Would the world of certifications be better if all expired after a period of time?

It seems to me that lifetime certifications are part of the problem in the cert world. Here is the benefits of having an expiration date. (IMO)

Your certifications would mean more, since it was current. Requiring a retest would force that individual to keep up with his studies. Right now all you have to do for a lot of these certifications is to study like hell for one year and then after you accomplish what you need to accomplish/pass test or tests, then just forget it. Yet you can still list it.
Less is more. What I mean by this is that people wouldn't have as many certifications, however the ones they had they would really know. Obviously you would still have dumpers, but a lot of people don't **** and still don't know much about their certifications, because they move on to new technologies. This would force an individual to commit to certain technologies and stick with them. If he or she didn't because of whatever reason, then the cert would expire. If they wanted to move onto another technology they would focus on that, however the other certification would expire if they didn't keep up with the previous technology, framework etc.
The value of certifications would increase. With people not doing as many, because then are forced to focus on their trade, people wouldn't have a ton of certifications. Which in turn would make your cert more valuable.
You wouldn't need to get as many. Since you are focusing on one or two certifications and consistently having to update them every so often, (3-5) years for an example, you wouldn't have applications with dozens of certifications.

I'll be honest with you, I did A+ and N+ because of the life time status. If they had been renewable certifications I wouldn't have done them. A lot of people wouldn't have to be honest and a direct result would of been more value for those certifications in my opinion.

Thoughts and opinions?

I'm sure this post won't make me popular, but I am curious to see what people think. I haven't done a lot of thinking about this to be honest. I just wanted to throw it out there.

***Note I do realize some already do like Cisco and others. Those seem to be some of the most respected as well. Is there a connection?

Have a good day.

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SteveO86

I think another reason Cisco certs are more respected is because their tests are usually a bit harder and typically require hands on work. (Due to the simulations, and the drag and drops, it's not fully Dependant on Multiple choice QA where process of elimination can get you the right answer most of the time)

As far as the lifetime status that's the only reason I took my Security+... Where I am currently am, I don't feel any need or see any usefulness for a CompTIA cert at all, their really only good for getting your foot in the door after that experience starts kicking in. (So I'm not sure if CompTIA is a good example, especially if you've been in the business for so many years chances are you would have advanced and moved on).

Microsoft certs on the other hand don't expire either, but with every server release Microsoft has a new set of credentials so while they never expire they kind of do. I mean how worth while is an MCSA/MCSE going to be another 3-5 years? (the only thing it will show is experience you've been working with MS for years, your no stranger to it all). Don't get me wrong the I'm sure the MCSE will always hold some type of status for those that have but time will take it's toll.

As far as the less is more statement, companies want people to be a "jack of trades" kind of thing nowadays, it's easier for companies to have redundancy in their staff. While I can see your argument in this, everyone learns a different pace some people can catch on quicker then others. I think we would only be hurting ourselves on this one.

I honestly don't want to be a position where I know a single technology, it can be a dangerous place to be in.

Something else I want to touch on, Just cause you have a certification it doesn't mean your expert (With the exception of CWNE, CCIE, CCAr and others at the top tier). It's just verifies your skill set at a particular level.

---

I don't think anyone will think any less of you, you bring up valid points.

rwmidl

I have no problem with retests, but I think being able to apply CPE's (continuing professional education) credits to it is also beneficial.

networker050184

By nature, I think its very important for a certification to have an expiration/renewal process. Most certifications center around a certain technology and its application, usually on a certain vendors piece of equipment also. This is something that is in a constant state of change as new standards and software releases are churned out. Any technical certification that doesn't require a person to keep up with these changes loses a lot of credibility in my eyes, and I'd assume most employers also.

bertieb

SteveO86 wrote: »

Microsoft certs on the other hand don't expire either, but with every server release Microsoft has a new set of credentials so while they never expire they kind of do.

