Is $300 a good price for a HP XW6400 Quad-Core, 2x Dual Core Xeon 3.0GHz, 4GB, 160GB

certhelp

I am thinking of buying a workstation for hyper-v server. Is a HP XW6400 worth 300 (specs in the title)?

Hypntick

The price seems okay but you'll want to beef up the RAM quite a bit depending on how many clients you want to run. I'm currently working with 8GB myself and running into issues from time to time. Then again this is on vmware on a Win 7 ultimate install, it's a bit of a memory hog.

certhelp

Hypntick wrote: »

The price seems okay but you'll want to beef up the RAM quite a bit depending on how many clients you want to run. I'm currently working with 8GB myself and running into issues from time to time. Then again this is on vmware on a Win 7 ultimate install, it's a bit of a memory hog.

How many VMs are running when running into issues?

Devilsbane

certhelp wrote: »

I am thinking of buying a workstation for hyper-v server. Is a HP XW6400 worth 300 (specs in the title)?

Where is this deal at, I'd like to take a look.

Hypntick

certhelp wrote: »

How many VMs are running when running into issues?

I start getting slowdown at around 6 or so. I can run 7 but then again I know part of my issue is my CPU. I generally don't have to run that many for study purposes, but I have read a few lab examples where that number and higher are reqired. I would go for 12-16 GB just to be safe and allow you to do everything that you'd need to do.

certhelp

Devilsbane wrote: »

Where is this deal at, I'd like to take a look.

How do I know you won't outbid me. Just kidding

It's similar to this eBay item but on craigslist.

Full Specs:

• 2x Xeon 5160 Dual Core 3.0GHz (Quad Core)
  
• 4GB RAM PC2-5300 ECC Buffered
  
• 160GB SATA 10K HDD
  
• Nvidia Quadro NVS 290

To upgrade to even 8GB will probably needs another $100.

certhelp

Hypntick wrote: »

I start getting slowdown at around 6 or so. I can run 7 but then again I know part of my issue is my CPU. I generally don't have to run that many for study purposes, but I have read a few lab examples where that number and higher are reqired. I would go for 12-16 GB just to be safe and allow you to do everything that you'd need to do.

Doubt I will be able to run even 6 VMS concurrently on this HP xw6400.

petedude

certhelp wrote: »

Doubt I will be able to run even 6 VMS concurrently on this HP xw6400.

Skimp when allocating memory, if you have to. I've been able to get basic Win2008 VMs set up in 1GB or less. . . carefully.

MentholMoose

The price seems reasonable for what you get, however I see the following downsides:
1. No warranty (probably)
2. Expensive to upgrade (requires server CPUs and RAM)
3. Old technology (worse performance and higher power utilization than current hardware)

Four CPU cores is good for labbing so you probably won't need to upgrade processors, but if you are going to be using VMs, you simply need more than 4GB of RAM. This is especially true if you run Hyper-V and your host eats up 2GB (or more), since you'd be limited to running only two VMs with 1GB RAM.

That HP takes four FB-DIMMs, so if the existing 4GB RAM is 4x 1GB FB-DIMMs, upgrading to 8GB (4x 2GB) will require replacing the RAM outright, and that RAM is pricey... 8GB (4x 2GB) is about $220 on Newegg, and 16GB (4x 4GB) is about double.

By comparison, a new desktop with a quad core CPU and 8GB of DDR3 RAM will cost $600 or so. If you get one that supports 16GB of RAM, that is a viable upgrade since 16GB of desktop-grade DDR3 (4x 4GB) is only $160 on Newegg.

If you plan on using it a lot, you will recover the cost within a few months just from the power savings. Old servers really suck up the juice... when I did my VCP with a home lab consisting of three circa 2006 servers, my power bill went up about $100/month, and I wasn't running them 24/7, and it was winter so I didn't have to run the A/C to cool them (on the plus side, old servers can double as space heaters ).

certhelp

MentholMoose wrote: »

The price seems reasonable for what you get, however I see the following downsides:
1. No warranty (probably)
2. Expensive to upgrade (requires server CPUs and RAM)
3. Old technology (worse performance and higher power utilization than current hardware)

Four CPU cores is good for labbing so you probably won't need to upgrade processors, but if you are going to be using VMs, you simply need more than 4GB of RAM. This is especially true if you run Hyper-V and your host eats up 2GB (or more), since you'd be limited to running only two VMs with 1GB RAM.

