Stop Lying!

Daniel333Daniel333 Member Posts: 2,077 ■■■■■■□□□□
I have to vent.

Alright, here is the thing. I run technical interviews for engineers for my company. And I personally run an paid intern department. So clearly I do a lot of interviews. Especially as we are on a hiring spree right now.

I am sooo sick of half truths and lies on resume. I have become quite angry when I walk into an interview I am running.

1) So a guy I am interviewing for a tier level 1 system admin spot have "Linux" as a job skill listed and under his work experience "administed a cluster of Apache servers under Debian" for two years.

So I spun my laptop around and asked him to set the ip address on my laptop (runs Ubuntu 10.04) he then stated "that wasn't really his area". The jerk has Linux+ on his resume too!

2) Interviewing for an another level 1 lan operations, but we needed some minor CCNA level Cisco skills. The guy goes on about he is "starting his CCNP" and how he installed DS3 lines and bla blah. So I asked him "How do you backup a router config?". He had some dance here and I gave him another chance "Tell why you use a vlan?" he then went on about how design wasn't something he did. Sigh...

3) Desktop support guy, A+ and MCDST cert I asked him "what does msconfig do?" he didn't know. I asked him what tools he had used to for malware and all he said was Symantec. Lastly he had "highly experienced in Ghost" so I asked him how ghost worked? He had no idea.

I am just saying be honest. I would rather hire someone who had a simple honest resume than a boat full of lies and half truths. I have left spots unfilled for months now because of these people.

Anyhow, I am interviewing for a senior engineer spot next month. I was thinking of setting up a basic router on a stick and asking the guy to explain it. Any other reasonable ideas?
-Daniel
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Comments

  • hiddenknight821hiddenknight821 Member Posts: 1,209 ■■■■■■□□□□
    That's really pathetic. Sounds like I could have landed that job even though my level of experience is not even there yet, but I am straight-up honest about my resume. The person you are interviewing is definitely lying. I wish I have technical interviews like this one more often where I can actually prove my credentials. Keep this up so you guys know you are actually making your time and money worth hiring professionals with actual skills. It would sucks if he/she got away with the interview and actually got a shot at working on his/her first day before getting fired eventually.
  • rsuttonrsutton Member Posts: 1,029 ■■■■■□□□□□
    I've actually had co-workers tell me that they put all kinds of frivolous stuff on their resume. One guy claimed that if he could get "lucky" on the interview questions he would learn what was needed as he went. Almost all the people I know like this are currently unemployed or not working in IT.
  • phantasmphantasm Member Posts: 995
    I had to explain to an Engineer what router on a stick was. Sad really.
    "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -Heraclitus
  • N2ITN2IT Inactive Imported Users Posts: 7,483 ■■■■■■■■■■
    Daniel333 wrote: »
    I have to vent.

    Alright, here is the thing. I run technical interviews for engineers for my company. And I personally run an paid intern department. So clearly I do a lot of interviews. Especially as we are on a hiring spree right now.

    I am sooo sick of half truths and lies on resume. I have become quite angry when I walk into an interview I am running.

    1) So a guy I am interviewing for a tier level 1 system admin spot have "Linux" as a job skill listed and under his work experience "administed a cluster of Apache servers under Debian" for two years.

    So I spun my laptop around and asked him to set the ip address on my laptop (runs Ubuntu 10.04) he then stated "that wasn't really his area". The jerk has Linux+ on his resume too!

    2) Interviewing for an another level 1 lan operations, but we needed some minor CCNA level Cisco skills. The guy goes on about he is "starting his CCNP" and how he installed DS3 lines and bla blah. So I asked him "How do you backup a router config?". He had some dance here and I gave him another chance "Tell why you use a vlan?" he then went on about how design wasn't something he did. Sigh...

    3) Desktop support guy, A+ and MCDST cert I asked him "what does msconfig do?" he didn't know. I asked him what tools he had used to for malware and all he said was Symantec. Lastly he had "highly experienced in Ghost" so I asked him how ghost worked? He had no idea.

    I am just saying be honest. I would rather hire someone who had a simple honest resume than a boat full of lies and half truths. I have left spots unfilled for months now because of these people.

    Anyhow, I am interviewing for a senior engineer spot next month. I was thinking of setting up a basic router on a stick and asking the guy to explain it. Any other reasonable ideas?