Actually, the newer MS certifications do become inactive Microsoft Certification exams | IT Certification | Exam Preparation FAQ

SteveO86

(I feel my stand was lost in my long winded post)

Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with certs expiring.. My Cisco & RIM Certs will expire one day (If I don't keep up with them) but I have no plans on letting them lapse as long as I am still working with the technology.

bertieb wrote: »

Actually, the newer MS certifications do become inactive Microsoft Certification exams | IT Certification | Exam Preparation FAQ

I did not know that. Thanks for the link.

colemic

I'd shoot myself if I had to take the CISSP again, and the CISA exam in June I expect to be even worse.

There's not really a magic bullet solution... CPEs definitely have their place. I actually think ISC(2) and others should require MORE CPEs. That would be acceptable to me, instead of retesting.

veritas_libertas

It seems like we go through this discussion every other week

NetworkingStudent

N2IT wrote: »

It seems to me that lifetime certifications are part of the problem in the cert world. Here is the benefits of having an expiration date. (IMO)
Your certifications would mean more, since it was current. Requiring a retest would force that individual to keep up with his studies. Right now all you have to do for a lot of these certifications is to study like hell for one year and then after you accomplish what you need to accomplish/pass test or tests, then just forget it. Yet you can still list it.

Less is more. What I mean by this is that people wouldn't have as many certifications, however the ones they had they would really know. Obviously you would still have dumpers, but a lot of people don't **** and still don't know much about their certifications, because they move on to new technologies. This would force an individual to commit to certain technologies and stick with them. If he or she didn't because of whatever reason, then the cert would expire. If they wanted to move onto another technology they would focus on that, however the other certification would expire if they didn't keep up with the previous technology, framework etc.

The value of certifications would increase. With people not doing as many, because then are forced to focus on their trade, people wouldn't have a ton of certifications. Which in turn would make your cert more valuable.

You wouldn't need to get as many. Since you are focusing on one or two certifications and consistently having to update them every so often, (3-5) years for an example, you wouldn't have applications with dozens of certifications.

I'll be honest with you, I did A+ and N+ because of the life time status. If they had been renewable certifications I wouldn't have done them. A lot of people wouldn't have to be honest and a direct result would of been more value for those certifications in my opinion.

Thoughts and opinions?

I'm sure this post won't make me popular, but I am curious to see what people think. I haven't done a lot of thinking about this to be honest. I just wanted to throw it out there.

***Note I do realize some already do like Cisco and others. Those seem to be some of the most respected as well. Is there a connection?

Have a good day.

I think recertifying after so many years should be a company or organizational rule/policy, and not a vendor one. Also, I believe these decisions are very personal too, because there is a high level of discipline that a person must use to obtain a certification.
If you really want to make these certifications stand out, then add some hardware labs. For example, the A+ could consists of 1-10 hardware labs, like installing a hard drive, installing an operating system, installing ram, and these labs could somehow be graded by Comp tia. You could do similar hardware labs for the Network+ and Security+, however; I believe it would be harder do a test like this for the Security+ test.

I think Cisco is a leader in keeping their testing candidates current, because their tests expire every 3 years. This works for them, and I applaud them for developing and maintaining some high standards.

Comptia made a bad move by setting their certs to expire after 3 years. Especially since the tests that they set to expire are basics skills that are required in IT. Can you really make a case for recertifying your A+ , Net+, and Sec+ every 3 years?

I think recertifying every three years actually encourages brain dumping, because the candidates might feel the urge to **** to gain employment, or to keep their job.

ROI-If vendors really want to do recertifying, then they need to have a better marketing campaign! I have been on the job search and some companies know what my certs mean and other companies don’t. I don’t mind explaining their value, but couldn’t Microsoft and comptia do a better job of marketing the value of their candidates that pass these exams?

colemic

I think CompTIA actually made a smart move - I would wager that it was solely to gain acceptance into DoD 8570, (I am thinking they finally got ANSI or ISO certified?) which, if you saw their internal numbers, I guarantee that there was a HUGE jump in the number of test takers for their exams.

Ahriakin

They definitely need to expire. On paper I'm still an MCSE but I wouldn't trust myself near a server anymore

white96gt

N2IT wrote: »

Less is more. What I mean by this is that people wouldn't have as many certifications, however the ones they had they would really know. Obviously you would still have dumpers, but a lot of people don't **** and still don't know much about their certifications, because they move on to new technologies. This would force an individual to commit to certain technologies and stick with them. If he or she didn't because of whatever reason, then the cert would expire. If they wanted to move onto another technology they would focus on that, however the other certification would expire if they didn't keep up with the previous technology, framework etc.

