1760-V vs 2600XM for Lab

MichaelCook

I have searched the forums and I was unable to find a comparison like this so I was hoping someone could address for me. The 1760-V tends to be cheaper on Ebay, as far as I can see. Is there any benefit of using the 2600XM series over the 1760-V or visa versa? As far as I can tell the 2600s with upgraded BootRom can handle more RAM (256 vs 128 ) but less flash (48 vs 64).

chmorin

MichaelCook wrote: »

I have searched the forums and I was unable to find a comparison like this so I was hoping someone could address for me. The 1760-V tends to be cheaper on Ebay, as far as I can see. Is there any benefit of using the 2600XM series over the 1760-V or visa versa? As far as I can tell the 2600s with upgraded BootRom can handle more RAM (256 vs 128 ) but less flash (48 vs 64).

I can't speak for the 2600XM, but I own and use my 1760V all the time and have found little (if any) functions it is not able to use. Once I got GNS3 configured and working properly for me I have not had much of a need to buy more routing equipment though.

Hope that helps.

MichaelCook

Thanks it does help. I have GNS3 set up with multisite routers. I have CUCM 7 vmware server and I have softphones ringing. I wanted to add some CME in the BR sites and also introduce a physical voice-capable router to the equation to test PSTN connectivity. I was going to go with a 1760-V with maxed flash/ram and a 2-FXO.

If the 1760-V has worked for you then I cant see it not being enough for me. Thanks.

mikej412

The 1760 can has use VWICs and has slots on the motherboard for PVDMs.

The 2600XM would need an NM and/or AIM to support VWICs and provide DSPs.

If you're doing voice, you can probably get 2 1760s for the price of 1 2600XM and save some money -- but the 2600XM can be twice as fast (265[01]XM).

skinsFan202

one quick note is that the 1760-Vs are unable to function as gatekeepers

shodown

skinsFan202 wrote: »

one quick note is that the 1760-Vs are unable to function as gatekeepers

But you can get a 2610 off ebay for a few bucks and get the correct IOS on there and configure it as a gatekeeper

MichaelCook

Thanks for the replies. I never knew about the GK not being supported on the 1760s. Any value in the 3600 series? I haven't seen much on these in the lab setup posts.

tokhss

If your going to go 3600.. might as well do 37xx.. cheap and great for lab and tonz of expansions.

just picked up the 3745 the other night.

hermeszdata

tokhss wrote: »

If your going to go 3600.. might as well do 37xx.. cheap and great for lab and tonz of expansions.

just picked up the 3745 the other night.

I agree. I picked up a 3745 the end of January. it came with na NM-HD-2VE w/ 2 VWIC-2MFT-T1 and 3 WIC-1DSU-T1-V2 cards. I only paid $300 delivered (Buy it Now from eBay)! Th PS died a week after arrival (sh&T happens), the replacement PS cost $60. Even with the extra expense of the replacement PS, I paid less for the router with module and VWICs than I would have buying just the NM-HD-2VE and the 2 VWIC-MFT-T1 cards seperately (without the router).

The 3745 now servers multi functions as a permenant part of the LAB

• PSTN simulator serving 4 branch offices
• Frame Relay Switch - NM-8A/S (only 4 in use now)
• Access Server - NM-16A (12 of the 16 ports actively used between my lab equipment and the routers/switches in my home/office network)

The 3745 actually uses less power than the 3640s I had at one time and is much quieter than the 3640 (but who can tell the difference when everything is fired up. Sounds like a Jet Engine test facility even with the cabinet doors closed!)

MichaelCook

Thanks for the replies concerning the 3725s. I will add these to my searchings. What is killing me right now is the shipping. I am in Canada and I am finding 1760 for dirt cheap but the cost is almost double with shipping. Not many sellers from canada unfortunately.

skinsFan202

hermeszdata wrote: »

I agree. I picked up a 3745 the end of January. it came with na NM-HD-2VE w/ 2 VWIC-2MFT-T1 and 3 WIC-1DSU-T1-V2 cards. I only paid $300 delivered (Buy it Now from eBay)! Th PS died a week after arrival (sh&T happens), the replacement PS cost $60. Even with the extra expense of the replacement PS, I paid less for the router with module and VWICs than I would have buying just the NM-HD-2VE and the 2 VWIC-MFT-T1 cards seperately (without the router).