    That's crazy you interview for all those different positions. Do you wear several hats at your current job?
  • Daniel333Daniel333 Member Posts: 2,077 ■■■■■■□□□□
    Seriously, if this was an isolated incident, no problem. But it's constant!
    N2IT wrote: »
    That's crazy you interview for all those different positions. Do you wear several hats at your current job?

    haha, understatement of the week :)

    We're a managed service provider so I do a lot of areas. SQL, Cisco, Voip, Windows, Mac, and Linux. I am certainly no expert in any field, but for the small business market I do well enough.
    -Daniel
  • N2ITN2IT Inactive Imported Users Posts: 7,483 ■■■■■■■■■■
    Daniel333 wrote: »
    Seriously, if this was an isolated incident, no problem. But it's constant!



    haha, understatement of the week :)

    We're a managed service provider so I do a lot of areas. SQL, Cisco, Voip, Windows, Mac, and Linux. I am certainly no expert in any field, but for the small business market I do well enough.

    Thankfully I haven't had to deal with this all that much. I have caught people in awkward situations though. I am a team lead / manager over a deployment group for a fortune 500 company. I've seen guys with MCSE on their resume and not come up with basic answers. First thing comes to mind is brain **** or no ability to retain information. Either way I have no use for those individuals.

    Hope things pick up for you Daniel. It's stressful enough transitioning into new projects and keeping utilization high. We don't need any posers making our lives any more stressful.
  • docricedocrice Member Posts: 1,706 ■■■■■■■■■■
    Too bad it's either illegal (or probably legally-gray) to post these "doctored" resumes in an online hall of shame somewhere (with the personal information masked out). Kind of like how a grade school teacher goes through an essay and crosses out sections with a big fat red pen and adds commentary.
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  • ally_ukally_uk Member Posts: 1,146 ■■■■□□□□□□
    Get the f**k out my office you Douche Bags would of been my response lol, And I would of handed them a copy of Computing for Numpties. Why why why? do people do this? don't they realize that they will look like absolute morons on the job when they can't do something expected? ive worked alongside similar people who have brain dumped and nothing beats hands on experience.
    Microsoft's strategy to conquer the I.T industry

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  • millworxmillworx Member Posts: 290
    Ahh on the flip side of the coin, when I was interviewing, I had most of those questions and scenarios thrown at me. Proir to a couple interviews the interviewers told me over the phone, they were tired of doing interviews of people who are trumping up their resume. I came in interviewed, and at the end they told me how refreshing it was to finally get a candidate that knew what he was talking about. I turned down the offer though.

    Though it does remind me of one interview I had when I first started out in the field 11ish years ago for a small ISP in oakland. Guy wanted me to setup and configure Windows 2000 server from scratch, and had a list of about 20 something things that needed to be configured. He asked me if I could do it, I said no problem! I completed everything, DHCP server, DNS, Exchange, AD, etc etc... but I got stuck on one item. I dont remember what the exact specifications were, but it was something to do with IIS.

    Well the guy started yelling at me, and told me to get a job at McDonalds because I couldnt complete the ONE damn item left. You would think if I completed 19/20 things to satisfaction, that I would be competant enough to learn that one extra item in no time. But no... I got belittled and berrated for "wasting his time". Some people are jerks, and if 95% wasn't good enough for his evaluation, then F him. I never lied, I just got stuck on the last thing.
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  • NOC-NinjaNOC-Ninja Member Posts: 1,403
    someone should filter them through phone. lol
    I would shake their hand right away and tell them "we will call you".
  • undomielundomiel Member Posts: 2,818
    My personal favourite is to ask them to explain how AD authentication works and push them beyond just saying that the system asks a DC. Give them a white board and have them draw it out. Some other questions would be how would they design the network for a 3 host cluster and 1 shared storage. White board this as well. Have them list out the Exchange roles and then explain the flow of a message submitted from an internal client out to the internet. If you want to hit on 2010 have them tell you how many MAPI networks you can have with 7 mailbox servers. Maybe ask them, you have a network running on a 2 host Hyper-V cluster, the cluster was shutdown and now can not start up again, why?

    It's not too much on the networking side but I think you were asking for questions from across the board. Hopefully some will help.
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  • mikej412mikej412 Member Posts: 10,090
    Daniel333 wrote: »
    I am sooo sick of half truths and lies on resume.
    The best job some people ever will do in their entire career is the creative writing job they do on their resume. icon_lol.gif

    I still haven't figured out who exactly hires these people since lots of the tricks people use on resumes are pretty well known.

    If a degree is really required for a position -- you verify it with the College or University (after verifying it's a real school).

    If some of the specific experience listed on the resume is required for a job, you ask for references at the company the experience is listed under. And you call the main published phone number of the company (after checking it's a real company) and make sure the reference is real -- and not a friend (or reference service) using a prepaid cell phone or Internet phone service.