This is a real good point. How many times do you see someone pass through Microsoft's certificate path and then jump right into Cisco. Its one thing if you have a good amount of experience, but I see this with a lot of new people. Its better to concentrate on one technology then to continue to jump around.

N2IT

Ahriakin wrote: »

They definitely need to expire. On paper I'm still an MCSE but I wouldn't trust myself near a server anymore

I know the feeling.

Obviously I don't possess a MCSE, but I can see that being the case.

Makes a lot of sense and coming from someone with a ton of experience brings a lot of weight.

-N2

eMeS

I'm of the opinion that there is a de facto expiration for all certifications already.

First, there are the certs out there with a built-in expiration. Of note is that with programs like Cisco's, they don't require you to retest the cert you've already earned, they just require you to keep current by passing any certification exam that they offer (oddly enough, Cisco's training page is down at the moment, so that's what's preventing me from wording this more accurately).

At least with this example, I'm not sure how the expiration makes the world of certifications better. I could go take a Cisco exam from a different path to keep my cert active, but that doesn't mean that I'm necessarily competent in the cert I earned 3 years prior.

I see an expiration scheme like this more of a way for vendors to protect a brand. Just look at all of the problems Microsoft has had with switching to MCITP. With a CCNA on the other hand, Cisco isn't forced to update the name of the credential when the underlying material changes significantly, because the market will know that a CCNA at least passed some Cisco exam in the last 3 years.

Other certifications that don't have a set certifications, actually do have an expiration. They expire when the technology changes and is deprecated or the body of knowledge changes significantly. This is why I don't carry the Novell CNE 3.12x on my resume any longer (and haven't since the mid-90's). Although the certification is technically valid, the technology is likely still in use somewhere, for all intents and purposes the certification has expired.

Adding a formal expiration will do little to nothing to improve the world of certifications, or their respect in business communities. It is likely to increase the amount of dumping, and would not reduce the amount of people that pile on various credentials. It would also change nothing about the fact that technology changes rapidly, and certifications over time generally expire on their own.

MS

networker050184

I agree 100% with you eMeS on the Cisco (and any similar vendor's with a similar approach) piece. Being able to renew a CCVP, for example, by passing one CCNP exam is not enough to help the cert stay relevant. It's more of a way for vendors to encourage you to keep pumping money into their exams.

I disagree however that a recert process will do little to help the certification credibility. Dumping is a fact of life. As long as there are exams (IT certification related or not) people will find a way to ****. That's a fact of life. A certification that needs to be renewed periodically will always carry more weight than a lifetime cert regardless IMO.

NinjaBoy

The following are my opinions.

Personally:

1. I believe that professional certifications that are version specific should not need to be renewed. eg MS certs as you are tested on a version (eg 2003 + r2, 2008 + r2, Windows 7, etc)

2. Professional certifications that are not version specific should be renewed, eg Cisco - there is no CCNA for hardware/software revision 5, etc... (I was one of the people mift about Comptia as they heavily marketed their certs as life-time then did the uturn, but that doesn't affect me as I already got the A+, N+ and S+ way before the renewal process).

3. That the IT professional should be regulated (like other professions, eg Nursing, teaching, engineering, etc) and that there should be some sort of professional registration that is renewed every 5 years or so thru a combination of CPD and maybe reference(s).

Passing professional certifications doesn't actually prove that you do your job properly or that you implement the technology properly or that you have the soft-skills/business skills needed. Besides even with the above certifications, how many of us still refer to CBT's, books, and online resources to do the rare processes in our jobs?

-Ken

mikedisd2

Ah, hell no. 7x exams to get the MCSE; how is the wide scope of that curriculum going to be practically renewed every 3x years? If I've done it, I've earned it for the life of it's technology.

And it's been said a million times in this forum; if you don't have the experience to match a cert, it's not going to mean a whole lot.

NinjaBoy wrote: »

3. That the IT professional should be regulated (like other professions, eg Nursing, teaching, engineering, etc) and that there should be some sort of professional registration that is renewed every 5 years or so thru a combination of CPD and maybe reference(s).