The 3745 now servers multi functions as a permenant part of the LAB

• PSTN simulator serving 4 branch offices
• Frame Relay Switch - NM-8A/S (only 4 in use now)
• Access Server - NM-16A (12 of the 16 ports actively used between my lab equipment and the routers/switches in my home/office network)

The 3745 actually uses less power than the 3640s I had at one time and is much quieter than the 3640 (but who can tell the difference when everything is fired up. Sounds like a Jet Engine test facility even with the cabinet doors closed!)

very nice. I was unaware you could use a 3745 for so many different functions at the same time. Might I ask what you're using for your HQ & Branches? 2801s?

MichaelCook

A couple other questions that will expose how very new I am to this voice world If anyone can help that would be great.

1. Where would the Gatekeeper sit in my enviro? Sounds like it would need to be in the same LAN as the devices it was controlling. Is this an H323 Gatekeeper?
2. Would the normal way of connecting my HQ to my branches be via frame relay?

hermeszdata

MichaelCook wrote: »

A couple other questions that will expose how very new I am to this voice world If anyone can help that would be great.

1. Where would the Gatekeeper sit in my enviro? Sounds like it would need to be in the same LAN as the devices it was controlling. Is this an H323 Gatekeeper?
2. Would the normal way of connecting my HQ to my branches be via frame relay?

1. The gatekeeper can be anywhere including the great abyss of the WWW.
2. As in life, there is no Normal. In the real world, the connection between HQ and branch offices take many forms dictated by service availability/costs.

hermeszdata

skinsFan202 wrote: »

very nice. I was unaware you could use a 3745 for so many different functions at the same time. Might I ask what you're using for your HQ & Branches? 2801s?

s

Currently, I use a 2821 for HQ and a combination of 2811, 2621XM, 2620XM, and 1760 routers for Branch offices, gatekeepers and CUBE routers with an HP DL380 G4 Server running CUCM7 for a Call Agent.
Tomorrow, I might decide to use the 1760 as my HQ router, the next day someting else. This is the nice thing about a lab. I decide what is what and am not constrained by another's dictates. This also enables me to establish some Best Practice baseline performance information!

MichaelCook

Thanks for the quick reply at a late hour. I am trying to nail down a network topology for a 2 site lab. I am considering using a 1760-V at the branch and a CUCM7 or 8 sitting behind a 2610 at HQ. My hope is to use the 2610 as GK when I get to that point. I plan on putting an FXO card in the 1760 just to get a feel for analog but I am unsure on what to aim for between my sites. Any advice? I can't afford to buy a ton of cards right now so I am trying to get bang for my buck. I am thinking T1 or E1 with a crossover would be most beneficial as I have no T1/E1 experience. Not even lab experience.

chmorin

Just thought I would throw it out there, that if you have the 3745 IOS you can emulate them in GNS3 to function very well. I did this to get my CCNA:V before I got real equipment, then I used both to emulate multiple sites and dial peer configurations.

tokhss

GNS3 is great to have and works very well. If your tight on budget, do GN3 for routing and purchase a L3 switch with some phones .. vlan your switch and boom your up and running.

get going with GN3 and then build out your lab. Ref the CCIE labs to get a better idea.

MichaelCook

Man do I love this forum. You guys are amazing. I have never seen this level of interaction on any forum before. I have tried GNS3 but I can only get about 2 routers running before my cpu is consumed. I have tried the idle value but not much better. I just bought a 1760-V and a friend has an old 2600 model. I can pick up a couple switches from work to do the VLANing. I think with this equipment, GNS3 and VMWare I should be off to a good start. I should be able to do maybe 3 sites without issue this way. I have CCNA V but I did it via IIUC so CVoice 8.0 is my next goal.

tokhss

One thing to note. if you plan on getting older equipment.. 1760 and 2600.. then realize it cant be fully utilized against the new certification path if you plan on ccie-v .. sure, it can be used a branch n stuff but the command line is going to be different from some of the stuff i have read.

I am not sure how important all the command line changes / talk is , but i cant disregard it either.

I feel like i made a mistake getting my 2650XM initially.. but i found a good purpose for it for my network as its been converted from a branch office to the GK.