That HP takes four FB-DIMMs, so if the existing 4GB RAM is 4x 1GB FB-DIMMs, upgrading to 8GB (4x 2GB) will require replacing the RAM outright, and that RAM is pricey... 8GB (4x 2GB) is about $220 on Newegg, and 16GB (4x 4GB) is about double.

By comparison, a new desktop with a quad core CPU and 8GB of DDR3 RAM will cost $600 or so. If you get one that supports 16GB of RAM, that is a viable upgrade since 16GB of desktop-grade DDR3 (4x 4GB) is only $160 on Newegg.

If you plan on using it a lot, you will recover the cost within a few months just from the power savings. Old servers really suck up the juice... when I did my VCP with a home lab consisting of three circa 2006 servers, my power bill went up about $100/month, and I wasn't running them 24/7, and it was winter so I didn't have to run the A/C to cool them (on the plus side, old servers can double as space heaters ).

I see that HP xw6400 is a 2008 release. So, not so old. It has 575Watt power supply. A Dell T3400 has only 375Watt power supply with option to upgrade to 575watt.

On eBay I see 8GB ECC RAM for about $100. 16GB is probably more than $200.

I also looked at business models like Dell Optiplex 745/755. They go about the same or few bucks less. I think they only support 8GB max RAM, I think. I am afraid of incompatibility of components for virtualization.

Which new desktops models do you suggest I look into?

certhelp

Is Dell Precision T3400 @ $500 a better option than HP xw6400? Specs:

- Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz Processor
- 80GB SATA Hard Drive
- 250GB SATA Drive
- 4GB RAM

QHalo

Take a look at the HP ML110 G6's. They're decent and new. I was looking at them for my VCP studying, but I'm going to build some smaller machines instead.

MentholMoose

certhelp wrote: »

I see that HP xw6400 is a 2008 release. So, not so old.

Well the HP site, HP xw6400 Workstation overview, says 2006:

The HP xw6400 (available Q3, 2006) is distinguished by what has been taken away - size, power demands, heat and noise - making this new mid-range workstation the ideal solution for space and power constrained environments.

Regardless of the manufacture date, it uses Xeon 5100 and 5300 series CPUs, which were released in 2006 and are several generations behind. They are the MP version of the first generation of Core-based Xeons, so while they are much, much better than previous generations, they are still power hungry compared to the latest CPUs (at least that is my experience, my home lab servers have the same generation of CPU, though they are the UP version so X3200 series).

certhelp wrote: »

On eBay I see 8GB ECC RAM for about $100. 16GB is probably more than $200.

Are they FB-DIMMs? Regular ECC DIMMs won't work. The prices I mentioned are from Newegg.

certhelp wrote: »

I also looked at business models like Dell Optiplex 745/755. They go about the same or few bucks less. I think they only support 8GB max RAM, I think. I am afraid of incompatibility of components for virtualization.

Which new desktops models do you suggest I look into?

You are definitely right to be concerned about compatibility issues, but mainly you just need to check the CPU model. Hyper-V has the most demanding CPU compatibility requirements, it requires a 64-bit CPU with virtualization extensions (Intel VT or AMD-V) and DEP. You can check the CPU features on the Intel website, but a nice resource is actually Wikipedia, e.g.:
List of Intel Xeon microprocessors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My test lab at my previous job consisted of Optiplex 745 desktops, which was fine as long as the CPU had the right features. I actually had access to 755s as well, but they happened to be configured with incompatible CPUs, so I stuck with the 745s. The main disadvantage is that they use DDR2, which is more expensive than DDR3, and I think you're right that they max out at 8GB.

Anyway, I think the xw6400 is fine, I just wanted to let you know of the possible issues.

certhelp wrote: »

Is Dell Precision T3400 @ $500 a better option than HP xw6400? Specs:

- Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz Processor
- 80GB SATA Hard Drive
- 250GB SATA Drive
- 4GB RAM

I think it's worse than the xw6400. The CPU is from the same generation, and it has the same amount of RAM, and even with a second hard drive the extra $200 isn't justified. My main recommendation would be to try to find something that supports DDR3 RAM since it's so cheap, maybe something like this:
Newegg.com - Recertified: Gateway DX Series DX4320-02e Phenom II X4 820(2.8GHz) 6GB DDR3 640GB HDD Capacity ATI Radeon HD 4250 Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

It comes with 6GB DDR3 RAM and can be upgraded to 8GB for cheap. It uses an AMD processor so there are no compatibility concerns (basically every AMD CPU from the last 6-7 years has AMD64, AMD-V, and DEP). I'm not suggesting you buy this one since I'm not really familiar with Gateway, but the specs look OK (besides that it maxes out at 8GB, personally I'd prefer the option to go to 16GB).

certhelp

QHalo wrote: »

Take a look at the HP ML110 G6's. They're decent and new. I was looking at them for my VCP studying, but I'm going to build some smaller machines instead.