Nurse, teachers, engineers become qualified to get their job; IT people become certified to mearly learn a topic. There is no similarity between the career paths. You can't regulate IT because there are limitless roles to assume, not just "IT Professional" and "Senior IT Professional". More importantly, you WANT to be regulated? Don't you have enough hassles in IT as it is?

NinjaBoy

mikedisd2 wrote: »

...Nurse, teachers, engineers become qualified to get their job; IT people become certified to mearly learn a topic. There is no similarity between the career paths. You can't regulate IT because there are limitless roles to assume, not just "IT Professional" and "Senior IT Professional". More importantly, you WANT to be regulated? Don't you have enough hassles in IT as it is?

Yes there are limitless roles to assume, there's no denying that, however the underlining skills framework (SFIA) is there regardless of what level you work at and what role.

In my years of IT, while I have seen IT Professionals whose skills and experience have surpassed my own. However I have seen many more with certifications and experience do more harm than good in the organisations environment, anything from wasting finances to implementing poor systems. My team & I have had to come in and fix these organisations IT systems.

So to answer your question, do I want to be regulated? If you really must know, in a way I am already. I'm a member of a professional body who regulates the practice of our profession and I already work to level 5 of the SFIA.

However the IT Profession being regulated is slightly different, regulation brings in standards, standards brings in professionalism. The hassles that we face, 9 out of 10 times, is created by people with a little knowledge or cowboys that think that just because they use a computer at home or have a piece of paper that they can call themselves an IT Professional, devaluing our profession.

IT as an unregulated sub-profession is not ok. Maybe then IT should then have entry requirements like a degree or Masters in order to enter the profession, then a period of mentorship (since you brought up the fact that other professions have to be qualified to get a job).

-Ken

<sorry for going off topic>

earweed

I personally think the OP is right in a way. I have a friend who's an MCSE (NT4) who was clueless when I was discussing Server 2008 and Server 2008 R2 with him. He knows somewhat about Server 2003 (he's worked with it) but hasn't stayed current on the technology. He didn't even know that there was a Server 2008 R2 and he's a system admin. I know more about Server 2003 than this guy and I got my knowledge of 2003 in my 2008 and 2008 R2 studies.
Professional level certs should all have an expiration date, I don't think the entry level certs should though. One of the earlier posters recommended the addition of a practicum to each lab. The MCITP:EA is doing that in a way by adding the scenarios to the tests.

erpadmin

I echo earweed's point when it comes to an MCSE NT 4.0. Microsoft's O/S changed dramatically starting with 2000 that if all you know is NT 4.0 at an interview, you are pretty much wasting everyone's time; including your own. I never certified in NT 4.0, 2000, or 2003, but I've worked with all of those servers, PLUS could demonstrate the differences with each of them. One thing I can say about Server 2008 R2 is that it is ridiculously stable PLUS setting up a SQL Failover cluster is very straightforward. (It was the same with 2003 and 2000, but 2008 R2 is really easy and more intuitive.)

To bring this point home to this thread, I think if you're still dealing with 2003 at your shop, it's not really important to cert up on 2008 UNLESS you know you're going to either upgrade on 2008 OR you're going to a shop that has 2008. Likewise, having certs like A+, Network+ and Security+ expire is completely useless....those certs are only to be used to get you into IT, then you're supposed to have a higher end Microsoft cert (or even Linux if you're at a Linux shop), a CCNA (which makes Network+ the joke that it is) and a SSCP/CISSP for Security. CompTIA was never meant to be used to "keep current"...that's just federal government bureaucracy nonsense. That's why I made sure that if/when I needed to get Security+, I made sure it was during the lifetime era.

Cisco at least you have options to recert. You have a CCNA, and then you could either stay at that level, or do what most good network folks do...work on the next higher cert like the CCNP...then that renews yours CCNA and proves to folks that you still know Cisco. You can fake (****) a Cisco exam, but you can't fake knowledge; that's why I respect that cert. Cisco isn't in my career path, but I have a good familiarity with networking that I don't need it to be. I don't tend to work at small shops where I'd have to do not just Cisco, but telephony as well (that JOAT-jazz is for the very young, IMO).