    If someone is claiming knowledge and experience on their resume that is not listed under their job history, ask them which job and/or job reference will vouch for those skills.

    If someone says they ran their own company, ask if they have any well known customers that will provide references for their services. Ask about their sales numbers for the time periods listed.

    If certifications are required, you verify them via the vendor's verification system.

    If someone makes it in for an interview, the hiring manager may talk to them first to make sure they are functionally literate and won't crack under the pressure of an interview -- and then sends them for a peer technical interview. If you can't pass a peer technical interview -- game over.

    If you're hiring for a new position and you don't have anyone with the skills to conduct a peer interview -- then you rely on the hiring probationary period. And hopefully the hiring manager has a clue of what they would expect that person to demonstrate within their first 90 days.
    :mike: Cisco Certifications -- Collect the Entire Set!
  • hiddenknight821hiddenknight821 Member Posts: 1,209 ■■■■■■□□□□
    mikej412 wrote: »
    If certifications are required, you verify them via the vendor's verification system.

    Yeah, but remember people can still do brain ****. So why bother checking when you can filter them out during the technical interviews.
  • mikej412mikej412 Member Posts: 10,090
    So why bother checking when you can filter them out during the technical interviews.
    Why bother with a technical phone screen on the people who lie about having certifications?

    About 20% of our job applicants contacted with a request for certification verification don't bother continuing the process. Either they found something better -- or they lied about their certifications or they figure we're actually going to verify more of their resume. It's a big time saver.
    :mike: Cisco Certifications -- Collect the Entire Set!
  • SteveLordSteveLord Member Posts: 1,717
    I've seen someone on here (with something like 10 certs mind you) that was confused how to access MSDOS (not the command prompt) to perform a BIOS update.
    WGU B.S.IT - 9/1/2015 >>> ???
  • SlowhandSlowhand MCSE: Cloud Platform and Infrastructure, MCSA: Windows Server 2003/2012/2016, CCNA Routing & Switchi Bay Area, CaliforniaMod Posts: 5,163 Mod
    I learned the value of telling the absolute truth about my abilities when I got my first enterprise-level IT work. During my interview, I said the words, "I don't know how to do that, but I do know where I can look it up" and "honestly, that's something I'd need some training on in order to feel truly comfortable working solo with" more times than I care to remember. At the end of the initial interview with the VP and the senior network engineer, they had me do a question-and-answer session with regular NOC engineers, and they seemed to like the fact that I either knew an answer or I'd tell them that I'd have to learn how to do what they asked of me. An hour later, I got a formal job-offer and was told to start Monday. At this time, I had no degree and had only just taken the last exam for my MCSA that week.

    Incidentally, I watched those same to managers fire one of my co-workers a month later. He had a degree from UC Berkeley and bragged about all the different technologies he'd 'mastered' on a daily basis. They fired him for incompetence, he managed to crash just about every server he touched, apparently. icon_lol.gif

    Every single person that asks me for advice about interviews gets the same advice: be honest about your abilities. It's worked for me so far, and I'm sure it will continue to work in the future.

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  • blargoeblargoe Self-Described Huguenot NC, USAMember Posts: 4,174 ■■■■■■■■■□
    I had gotten some bad advice from the career guy at my college a decade ago when I was starting to look for a job. There are a lot of people telling us to list everything that we've ever touched for one reason or another... to get a keyword so we'll get a call back... to make us look more well rounded... or whatever. I got burned on this early on and learned my lesson. Like Slowhand, I have found that not exaggerating your abilities is always the right way to go. Yes, put a lot of emphasis on your stronger areas, if they fit what the company is looking for, you'll get a call back, and after meeting you, they'll decide whether you're worth investing in to fill the gaps.

    I have been underqualified for every permanent job I have taken in my professional career, based on the posted job requirements. Some cases much more so than other cases. If you meet "most" of what they're looking for, usually that's good enough if you "fit" with them.
    IT guy since 12/00

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  • FixOSGuyFixOSGuy Member Posts: 11 ■□□□□□□□□□
    Funny story: was at a customer's site and this 'MCSE' gets cornered by a manager. The manager demands to see the MCSE and the tech can't produce it. The tech is fired on the spot. That manager was very sharp and a former wrestler, not somebody you want to piss off :)
  • it_consultantit_consultant Member Posts: 1,903
    I have never bombed a technical interview, in fact the last several (its been a few years) I was offered on the spot. Really knowing your stuff is extremely important no matter what your degree or certifications say.

