Wisconsin anyone?

erpadmin

unclerico wrote: »

These people all get paid with our tax dollars so I think we should have a say in what they can and can't do. Oh and the thinking that this outcome will all of the sudden make companies take away your vacations is
ridiculous. This has been a long time coming and I can't wait for it to go through. Fiscal sanity will be restored!

This is what's great about America...you are certainly free to run off at the mouth, and be completely wrong. Of course, I can say it's equally ridiculous to believe such an outcome can't happen with the removal of collective bargaining....and I will say so.

Be careful what you wish for, my friend...

eansdad

unclerico wrote: »

Im not one to be politically correct or very diplomatic so I'll just go ahead and say it: bust the unions and make them work like the rest of us. You people claim its the republicans that are schills for big business when in fact it is the opposite. There are plenty of large orgs that donate heavily to the dems. The reason that government workers should have no collective bargaining rights is because government is a monopoly. You, as a citizen, have no choice where to get your services from in your state. The trash that is public education in this country is a direct consequence of unionization. These people have no worries about getting fired for any reason short of killing a student. You've got teachers forcing their students to make signs to carry in a protest that they know nothing about and calling it a history lesson. On to pay and other compensation; the average public sector worker makes 50% more than the private sector guy doing the same job. Okay maybe not the same job because the private sector guy will do things out of his job description without fear of making the other guy look bad. These people all get paid with our tax dollars so I think we should have a say in what they can and can't do. Oh and the thinking that this outcome will all of the sudden make companies take away your vacations is
ridiculous. This has been a long time coming and I can't wait for it to go through. Fiscal sanity will be restored!

Sorry to burst your bubble but I get paid $15k less a year then I would in the private sector and I lost $10k/yr comming from a job with EDS. For my job discription of computer tech I have to pretty much manage 700 PCs, 50 switches, 3 servers, 120 staff and 1300 students. We recieve low pay, crappy health insurance, sure we get paid days (sick/vac/personal) but try to use them and you can be given an unpaid day or two off for abuse or fired. On top of this we get 0 training. I am going to college on my dime and taking certs on my dime. The only thing keeping me here is the fact that I have 7 yrs in (at 10 years I can take an early retirement and earn a huge sum of $400/mo) and I live 5 mins away. My wife who also woks here makes less then $20k/yr dealing with autistic elementry school kids as an aide and regularly has 2-3 of these kids at a time. She comes home with bites, bruises and scratchs and once had her arm pulled so hard that she lost feeling in it for a few days. But yeah I guess we have it great, we have non-civil service people hating us because they think we make the money that those people in the paper make and will have this huge pension when we retire. We have it great don't we.

There are rules and guidlines in place to fire civil service and teachers. No one ever uses them because if they did they would have to apply to rules fairly to everyone which would hit their friends and family members. Instead of fixing the corrupt mess that was created they would rather screw everyone expesially the little people who are the majority of those let go when ever "budget cuts" are made.

veritas_libertas

eMeS wrote: »

Actually this makes me want to buy you a beer even more....I'll bet you have some interesting stories to tell...

MS

My parents have much scarier stories than me, but I do have a few good ones...

eMeS

unclerico wrote: »

The reason that government workers should have no collective bargaining rights is because government is a monopoly. You, as a citizen, have no choice where to get your services from in your state.

I really don't get this. The Wis. governor claims that getting rid of collective bargaining is a budgetary issue, but so far has provided no evidence that eliminating collective bargaining addresses their budget deficit.

That doesn't seem to be your argument here at all. Government does have the power to enforce a monopoly, and in fact they are an effective monopoly for some services. I fail to see why that means that public sector employees should not have the right to collective bargaining?

If you're a private sector employee in any state then you have the right to collective bargaining. Why shouldn't public sector employees have the same right?

MS

SteveLord

eMeS wrote: »

I really don't get this. The Wis. governor claims that getting rid of collective bargaining is a budgetary issue, but so far has provided no evidence that eliminating collective bargaining addresses their budget deficit.