So yeah, having a MCSE NT 4.0 is nice.... However in 2011 and beyond...it doesn't exactly add to relevance with what's going on today and tomorrow.

powerfool

I like the approach that Microsoft has taken with versioning their certifications. If someone is an MCSE on Server 2003, I feel confident that they can work their way around Server 2008, but an MCSE on NT4, not so much. The other thing that I really like with this approach is that it shows longevity. MCSE NT4, 2000, 2003, MCITP Enterprise Administrator on 2008... that so that someone has been working with Windows servers for 10+ years.

Contiuing Education is another way to prove up to date knowledge. I think that they only really have value for the more in depth and desired certifications, like CISSP, CEH, PMP, and Microsoft could use this same model for the upper end certs, maybe only MCM and MCA, but I would say that they could even be effective for certain MCITP certs, or maybe recertifying someone by taking one new exam in their track (e.g. MCTS on Exchange 2010 renews MCITP EMA from 2007).

Turgon

For a number of years Novell had a continuing certification requirement for their CNE's which helped keep them current on the latest Netware versions. This was generally undertaken by the CNEs registered with Novell. Personally I think if you are MCSE on a particular version you should keep that status for life. As new versions come along many people will upskill in the recent MCSE technologies by reading and hands on while others will simply embark on the latest MCSE track. Im not convinced forcing people to recert to keep the MCSE moniker will lead to a more capable workforce, although it would probably mean a more qualified one.

Turgon MCSE NT 4.0 1999, but some experience with 2000 and 2003 but it was 8 years ago!

PC509

I think it depends on the certification. For example: getting certified in Windows Server 2000 (or even NT), it would only be valuable during that products lifetime. Once most people switch to the next version (2003, 2008, 2011), it pretty much devalues the previous edition certification.

But, with CCNA, it is generalized towards a certain skill set. The technology changes, the test changes, but the certification doesn't. You're either CCNA or you aren't.

I'll be fine either way. I take the exams to showcase my experience, not to replace it. If I let my certs expire or lapse, then one of two things happened:

1. I'm not moving enough in my career to work to a higher level certification.
2. I don't use that technology, and it wouldn't be worthwhile to take the exam.

Some certs I go take for personal gratification, with no career motives. But, others are because I know the material and I want to show that I know it to a future employer.

erpadmin

PC509 wrote: »

I'll be fine either way. I take the exams to showcase my experience, not to replace it. If I let my certs expire or lapse, then one of two things happened:

1. I'm not moving enough in my career to work to a higher level certification.
2. I don't use that technology, and it wouldn't be worthwhile to take the exam.

+1 on that. You may have been a server guy at some point in your career but decided Cisco was your calling in IT. Then the opposite is true; you got your CCNA, MCSE, etc, but decided to stay in the server-part of the house and let the CCNA expire. Maybe you found that you like databases/programming and pursued that. I don't care what anybody says; specialization hasn't gone anywhere in real large shops. JOATs (where you are your company's server and network admin, plus do L1/L2 help desk and also are your shop's web designer and programmer/DBA) are still in small shops or midsize companies with small IT budgets (in which case, I run away from those like I'd run from the plague.)

PC509 wrote: »

Some certs I go take for personal gratification, with no career motives. But, others are because I know the material and I want to show that I know it to a future employer.

That's going to be me on the CCNA one day. I don't need it for my career, but I know it's not a difficult test with real proper study. I don't even want it on my resume (in fact I wouldn't even list it on my resume). But I would mention it as an aside that I do/did have it "just because..."

N2IT

Some really good responses. Thanks for sharing your opinions

I agree that the MS certifications regulate themselves with their versioning. I also agree that the lower level ones are probably just fine being lifetime.

I found my opinion changing a bit after reading some of the responses. I still think the higher level certifications should have expiration dates.

Either way good answers.

Heero

I don't see any reason why it would not be left up to the company or organisation providing the certifications as to whether or not the cert expires. It can be taken as more of a case by case basis. Microsoft certs tend to regulate themselves as new operating system versions come out. With Cisco, they need a 3 year expiration as the cert does not change regularly.

stiltner

I would say yes they should. Past a certain point though most of the information in the tests is already stale when you take them. So at what point does what you know and experience on the job bypass what the test covers?