I have some servers though older. But they are bulky, big, and noisy. I was looking at workstations for this reason. I need to get rid of old servers too. Anyone want a Dell PowerEdge 1800 or a PowerEdge SC1420?

certhelp

QHalo wrote: »

Take a look at the HP ML110 G6's. They're decent and new. I was looking at them for my VCP studying, but I'm going to build some smaller machines instead.

Interesting they are going for around $500 w 1GB RAM, i3 processor. To upgrade to 16GB ECC would probably be at least $300.

Also noticed the dimensions (HxWXD) of 14.38 x 6.9 x 16.8 in are smaller than usual servers.

QHalo

They don't run on ECC though.

certhelp

QHalo wrote: »

They don't run on ECC though.

Assuming you mean ML110s,

from the QuickSpecs doc on the top of page 3:

Memory Type: PC3-10600E unbuffered DDR3 ECC up to 1333MHz
DIMM Slots: Total 4 DIMM slots
Standard: 2GB (1x2GB) or 4GB (2x2GB)
Maximum: 16GB

Or do you mean XW6400?

QHalo

Looks like you're right. I didn't see ECC on HP's quick specs config. Good catch.

gateway

Do you really need ECC for a home lab (assuming it is for home lab use)?
I have an ML115 quad-core opteron with esxi installed. I have 8gb corsair non-ecc ram. I can't really see the point in the extra price overhead for ECC for home lab use. But yes - I can see why people recommend 16gb

certhelp

gateway wrote: »

Do you really need ECC for a home lab (assuming it is for home lab use)?
I have an ML115 quad-core opteron with esxi installed. I have 8gb corsair non-ecc ram. I can't really see the point in the extra price overhead for ECC for home lab use. But yes - I can see why people recommend 16gb

Yeah that is the point we are discussing really. MenthalMoose has said in hist post to go with DDR3 over DDr2 for price reasons. QHalo suggested ML110 G6 which has DDR3 support but with ECC which negates the advantage of cheaper DDR3!

gateway

certhelp wrote: »

Yeah that is the point we are discussing really. MenthalMoose has said in hist post to go with DDR3 over DDr2 for price reasons. QHalo suggested ML110 G6 which has DDR3 support but with ECC which defeats the advantage of cheaper DDR3!

Lol. Serves me right for not reading it properly
Time to upgrade my eyes to DDR3.

nimrod.sixty9

Hypntick wrote: »

I start getting slowdown at around 6 or so. I can run 7 but then again I know part of my issue is my CPU. I generally don't have to run that many for study purposes, but I have read a few lab examples where that number and higher are reqired. I would go for 12-16 GB just to be safe and allow you to do everything that you'd need to do.

Impressive. Our DL360 fell flat on its face (ESX4) with just 3 VM's with 8GB. The heaviest load was WSUS lol. Got her 20gigs and now it running great with a few more VMs (without issue).

certhelp

QHalo wrote: »

Looks like you're right. I didn't see ECC on HP's quick specs config. Good catch.

From Crucial Memory Advisor results page for HP XW6400 (or any other for that matter)

Q: Does my computer support ECC memory?
A: Yes.
Your system supports ECC. You can put non-ECC modules into an ECC system, but be sure not to mix ECC and non-ECC modules within a system. Install the same type of modules that are already in your system.

So you can install non-ECC memory in a system that supports ECC? Has anyone any experience with it?

certhelp

certhelp wrote: »

So you can install non-ECC memory in a system that supports ECC? Has anyone any experience with it?

Anyone?

certhelp

To answer my own question:
I tried installing non-ECC RAM into xw6400 which accepts ECC FB DIMMs and the non-ECC DIMM wouldn't go into the memory slots becuase the central grove is in a different position.