He isn't trying to get rid of it completely. They could still use it for wages. But they would need to pay more toward their pensions and health insurance. And police/firefighters/state patrol would be exempt.

eMeS

SteveLord wrote: »

He isn't trying to get rid of it completely. They could still use it for wages. But they would need to pay more toward their pensions and health insurance. And police/firefighters/state patrol would be exempt.

Actually it's only maintained for raises less than inflation.

I knew about the firefighter exemption, and I don't really understand why that group should be exempt.

IMO you have to separate the health insurance/pension part of this from collective bargaining, as a strong case has not been made that eliminating collective bargaining reduces the deficit.

MS

eansdad

Expecially since they (public sector unions) had already agreed to pay more for both health care and pensions. The big bad unions said we understand and we will give back ... what more do people want?

Megadeth4168

eansdad wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble but I get paid $15k less a year then I would in the private sector and I lost $10k/yr comming from a job with EDS. For my job discription of computer tech I have to pretty much manage 700 PCs, 50 switches, 3 servers, 120 staff and 1300 students. We recieve low pay, crappy health insurance, sure we get paid days (sick/vac/personal) but try to use them and you can be given an unpaid day or two off for abuse or fired. On top of this we get 0 training. I am going to college on my dime and taking certs on my dime. The only thing keeping me here is the fact that I have 7 yrs in (at 10 years I can take an early retirement and earn a huge sum of $400/mo) and I live 5 mins away. My wife who also woks here makes less then $20k/yr dealing with autistic elementry school kids as an aide and regularly has 2-3 of these kids at a time. She comes home with bites, bruises and scratchs and once had her arm pulled so hard that she lost feeling in it for a few days. But yeah I guess we have it great, we have non-civil service people hating us because they think we make the money that those people in the paper make and will have this huge pension when we retire. We have it great don't we.

Good post! I think there is a lot of misinformation about public sector employees. Certainly there are cases where there are overpaid/overcompensated public employees and certainly there are the stereotypical lazy public sector employees.

To add my own perspective to this, I am a network administrator for a municipality and have been with the organization for over 10 years. I support 150 users as well as routers, switches, firewalls, website, and several servers across 10 buildings. I've done all the comparables for both public and private sector positions in the area with similar skill sets and I can tell you that my $38k per year doesn't come close to what I could be making.

Like you, I stay where I'm at because I have 2 years left and I can be vested with a pension. Moreover, my benefits are enough right now to make my position a bit more competitive but I could still make more in the private sector even without my benefits.

erpadmin

SteveLord wrote: »

And police/firefighters/state patrol would be exempt.

Because as Christie (NJ's governor) has been following Wisconsin, Walker has been following him. Christie reneged on his promise to not touch police and fire and Walker did not want those guys being pissed at him too. He's going to need their support and will, of course get it.

Though, they too will experience that "gatt" move. Meaning that when it's politically easier, he will come back to them to to finish the job....count on it.

erpadmin

Megadeth4168 wrote: »

Like you, I stay where I'm at because I have 2 years left and I can be vested with a pension. Moreover, my benefits are enough right now to make my position a bit more competitive but I could still make more in the private sector even without my benefits.

I'm already "vested", and am now upping the ante to retire with medical. Only need 11 more years to do that. Add on another 10 to that, and I get the whole sha-bam. Though if I wanted to, I could leave with my vestment right now.

On top of my 5.5% I put in the pension, I used my union raises and steps to contribute to my 457(b) to maximize my contributions. It took a couple of years, but now I'm maxing out the legal amount ($16500). Since I've paid my car off, I now contribute to a Roth and for 2011 will be maxing out that too. I do this for many reasons (taxes, of course being one of them), but I know that social security will probably not exist when I retire. My pension and 457 will allow me to live comfortably, as if I was still working, and the Roth (since it doesn't get taxed after you turn 59.5) will be used to pay my quarterly, estimated taxes.

My retirement living will not all be taxpayer funded.....this is assuming I remain a state employee. Nothing is written in stone.

it_consultant

Megadeth4168 wrote: »

Good post! I think there is a lot of misinformation about public sector employees. Certainly there are cases where there are overpaid/overcompensated public employees and certainly there are the stereotypical lazy public sector employees.

