to get your feet wet for a few years in the military and REALLY know your IT stuff.

Yeah right. Out of the hundreds of warrants I worked with maybe two or three REALLY knew their stuff. Warrant is just like anything else in the military, look good on paper and you got it.

Thats not to say you won't get great training and a good position as a warrant, but you get out of it what you put in just like anything else.

MrAgent

networker050184 wrote: »

Well you are looking at the wrong place if money is any kind of factor. No one in the military, officer or enlisted, gets paid very well.

Officers in the DC area get paid pretty well at the upper levels. 04 and above.

SteveLord

networker050184 wrote: »

Well you are looking at the wrong place if money is any kind of factor. No one in the military, officer or enlisted, gets paid very well.

I disagree. This does not apply to all situations. With all the pay raises, bonuses, educational incentives and increased benefits over the last decade, its comparable more than ever. Housing allowance itself, is a decent chunk of one's military pay....and is not taxed. Full time Guard/Reserve positions are extremely competitive (this is a hard fact). And rarely have I seen anyone leave them. They are that way for a reason.

As with most government jobs, you typically have better benefits as opposed to extra cash typically found in the private sector.

networker050184

SteveLord wrote: »

I disagree. This does not apply to all situations. With all the pay raises, bonuses, educational incentives and increased benefits over the last decade, its comparable more than ever. Housing allowance itself, is a decent chunk of one's military pay....and is not taxed. Full time Guard/Reserve positions are extremely competitive (this is a hard fact). And rarely have I seen anyone leave them. They are that way for a reason.

As with most government jobs, you typically have better benefits as opposed to extra cash typically found in the private sector.

Yes you are compensated decently. I had no struggles while in, but its no secret that military pay is no where near the civilian equivalent. This is especially true for people that have highly transferable MOS skills. A cannon cocker doesn't exactly have the same transferable skills as someone working in IT though. So I can see how the pay may be more inline for some MOS than others.

You also have to look at the investment of basically every aspect of your life into the military. If a civilian employer wanted that kind of commitment and loyalty from their workers they would have to pay a lot more than the government shells out to service members that's for sure.

SteveLord

Right on. I think the longer you're in, the more that gap stretches. 10+ years of a skill in the military versus 10+ in the private sector (especially if it's the same job) can be radically different.

wastedtime

Just a bit of info to put out about Army and "Cyber" mission.

https://secureweb2.hqda.pentagon.mil/VDAS_ArmyPostureStatement/2011/information_papers/PostedDocument.asp?id=256

[FONT=&quot]Effective October 2011, the Army will stand up a Cyber Brigade to expand and enhance Army Cyber Command’s full spectrum cyber capability in support of USCYBERCOM operations.[/FONT]

https://secureweb2.hqda.pentagon.mil/VDAS_ArmyPostureStatement/2011/information_papers/PostedDocument.asp?id=266

[FONT=&quot]In October 2011, the Army will stand up a Cyber Brigade as ARCYBER’s operational arm for full-spectrum cyberspace operations. This organization will expand and enhance the Army’s cyberspace capability and capacity. To develop the requisite institutional foundation for Army cyberspace operations, ARCYBER will develop the Army Cyber Proponent to address doctrine, organization, training, materiel, leadership and education, personnel, and facilities issues related to Army cyberspace operations.[/FONT]

News and Events| MBA CSi

The INSCOM Commanding General (CG) has been tasked to establish an Army Cyber Brigade capable of conducting Computer Network Exploitation (CNE), Computer Network Attack (CNA), and enabling Dynamic Cyber Defense.

http://www.dami.army.pentagon.mil/site/G-2%20Vision/pod/IWS%20Brief.pdf