2800s are now my office locations , 3745 for my pstn / frame (even this from what i jsut read isnt ideal) and as i mentioned, 26xxxm for GK.

hermeszdata

tokhss wrote: »

One thing to note. if you plan on getting older equipment.. 1760 and 2600.. then realize it cant be fully utilized against the new certification path if you plan on ccie-v .. sure, it can be used a branch n stuff but the command line is going to be different from some of the stuff i have read.

I am not sure how important all the command line changes / talk is , but i cant disregard it either.

I feel like i made a mistake getting my 2650XM initially.. but i found a good purpose for it for my network as its been converted from a branch office to the GK.

2800s are now my office locations , 3745 for my pstn / frame (even this from what i jsut read isnt ideal) and as i mentioned, 26xxxm for GK.

I'm not sure I quite understand regarding the CLI differences. I have the same IOS versions, AdvEntK9 12.4(15T) (Platform Specific or course) running on 1760s, 2620/21XMs, and 2811/21s. There are no differences in the available commands from one platform to another. I can't say that I see any differences on my 3745 with AdvEntK9 12.4(8a) installed. However, when I installed c2800nm-advipservicesk9-mz.151-3.T.bin on my 2811 there were some very distinct differences, so much so that I went bact to the version now installed (for the sake of consistancy). Not having v15 for the other platforms, I have no way of comparing.
It seems that Cisco has done a good job (from a consistancy standpoint) with the IOS releases when the release is available for several platforms.

... 3745 for my pstn / frame (even this from what i jsut read isnt ideal)

" ... isn't ideal" from what standpoint? What source are you referencing?
From a Study Lab viewpoint, my opinion (for whatever that may be worth) of Ideal is what ever works for the individual based on their budget. Granted, it would be great to have a budget that afforded a rack full of nothing but the latest and greatest equipment. Honestly, I don't see the point or benefit of that. From real world experience, most of what I see are the SOHO 800 Series, the 1720/50/60 Series, 2600 (more nonXM than XM) series, a few 1841s, and even fewer 2800/3800 Series Routers. Most of the switches are 2950s, with the occassional 3550 Series and a total of 2 3750 switches.
Granted, as an independant contractor providing Field Support services, I rarely have an assignment that takes me into an Enterprise Data Center/Network environment. I would expect the latest and greatest in that setting. Most of the remote support people I deal with support multiple companies. The only platforms they are not supporting are the 1600s and 2500s. I haven't seen a 1600 Series in use for over 3 years and can't honestly say I have seen a commissioned 2500 in my 12 years as an independant contractor.

Given the above, I feel it's in my best interest, as well as for others, to have my hands on as much of the currently active platforms as possible. Knowing their limitations goes a long way to resolving network problems. Also, there have been a number of situations over the past few years where I received a dispatch to troubleshoot a router that went off line. The network had been off line for 24 hours when I received the call (mid-afternoon). As it turned out, the router (a 2610) had completely crapped its pants, requiring replacement. It was too late for support to ship a replacement for next-day delivery meaning the network would be down for at least another 36 hours. I had a 2610 and like WIC cards in my lab and offered that as a temporary solution (I also happened to have the same IOS available). They accepted my offer, astonished I would/could offer that level of support. I went back to my office (a 45 min one-way drive), loaded the proper IOS on my spare, installed the WIC cards, transferred the config they sent me via email onto the router, drove back to the site, racked the router and within 10 minutes of pulling into the parking lot, the site was back on line. When I finished, they told me to bill my hours from the time I left my office for the site (my first trip) until I arrived back at my office as Site Complete and that my return visit in 2 days to install their router should be billed the same way!!! Normal billing is for actual on-site hours only! Total time on-site for this dispatch was 3.5 hours @ $65/hr. Time to flash the IOS and push the config in my office, .5hr. Total Driving Time (3 trips) 4.5 hours. Time billed per the customer's request/insistance - 8.5 hours. Invoice paid - $552.50. The ironic thing about this dispatch is, this was the first dispatch I serviced for this company. Since that original dispatch they use me exclusively for their on-site support all over the state paying me above my normal on-site rate from the time I leave my office until the time I return which is almost unheard of in this industry!