To add my own perspective to this, I am a network administrator for a municipality and have been with the organization for over 10 years. I support 150 users as well as routers, switches, firewalls, website, and several servers across 10 buildings. I've done all the comparables for both public and private sector positions in the area with similar skill sets and I can tell you that my $38k per year doesn't come close to what I could be making.

Like you, I stay where I'm at because I have 2 years left and I can be vested with a pension. Moreover, my benefits are enough right now to make my position a bit more competitive but I could still make more in the private sector even without my benefits.

Surely your joking, 38K a year? Sheesh! I am sure eliminating your salary or collective bargaining rights (if you have any) will certainly close the budget gap in your state!

erpadmin

it_consultant wrote: »

Surely your joking, 38K a year? Sheesh! I am sure eliminating your salary or collective bargaining rights (if you have any) will certainly close the budget gap in your state!

You do realize he's in Detroit, right (well, in the Detroit area...I have yet to meet someone "from Detroit" that actually lived there and not surrounding areas, but perhaps MD will be the first...)? Cost of living isn't exactly high over there. Then again, jobs are not exactly plentiful over there either. $38k is a decent salary over there for what he does. If he wants to make more, he'd have to get out.

And you're forgetting the other side of the argument (that I'm obviously not a proponent of, but it still needs to be mentioned). He's not just getting $38k, but tens of thousands more for his other benefits, like health care, pension, and so forth. He pays whatever percentage, but so does his municipality, as well as a good portion of the health care premium.

it_consultant

erpadmin wrote: »

You do realize he's in Detroit, right (well, in the Detroit area...I have yet to meet someone "from Detroit" that actually lived there and not surrounding areas, but perhaps MD will be the first...)? Cost of living isn't exactly high over there. Then again, jobs are not exactly plentiful over there either. $38k is a decent salary over there for what he does. If he wants to make more, he'd have to get out.

And you're forgetting the other side of the argument (that I'm obviously not a proponent of, but it still needs to be mentioned). He's not just getting $38k, but tens of thousands more for his other benefits, like health care, pension, and so forth. He pays whatever percentage, but so does his municipality, as well as a good portion of the health care premium.

I didn't know where he was from, 38K is still really low in any part of this country. Of course his benefits package make him more expensive than 38K but will eliminating that really cause the budget deficits to close? Perhaps on the state and municipality level it will help a bit, but most of the problem with state budgets comes from mandatory spending and a poor tax structure that relies on property values.

On the one hand you don't want to raise taxes and cut state programs, but it is equally painful to cut salaries and benefits to workers who didn't do anything wrong. The core problem is that we depend too much on the employer (government and private) to provide health care and retirement. There is a reason why Canada has not been hit as hard by the recession AND much of the production of American cars happens in Canada now.

Megadeth4168

erpadmin wrote: »

You do realize he's in Detroit, right (well, in the Detroit area...I have yet to meet someone "from Detroit" that actually lived there and not surrounding areas, but perhaps MD will be the first...)? Cost of living isn't exactly high over there. Then again, jobs are not exactly plentiful over there either. $38k is a decent salary over there for what he does. If he wants to make more, he'd have to get out.

And you're forgetting the other side of the argument (that I'm obviously not a proponent of, but it still needs to be mentioned). He's not just getting $38k, but tens of thousands more for his other benefits, like health care, pension, and so forth. He pays whatever percentage, but so does his municipality, as well as a good portion of the health care premium.

You are right, I don't live in Detroit, I live in the Detroit Area. You are also correct in saying that my benefits do add a lot to my entire package. I would estimate my total compensation to be between 50-55k. That being said, I've tested the waters and I've been on a few interviews in the past year (even one coming up tomorrow) and they all have been for $60K plus positions. I've come in the top 2 for 3 of the interviews. I always figured I would get vested and then leave. I might leave before then if I land the job tomorrow.