MentholMoose

The xw6400 requires FB-DIMMs, so anything else won't even fit. Anyway I guess you bought it already, but I saw a decent deal on a Dell Optiplex 380.
Dell Optiplex 380 Desktop Intel Dual-Core 3.2GHz (4GB/250GB/Win7 Pro) $304 Free Shipping Deal - Reviews and Compare Prices

Upgrading it to a VT-capable processor and 4GB RAM is still under $400, and it has a 3-year warranty.

certhelp

MentholMoose wrote: »

The xw6400 requires FB-DIMMs, so anything else won't even fit. Anyway I guess you bought it already, but I saw a decent deal on a Dell Optiplex 380.
Dell Optiplex 380 Desktop Intel Dual-Core 3.2GHz (4GB/250GB/Win7 Pro) $304 Free Shipping Deal - Reviews and Compare Prices

Upgrading it to a VT-capable processor and 4GB RAM is still under $400, and it has a 3-year warranty.

Yes thats the problem with some business grade workstations. Some need ECC and fully buffered DIMMs.

I think Optiplex 380 supports only upto 8GB. So, can probably run 5 VMs at the most. I am not sure if any of the available CPU upgrades (Core 2 Duos) support VT-X. But, since the motherboard is LGA -775, it can probably support Quad core CPUs which are definitely VT capable. But, the price goes up.

MenthalMoose, are you running Hyper-V VMs or other Virtualization software? What are you doing at 4:00 AM awake?


Anyone have spare ECC FB DIMMs laying around?

MentholMoose

certhelp wrote: »

I think Optiplex 380 supports only upto 8GB. So, can probably run 5 VMs at the most. I am not sure if any of the available CPU upgrades (Core 2 Duos) support VT-X. But, since the motherboard is LGA -775, it can probably support Quad core CPUs which are definitely VT capable. But, the price goes up.

The website actually says which CPU upgrades are VT capable. I configured it with a VT-capable CPU (Core 2 Duo E7500) and 4GB RAM and the cost was under $400... upgrading to 8GB RAM from Dell was obscenely expensive, so I'd recommend getting some third party RAM for a reasonable price.

certhelp wrote: »

MenthalMoose, are you running Hyper-V VMs or other Virtualization software?

Lately I mostly use my laptop (Thinkpad T510, 8GB RAM, Core i5) with VirtualBox. The 8GB of RAM is not too limiting since I have an SSD installed, so I can run VMs with low memory with minimal performance hit. I also run VMware Workstation on a custom built desktop with Core 2 Quad and 8GB RAM, but no SSD (only RAID 10 array with 4x 7200 RPM SATA disks) so performance is worse and therefore I don't use it as much. Either of these are good for building fairly complicated lab environments for various servers and applications. For more complex environments, I have some custom built servers (8GB RAM, Core 2 Quad CPU), connected to a managed switch, that I can install any hypervisor on (currently vSphere).

certhelp wrote: »

What are you doing at 4:00 AM awake?

It was only 1AM my time, so not that late.

certhelp

MentholMoose wrote: »

The website actually says which CPU upgrades are VT capable. I configured it with a VT-capable CPU (Core 2 Duo E7500) and 4GB RAM and the cost was under $400... upgrading to 8GB RAM from Dell was obscenely expensive, so I'd recommend getting some third party RAM for a reasonable price.

Thanks MenthalMoose, I have my Hyper-V server setup on HP xw6400 with 16GB RAM. Now I need to get motivated to lab and practice now that I can run 5 VMs without much effort. I spent about $460 total ($275 for computer + $184 for 16GB RAM) and have an extra 4GB DDR2-668 DIMM. Bought 4 modules @ 45 a piece thinking there could be incompatibility. Still my goal of building a workstation/server under $500.

MentholMoose wrote: »

Lately I mostly use my laptop (Thinkpad T510, 8GB RAM, Core i5) with VirtualBox. The 8GB of RAM is not too limiting since I have an SSD installed, so I can run VMs with low memory with minimal performance hit. I also run VMware Workstation on a custom built desktop with Core 2 Quad and 8GB RAM, but no SSD (only RAID 10 array with 4x 7200 RPM SATA disks) so performance is worse and therefore I don't use it as much. Either of these are good for building fairly complicated lab environments for various servers and applications. For more complex environments, I have some custom built servers (8GB RAM, Core 2 Quad CPU), connected to a managed switch, that I can install any hypervisor on (currently vSphere).

My Latitude E6400 with P8600 Core2 Duo 4GB RAM runs slow when I run 2 VMs under VMware workstation. I just saw on Lenovo.com refurbished Lenovo Thinkpad T410s are available for $760+. Very tempting.