I didn't offer that story to brag, but to illustrate the importance of having one's hands on as many different platforms as possible. Being in a position to be able to offer a loaner as a temporary solution is an added bonus. Before I head out on a dispatch for a repair, I get the model information of the router or switch. If I have the same or similar model I take that with me as a just in case along with a USB drive with every IOS I have been able to grab (~ 30GB covering most Cisco platforms.) It is a rare occurance when I depart a site that I leave with the site still down. In those cases it is either an ISP issue or Corporate Policy dictates NO LOANER equipment allowed (and even that policy gets bent from time to time).

tokhss

I was talking about the post from Showdown about using 3725s in the lab.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying you CANT use it. I am saying its not ideal. I should have referenced that thread. LOL, for what its worth, i just bought it, so i def feel its got good use in regards to studying for the ccnp-v .. i cant be certain bout the CCIE-V but since the article talks about IOS rev 12.x to 15.x for ccie and there are some command changes .. it does make you wonder if you will be fully prepped or prepped enough for the ccie-v if cisco changes it 2012.. IMO, i would just match the ccie-v lab before entering that domain lol but i sure do hope my 3745 will be enough.

I cant really relate to field engineers (your story) as most of my role has been remote support / noc jobs where i interface with the field engineer to change cpe out, do the cabling and load basic commands in so i can thereafter take over and finish the job. However, your story does sound right and any good engineer, as yourself, should be as prepped as possible before dispatching to a site.

I will add that with friend and family, when it comes to their business, I have always recommened NEW and up to date cpe, but when they figure out the initial cost they laugh and say LINKSYS lol.. so we normally work out something in between and go for ebay 1800 or 2600 etc.. till this day (3 yrs later) not a single failure and they dont keeo their rack area clean and cool either.. its a ticking time bomb really but they have been well warned. if they go down .. its 2 steps... first, use the backup linksys lol.. next, order replacement from ebay.

RickRandhawa

tokhss wrote: »

I was talking about the post from Showdown about using 3725s in the lab.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying you CANT use it. I am saying its not ideal. I should have referenced that thread. LOL, for what its worth, i just bought it, so i def feel its got good use in regards to studying for the ccnp-v .. i cant be certain bout the CCIE-V but since the article talks about IOS rev 12.x to 15.x for ccie and there are some command changes .. it does make you wonder if you will be fully prepped or prepped enough for the ccie-v if cisco changes it 2012.. IMO, i would just match the ccie-v lab before entering that domain lol but i sure do hope my 3745 will be enough.

I cant really relate to field engineers (your story) as most of my role has been remote support / noc jobs where i interface with the field engineer to change cpe out, do the cabling and load basic commands in so i can thereafter take over and finish the job. However, your story does sound right and any good engineer, as yourself, should be as prepped as possible before dispatching to a site.

I will add that with friend and family, when it comes to their business, I have always recommened NEW and up to date cpe, but when they figure out the initial cost they laugh and say LINKSYS lol.. so we normally work out something in between and go for ebay 1800 or 2600 etc.. till this day (3 yrs later) not a single failure and they dont keeo their rack area clean and cool either.. its a ticking time bomb really but they have been well warned. if they go down .. its 2 steps... first, use the backup linksys lol.. next, order replacement from ebay.

Since you're using the 3745 as your PSTN/WAN router, I seriously doubt it's gonna matter...I think it's more important for actual HQ and Branch routers.

On a note that I find a little amusing, Mark Snow, the author you are referencing from that thread, works for INE who use 3725's for their PSTN/WAN routers.

hermeszdata

tokhss wrote: »

I was talking about the post from Showdown about using 3725s in the lab.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying you CANT use it. I am saying its not ideal. I should have referenced that thread. LOL, for what its worth, i just bought it, so i def feel its got good use in regards to studying for the ccnp-v .. i cant be certain bout the CCIE-V but since the article talks about IOS rev 12.x to 15.x for ccie and there are some command changes .. it does make you wonder if you will be fully prepped or prepped enough for the ccie-v if cisco changes it 2012.. IMO, i would just match the ccie-v lab before entering that domain lol but i sure do hope my 3745 will be enough.

I cant really relate to field engineers (your story) as most of my role has been remote support / noc jobs where i interface with the field engineer to change cpe out, do the cabling and load basic commands in so i can thereafter take over and finish the job. However, your story does sound right and any good engineer, as yourself, should be as prepped as possible before dispatching to a site.