I do have to point out that $38k take home pay (before taxes) is not a lot when you are the only provider for your family. My wife and I just had our second daughter in July and since then my wife hasn't been working. It's been tough. Unfortunately I bought my house a couple years too early (before the bubble burst) and so my cost of living is higher than any new neighbors moving into the neighborhood. My house used to be worth 150k and is not assessed in the 70K range. So there are a lot of considerations when talking about cost of living that need to be taken into account. That's why I'm back in school to finish my bachelors so I can advance my career to the next step.

Good post erpadmin.

uhtrinity

eMeS wrote: »

I really don't get this. The Wis. governor claims that getting rid of collective bargaining is a budgetary issue, but so far has provided no evidence that eliminating collective bargaining addresses their budget deficit.

That doesn't seem to be your argument here at all. Government does have the power to enforce a monopoly, and in fact they are an effective monopoly for some services. I fail to see why that means that public sector employees should not have the right to collective bargaining?

If you're a private sector employee in any state then you have the right to collective bargaining. Why shouldn't public sector employees have the same right?

MS

If you listen to the phone call with the "Fake Koch Brother" he shares that he is looking for his "Reagan moment" to break the unions. It isn't about budgets, just making a political statement and changing the political landscape.
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/scott-walker-koch-brother-crank-call-wisconsin

veritas_libertas

uhtrinity wrote: »

If you listen to the phone call with the "Fake Koch Brother" he shares that he is looking for his "Reagan moment" to break the unions. It isn't about budgets, just making a political statement and changing the political landscape.
Did Scott Walker Get Crank-Call Pwned? (AUDIO) UPDATE: YES | Mother Jones

Quoting from MotherJones? I wasn't going to comment again but you made me laugh...

eansdad

Erp - Also remember that here in NJ very few if any part of government is putting their share of the pension into the pot. Also we are in the contract negotiations and they are trying to take away our workers comp and give us the 2% it would "save" them. We are not eligable for state workers comp so we would have to provide for our own costing us more then the 2% we would recieve as a raise. Along with this we give 1/2% of our salaries for continued education which they also want to give us in order to "save" money. So they give us a 2.5% raise and we now have to pay for our workers comp and don't get the 6 credits a semester reimbursment. These are the things that collective bargining and our union is trying to stop. We aren't asking for huge raises and not have to pay for health care. They aren't saving any money by giving us the mony instead of using it on works comp insurance and how good are employees that don't want to better themselves (remember this is a school district that doesn't want the non-teacher workers to become more educated).

I don't know...maybe I'm just greedy. Sure I made slightly less then $55k last year but almost 1/3rd of it was OT. Not because I wanted it but because they don't want to hire enough people to do the job and they want things done NOW. Maybe I'm greedy because I think our health/dental should be better then those on public assistance? Starting this year I lose $6k because of Chritie's new rules on health care. Since my wife and I both work for the district one of us can not **** the health benifits and collect what used to be 30% of the cost of the package. Those numbers have changed to 25% or $5k which ever is less and with both of us eligable for the system neither of us can collect but private sector it doesn't matter. I don't get bonuses, I don't get raises or promotions after completing certifications or degrees or college credit. Public service haters need to take a hard look at the real working class and see that these attacks hurt people who are like you. Most of us don't make 6 figures with months of paid time off and expense accounts. We are middle class and lower middle class people struggling with our bills and worring about our futures just like everyone else.

For the record I am not Republican, I am not Democrat, Socialist or Tea-Party. I think politics is getting in the way of the greater good of the people. George Washington saw this comming and tried to warn us "Beware the two-party system". We have a nation full of reds and blues instead of Americans and it is sad to see people turning on people because of jealousy and greed caused by the very same people who are starting these fights.

uhtrinity

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Quoting from MotherJones? I wasn't going to comment again but you made me laugh...