    I am amazed how many people don't mention using simple reference tools on the job. For example, I can't explain the ins and outs of AD authentication using Kerberos even though I am sure I learned it at one time. Frankly, the use of such knowledge can be limited. However, if I'm asked, I know that technet has a very comprehensive section of their website dedicated to kerberos. Thats where I start - and I tell the interviewer that.
  • AhriakinAhriakin SupremeNetworkOverlord Member Posts: 1,800 ■■■■■■■■□□
    I had a supposed CCNP tell me flat out that you don't put IP addresses on routers since they route transit traffic and don't need ones of their own icon_rolleyes.gif

    Nowadays I do a quick 30 min phonescreen to cover some basics and their resume and then it's straight into a remote CLI based lab. It's open book on their side so it doesn't get caught up in the minutiae that verbal questioning can, they can either walk the walk or limp away.
    We responded to the Year 2000 issue with "Y2K" solutions...isn't this the kind of thinking that got us into trouble in the first place?
  • instant000instant000 Member Posts: 1,745
    Ahriakin wrote: »
    I had a supposed CCNP tell me flat out that you don't put IP addresses on routers since they route transit traffic and don't need ones of their own icon_rolleyes.gif

    Nowadays I do a quick 30 min phonescreen to cover some basics and their resume and then it's straight into a remote CLI based lab. It's open book on their side so it doesn't get caught up in the minutiae that verbal questioning can, they can either walk the walk or limp away.

    At first, I thought this was something about "ip unnumbered". But, it's not, so ... I'm not sure how a layer 3 device can communicate across Layer 3, when it doesn't have a layer 3 address ... but I think that was your point, right?

    Then again, I'm not a CCNP, but that kind of makes this person look even worse.

    This is in the same realm as the people I've heard say (multiple people) that they turn off spanning tree, because they do not understand it ... rather than looking up what it is ... preventing those loops can be a good thing, I always thought ...
    Currently Working: CCIE R&S
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  • RobertKaucherRobertKaucher Member Posts: 4,298 ■■■■■■■■■■
    I've had similar experiences in my hiring. But I want to say it should not be any one question that kills a candidates chances. I will tell you right now that I have Linux+ but I deal with our Linux systems about once a month. I no longer use it at home and I could certainly configure the IP address on a laptop but I might stumble while doing it via the command line.

    I could not give a detailed explanation of Kerberos delegated authentication even though I have configured it multiple times for SQL Server and SharePoint using ISA. It is just not important for me to remember that stuff. My brain cells are better spent on knowing how to implement the IConvertable interface in C# or how to perform a reursive query using T-SQL's CTEs.

    That being said, I am a firm believer in prepping for your interview and reviewing the things on your resume that you have listed which may be important to the current position but that you might not have the best command over.

    The candidate should know the things they will be expected to do or claim they do on regular basis cold. But if the person is a Windows admin who is applying for a Windows admin position but has Linux+ listed on his resume and he achieved the cert 3 years ago and never touched it since - he should not be expected to feel confident displaying his highly rusty knowledge. At my previous job a person who had taken Linux+ 3 years ago and had no real world knowledge since then would have been a fine choice as a replacement for me. It would be easier for that guy to brush up on his skills than a total newbie to learn on the job.
  • Forsaken_GAForsaken_GA Member Posts: 4,024
    I've had similar experiences in my hiring. But I want to say it should not be any one question that kills a candidates chances. |

    Agree with this entirely. There should be no such thing as a silver bullet in the interview process. If a candidate kills themselves, it should be death by a thousand cuts.
  • instant000instant000 Member Posts: 1,745
    Agree with this entirely. There should be no such thing as a silver bullet in the interview process. If a candidate kills themselves, it should be death by a thousand cuts.

    I can understand that someone might not know everything, and I can understand that a person can "lock up" during the interview process and forget things they know stone cold. But, to confidently say things that are blatantly wrong, instead of admitting that you don't know it, IS WRONG, on both a technical, and on an ethical level. I do not want to work with someone who is LYING to me.

    Scenario:

    Interview:
    Q: Do you know how to back up SQL database?
    A: Of course, I'm a MCDBA/MCITP and I have ten years experience backing up and restoring SQL databases on SQL 7, 2000, 2005, and 2008.

    First week at work:
    Q: New hire backup admin guy, did you get those DB servers backed up?
    A: Sure did boss! I have it on an automatic schedule. in software product LKM.

    One week later ...

    Q: New hire backup admin guy, I need to recover some tables from date XYZ on the ABC DB server.
    A: ??????

    EDIT: Just realized the quote that I used is not being refuted by my posting ...
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  • rsuttonrsutton Member Posts: 1,029 ■■■■■□□□□□
    instant000 wrote: »
    I can understand that someone might not know everything, and I can understand that a person can "lock up" during the interview process and forget things they know stone cold. But, to confidently say things that are blatantly wrong, instead of admitting that you don't know it, IS WRONG, on both a technical, and on an ethical level. I do not want to work with someone who is LYING to me.