I will add that with friend and family, when it comes to their business, I have always recommened NEW and up to date cpe, but when they figure out the initial cost they laugh and say LINKSYS lol.. so we normally work out something in between and go for ebay 1800 or 2600 etc.. till this day (3 yrs later) not a single failure and they dont keeo their rack area clean and cool either.. its a ticking time bomb really but they have been well warned. if they go down .. its 2 steps... first, use the backup linksys lol.. next, order replacement from ebay.

The post you referenced really did not discuss the 3745 from the PSTN simulator standpoint. It mainly addressed it from the point of view of being in a primary role verses a supporting role. Nor did the topic indicate that anything less than an ISR was un-suitable for study. One thing I did get from the topic was a strong recommendation to have one or more ISRs in the Lab. Obviously, we will need to wait to see how all this plays out.

It's funny that you bring up the friends and family businesses aspect. All I ever did with those was to offer options and then stay the hell out of the way. They knew I would help if needed but I never took a dime in compensation. When I deal with a business directly (no familial or frendship relationship involved) I ask indirect, inocuous, questions that will give me the information I need to formulate options to offer. I also know that most SMBs lack the pocket depth to afford the most recent platforms and therefore the new equipment option is never presented unless specifically requested. I have found that using refrubished equipment from manufacturers like Cisco, Adtran, Dell and HP is a very suitable option as they never seem to die (at least fery often). With the Cisco routers and switches, I sometimes see a PS go out and occassionally a router with a corrupt IOS (this typically happens when thereis a line power surge and the device was not on isolated power ... a UPS). Enterprise Class network hardware seems battle hardened. It appears that you just can't kill it no matter what you do!

With that in mind, I will use Cisco's EOS/EOL 2600, 2950, 2960, 3500, 3600, and 3700 series hardware in a heartbeat and give the same 90-day warranty as comes with new equipment. I just factor the cost of possible failure into my markup and only offer platforms I know is readily available and will be for some time. My customers also know that at some point that equipment will be obsolete to the point that it is no longer servicable but by that time, there will be recent EOL/EOS equipment available at an affordable price for them.

What it really boils down to is providing a customer with an affordable solution that will not only meet their current needs but also provide them with capabilities of future expansion and more than a couple of years of servicability. Who knows, maybe by the time they need to think about their NexGen network their economics may have changed so they can afford the latest and greatest. When they are, you may rest assured that they will call the company who considered their best interest by providing what they needed verses equipment that would break the budget.

tokhss

yeah.. i think they were talking about the next revision of ccie-v and how that cpe is going to be outdated since it cant support 15.x etc etc..

all i know right now is that i simply wouldnt buy a 1700 router if i plan on going ccie-route at some point.. personaly i think the 2600 is the limit at this time. but thats just my opinion.
honestly, at the end of the day, its really how well you familiarize yourself with everything .. if you got a 1700 and a 2600 and a 2800+ then i dont see why anyone couldn't pass an exam as long as something in your network meets the command line /ios standard.. on the other hand, will you have to do workarounds? you bet on it.

i learned that the hard way with my 2600 + aim voice card attempting to set it up as the pstn router .. what did i get at the end.. experience doing different physical / software configs and finally repositioning it as the GK in my network.

nothings impossible Hell the word itself even states "IM POSSIBLE" hahah

tokhss

Hermz, lol i dont charge friend and family either.. but i always suggest new no matter what so there is no discussion at some point down the line if something goes wrong and it has yet to be discussion but i do it anyways.

Yes, Old Cisco cpe seems to work very well, even in harsh environments. love it.

Regarding the post about 3725s.. to me it came off as upgrade to be safe and sure for the revisions. Again, ideally, I would have 2811+ throughout my network E2E. Could I do it, yes, but clearly i choose to have a 2650 and a 3745 that will NOT support IOS 15x,. and im OK with that only b/c i do have 2800s in my network.

If someone was to ask for a recommendation on building out their lab, I would without a doubt suggest fro now on 2800s and up as they support 15x and at the very least, fall in line with revisions in the future. At the same time, as my post above states, anything is possible, just depends how well you can workout around a limitation of any sort.