Here is the direct link to the first half http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4

Regardless of the source of the article, they link to a youtube video where a DJ pranked a call to the Governor pretending to be one of the Koch Brothers. The Governor thinking he was talking to one of the Koch brothers was rather candid in his views and spilled his strategy for the near future. The Governor himself said:

1. This is his Reagan moment, chance to make a statement and break the unions

2. He wouldn't be against laying off thousands of state workers as a tool to get the Dems to vote

3. That he was for using trouble makers to make the protesters look bad with the exception of it backfiring on him

It came right from his own mouth.

veritas_libertas

I was certainly not arguing that it didn't happen, just found it funny that you used that source to quote from. If I had used FoxNews I would never have heard the end of it... (I'm not a big fan of Fox by the way)

msteinhilber

It's somewhat ironic how one side is shocked about what the politician on the other side has done or is willing to do to get their way when things like this prank call come to the surface. It's politics folks... and politicians generally speaking care about money and power first and foremost, regardless of which party they come from. I bet a lot of you really think there's such thing as a two party system too :P

SteveLord

veritas_libertas wrote: »

I was certainly not arguing that it didn't happen, just found it funny that you used that source to quote from. If I had used FoxNews I would never have heard the end of it... (I'm not a big fan of Fox by the way)

Exactly. We can nitpick all day long about the network it comes from can't we?

erpadmin

eansdad wrote: »

Erp - Also remember that here in NJ very few if any part of government is putting their share of the pension into the pot. Also we are in the contract negotiations and they are trying to take away our workers comp and give us the 2% it would "save" them. We are not eligable for state workers comp so we would have to provide for our own costing us more then the 2% we would recieve as a raise. Along with this we give 1/2% of our salaries for continued education which they also want to give us in order to "save" money. So they give us a 2.5% raise and we now have to pay for our workers comp and don't get the 6 credits a semester reimbursment. These are the things that collective bargining and our union is trying to stop. We aren't asking for huge raises and not have to pay for health care. They aren't saving any money by giving us the mony instead of using it on works comp insurance and how good are employees that don't want to better themselves (remember this is a school district that doesn't want the non-teacher workers to become more educated).

I don't know...maybe I'm just greedy. Sure I made slightly less then $55k last year but almost 1/3rd of it was OT. Not because I wanted it but because they don't want to hire enough people to do the job and they want things done NOW. Maybe I'm greedy because I think our health/dental should be better then those on public assistance? Starting this year I lose $6k because of Chritie's new rules on health care. Since my wife and I both work for the district one of us can not **** the health benifits and collect what used to be 30% of the cost of the package. Those numbers have changed to 25% or $5k which ever is less and with both of us eligable for the system neither of us can collect but private sector it doesn't matter. I don't get bonuses, I don't get raises or promotions after completing certifications or degrees or college credit. Public service haters need to take a hard look at the real working class and see that these attacks hurt people who are like you. Most of us don't make 6 figures with months of paid time off and expense accounts. We are middle class and lower middle class people struggling with our bills and worring about our futures just like everyone else.

For the record I am not Republican, I am not Democrat, Socialist or Tea-Party. I think politics is getting in the way of the greater good of the people. George Washington saw this comming and tried to warn us "Beware the two-party system". We have a nation full of reds and blues instead of Americans and it is sad to see people turning on people because of jealousy and greed caused by the very same people who are starting these fights.

Eansdad, I'm very much aware that NJ hasn't paid into the pot since Whitman. Whitman started raiding the kitty, and then McG**(e)vey, followed by Corzine, then Christie. Yeah, we just had a vote where the state allegedly can't do that anymore, but it's all a bunch of crap.

Municipalities, School Districts vary from different state agencies. My union is CWA, and hence whatever deal happens in Trenton will effect me too. The state universities are trying to end and civil service so that we'd end up like management and be subject to contract pay. This will make it a lot easier for someone's son, daughter, niece or nephew to get a job if civil service is banned. Nepotism DOES still happen in the public sector, but it would be much more rampant if civil service was done away with.

Also, even in NJ, things are very different between North, Central and South Jersey, even within the public sector.

Your other points are very valid though, there are alot of administrators/managers/principals who get these ridiculous six-figure salaries and Crackberries, yet folks are pissed that I have a P.O.S dumbphone and no car?! It's very laughable indeed.