Except the very basics I think the answer almost has to be immediately. So, should they expire? Yes, and I think the way MS does it makes the most logical sense to me. When the product is retired, the certification should retire also. So, while your skills will forever remain valid, the title shall not.

Its why I cannot wait for Windows XP to finally die the horrid painful death it rightfully deserves. Windows 7 should be on 85% of desktops by now, Windows XP is nothing but a blight on advancement at this point IMO.

infringer

I will tell you it is a lot of work and a lot of money to be able to take certification exams....

Expiration is bullocks imho.

COMPTIA was a great thing it was a basic certification that says hey this guy has got the basics down for this that or the other thing it was a very general certification that did not have a need for renewal IMHO it just said this guy has enough knowledge to be able to get further knowledge as needed in this specific category. I personally could figure anything out as I need it without any credentials why can there not be a credential for DIY learner or something along that line...

I will tell you what many people refer to the internet for problems they cannot solve easily or they simply forget how to solve certain problems so they look it up. Me personally I have an A+ certification and have worked with much equipment I have never seen and was able to look it up and figure it out. It can be very nerve wrecking being an IT and not having the answers or a solution for something right away! Let me tell you I have been there in that position but with the internet as a guide for me I studied the device the problem and then found the solution. Credentials are nice sure but they are simply saying that you have the potential to diagnose and fix a problem. Outside of some hardware issue broken or dying electronic there has not been one thing that I have not eventually been able to figure out.

Why is there not a credential for that every IT that I know refers to the internet to solve there issues at some given point... I don't care if they are a Cisco, CompTIA, or Microsoft certified professional they all do it.

I have my TSBAMP certification....

Trouble Shoot By Any Means Possible certifications coming soon!

GET YOURS BEFORE YOU HAVE TO RENEW IT BY DEC 21 2012
if the world hasn't ended you will need to renew it!

swild

I was originally pushed to get my Comptia A+, Net+ and Sec+ because the lifetime cert was ending at the end of last year. That is what started me down my cert path and is what has tripled my salary in less than a year.

My first real IT job was as an Office/IT manager for a small doctor's office. I saw all the medical professionals doing their required CPE's and I guess that has made an impression. I really, really would NOT see a doctor that wasn't required to keep his education current. I also want the Network Admin at my bank to be required to keep his education up to remain employed.

I love that my CISSP requires me to submit CPE's to remain certified. I have now signed up for Comptia's CE program. I go back and forth thinking if it is worth it to pay for it, but I don't have to do any extra CPE's than I need for the CISSP.

On the other side of that coin. One of my former bosses has an expired CCNA. I think he could pass the CCNP without a problem and probably the CCIE. His experience alone (10+ years as lead NOC for an ISP) carries him and no one would doubt his competency. He even has other ISPs calling him for advice.

In the end it is only knowledge that truly matters. The trick is proving that you have that knowledge to an employer. A cert, expired or not, is what can land you the interview, but your knowledge (or ability to fake it) and drive is what gets you the job.

I have the drive to keep myself educated and the desire to obtain better and better employment (aka salary). Even if CPE's are not required, I think it is my duty to myself to keep up with the technology that I am supporting.

Turgon

infringer wrote: »

Why is there not a credential for that every IT that I know refers to the internet to solve there issues at some given point... I don't care if they are a Cisco, CompTIA, or Microsoft certified professional they all do it.

The problem with the internet is too many techs think it's a cure all. It 'aint. A lot of what comes back isn't validated. Further, if you are going to make sense of what you find (if you find it, some aspect of design work for example are notoriously difficult to google down..), then some good old fashioned education is most helpful. Reading, labbing, certification tracks that force you to learn material are all good there!

jibbajabba

Something inside me tells me they need to expire, knowing I am triple MCITP but the 2008:SA / EA I passed over three years ago and don't know much about AD anymore as I haven't with it (Enterprise level anyway). But I'd shoot myself if I had to retake every single MCTS. Part of the problem are certs with multiple choice only exams I think.