    Completely agree. Admitting you do not know something takes courage, but the reward is trust, which is of much higher value.
  • tpatt100tpatt100 Member Posts: 2,991 ■■■■■■■■■□
    I have had to try and "not" get a job during a couple of interviews being too honest. I think the techs on the interview panel liked it because they threw me softballs while the manager would ask me stuff he found online and I already memorized the answers to. I don't like to b.s.and or candy coat my experience. I will go into great detail on what I can and cannot do and explain how I would find the answer. I always say "I am asking a lot of questions because I want to make sure I can do the job you are hiring for and not waste your time". It's worked to my advantage at a couple of jobs being brutally honest since I think they might think I would be easy to get along with.
  • RobertKaucherRobertKaucher Member Posts: 4,298 ■■■■■■■■■■
    instant000 wrote: »
    I can understand that someone might not know everything, and I can understand that a person can "lock up" during the interview process and forget things they know stone cold. But, to confidently say things that are blatantly wrong, instead of admitting that you don't know it, IS WRONG, on both a technical, and on an ethical level. I do not want to work with someone who is LYING to me.

    It is your job in the interview to find out, to the best time permits, what the extent of the candidate's knowledge. If that conversation was how things actually went the fault is on the interviewer's head for not asking questions like: What is the T-SQL syntax for performing a backup and restore to/from disk? How would you restore a specific x (table, database to a point in time, etc)?

    Also, new guys should be trusted, but verified on almost everything they say and do.

    But Forsaken is right, the interview should be like an adaptive exam. Start easy, if the guy gets it right go to a hard question on the same topic, if he gets it wrong try something midlevel. If he gets the easy wrong keep asking ralatively easy questions until he wishes he had never met you.
  • eansdadeansdad Member Posts: 775 ■■■■□□□□□□
    So, just how much should you know before listing something on your resume? Case in point, I have written some scripts in vb but only know basics. Should vb be listed as a skill?
  • RobertKaucherRobertKaucher Member Posts: 4,298 ■■■■■■■■■■
    eansdad wrote: »
    So, just how much should you know before listing something on your resume? Case in point, I have written some scripts in vb but only know basics. Should vb be listed as a skill?

    skill –noun
    1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
    2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
    3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

    Are you skilled at it (competent) or do you have to Google everything beyond "Hello Word"? I have a section in my resumes for things that I have exposure to but at which I am not skilled (Java, PHP, MySQL).
  • instant000instant000 Member Posts: 1,745
    It is your job in the interview to find out, to the best time permits, what the extent of the candidate's knowledge. If that conversation was how things actually went the fault is on the interviewer's head for not asking questions like: What is the T-SQL syntax for performing a backup and restore to/from disk? How would you restore a specific x (table, database to a point in time, etc)?

    Also, new guys should be trusted, but verified on almost everything they say and do.

    But Forsaken is right, the interview should be like an adaptive exam. Start easy, if the guy gets it right go to a hard question on the same topic, if he gets it wrong try something midlevel. If he gets the easy wrong keep asking ralatively easy questions until he wishes he had never met you.

    RobertKaucher:

    You are correct in that the questions aren't detailed enough, but I'm not going to pretend to be an SQL expert. (As you appear to be.) In my case, if I was answering that question, I would admit what my limitations were. I guess I can read that like a devil's advocate, and say that I did not grill the person well enough (which would be true, as the interviewer asked something general, when he/she actually needed something specific). Hopefully, I would not be tasked to interview a DB person, LOL, as I apparently failed horribly at it (admitting my lack of knowledge here).

    I've had a case of a guy getting hired as a DBA (had great MS-SQL skills) but, unfortunately, our ERP was running on Oracle. So, yes, some of the foundations of database management could transfer over, but if you dig into that stuff enough (MS vs. Oracle), you realize that there are some differences (SQL syntax for one) as well as differences in management tools, etc. that requires some setting up. As well as architectural differences, like those tablespaces, the table files, etc. (I say again, I'm not a guru.)

    Eventually, it did turn out that the brilliant MS-SQL DBA was eventually let go, as his Oracle skills were not "up to par" and this was one of those cases where the guy was completely honest that he did not have superb Oracle skills (you don't get those overnight, last I heard), but, yeah, maybe he should have been smart enough to turn the job offer down. Kind of a sad story, but he apparently found lots of consulting work for MS-SQL after he left, so maybe he got the last laugh in the end.
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