ED, you also remind me make this point to everyone else: if you're gonna listen to Rush, Mark Levin, Hannity, and other right-wingers, at least understand the other side of the argument to make an informed decision, instead of just trying to add to Fox's sound bites.....

ericcumbee

erpadmin wrote: »

My union is CWA, and hence whatever deal happens in Trenton will effect me too.

a friend of mine was attacked by a CWA member protesting outside of her office yesterday.

erpadmin

ericcumbee wrote: »

a friend of mine was attacked by a CWA member protesting outside of her office yesterday.

Well....it definitely wasn't me. I have never been to a rally. I just pay my dues and vote.

I hope you won't make blanket generalizations about me just because of someone acted like a moron.

ericcumbee

erpadmin wrote: »

Well....it definitely wasn't me. I have never been to a rally. I just pay my dues and vote.

I hope you won't make blanket generalizations about me just because of someone acted like a moron.

of course not, it was pretty obvious that the guy in that video was an extreme partisan.

erpadmin

ericcumbee wrote: »

of course not, it was pretty obvious that the guy in that video was an extreme partisan.

I find it hard to be partisan when my money is on the line. That's what makes me an independent; I vote according to my own interests.

Even if you HAVE to call yourself something, chances are most folks lean more toward the center than full blown party loyalist; that I can never be.

Balantine

eMeS wrote: »

Yep, good example of a corporation that is way out of control.

Here's the thing...We're all free to vote with our dollars, and in this case I do.

I still don't understand why the Republicans would specifically target huge groups of people who are very likely to vote.

MS

I have WI family and friends who have been public-sector teachers for over 30 years.

They will tell you that the unions are bad and good for a couple of reasons.

The main argument against government unions is that 1) government should not be allowed to fail and public unions can facilitate strikes which can shutdown services for the entire country and 2) unions have a seat at both sides of the bargaining table.

What does that mean? The state of WI automatically deducts union fees from paychecks and gives them to unions... then the union leaders go and contribute to politicians --- the politicians represent the accountability of taxpayers and the state on the other side of the bargaining table. Government-employee unions can easily force elected officials to raise taxes to meet their "demands," so it is they, not the voters, who control the rate of taxation within a political jurisdiction. This could be considered a form of taxation without representation.

As for why Republicans target huge groups of people...the class warfare argument is pretty valid.

The GOP's budgets are full of junk math and their media is full of ****; their polls and talking heads have seized on this idea that "public employees make more than their private counterparts" - which is blatantly false. Public employees, when education and experience is considered make 5-10% LESS. [http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6759/] The effect is to make these unions victims of their own success and, in a bit of political jiujitsu, use their ability to secure relatively modest salary and benefit packages for their members as the primary argument against them. This is temptingly simple for a disgruntled American stuck at the bottom of the economic ladder to believe.

You have to ask yourself how it is that poor and middle-class folks willingly engage in internecine class warfare against one another, with one side essentially acting as a cat’s paw for mega-wealthy conservatives intent on undermining every worker protection in existence.

Kinda reminds me of prison psychology where the different races are pitted against eachother so they are less of a threat to the guards.


Re: corporations -- They don't get taxed because they don't bring their money into the USA. The USA has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. But it doesn't work! The tax code is Byzantine. Microsoft recently took out a 2.6 billion dollar unsecured loan. Why would a 40 billion dollar (in loose cash) company do something like that? Because their money is tied up, even though on the books it says they have tons of cash.

Pretty much tax evasion. That's a nice "feature" of our "operating system" -- Capitalism eh! This is why people say the Supreme Court decison last Feb. recognizing corporations as persons with First Amendment rights was the left hook to our democracy, Guv Wanker (who slashed corporate tax rates and ginned up this budget crisis) is the right... and we're all on the ropes.

The Breakdown: Why Aren't Corporations Paying Their Taxes? | The Nation

eansdad

The 1st is easy to fix, like 30 other states including NJ public employees can not strike. Seems simple enough. The 2 sides can't agree they go to arbitration and that is that.

An interesting article I read about the pension system. Fits with your article about public sector pay.