Cost of Education and the Value associated with it

Hi Everyone,

I want to make out that I do not think college is worthless and I would appreciate it if we can keep this discussion as civil as possible. Students seeking an education should not have to be in debt for 30 years just because they want to improve themselves.

So this morning (7:20 am roughly) I got into a random debate on Facebook about this issue regarding cost of education. First I did not have my cup of coffee so I most likely could have made my arguments better and I just woke up but this topic just gets on my nerves. I could have made a better debate but I want to know what you guys think.

Attached is the debate I had with an individual I went to school with and now he is teaching at the college (and also got the last half of his education for free and can go to Penn state for 75% off for a masters degree). He also does technical work at the college.

my overall point is that teachers at my college (most of them not all) gave me and many other students the impression that they knew very little about IT and its current state. The education provided by them was worthless and if I Did not take the network academy, or other IT / Non IT based classes that I knew were worth it then I would have regretted the overall experience.

I had a comment a while ago on Facebook about the tuition cost was going up and I said that instead of increasing tuition costs they should cut professors pay.

btw some of the professors I mention did not even work in the field or they did but it was so long ago that they keep teaching old information and not keeping up with the new.

EDIT

Plus think about this:
. The pay of professors. Why increase tuition on students when professors make a ton of money and can easily cut back? Or some even get pay increases. This part really disturbs me because you are teaching! How difficult is it really to teach students that warrant high double figures to triple figure salaries?

Debate.doc

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Comments

NOC-Ninja

I read half way. it was just too long.

What about CCIE with no college degree's making more than 100k? Heck I personally work with a CCVP that makes more than 100k with no college degree.

Is college over rated? YES!!!!!
If I can go back to my past, I will slap my face and tell to myself dont go to college, invest in CCIE rack/lab and by 25 I will be a CCIE. Not a guy that is working with all this NP's certifications and still doesnt get paid more than 100k.

Reality is, what ever school you go to, they will not teach what the real world is and CISCO or other high level certs almost teaches the real world.

School/ University aka PHD doesnt know what the hell they are talking about. They are not sync with the real world. Seriously, why do I need to learn about arts and all the BS if I dont need that in NOC or infosec?

Check out all the hackers, infosec guys. Most of them dont even have degrees. There's even an article of a kid that is really good in computers. He said he wont go to college because its not going to help him.

Personally, everything i learned in college did not help me that much in the job.

US educational system should turn into Cuba. In Cuba, there's no highschool. You jump to college right away thats why the kids become the best in the real world in such a young age.

Example:

AACSB University = MBA = student loan more than 60k - 100K and its not sure you are going to get paid 100K a year.
2 years if you have Bachelors
6 years without BS

CCIE = lab (10k-15k investment) = more than 100k + salary
2-3 years investment

Bl8ckr0uter

This thread will probably catch fire and end up getting locked.

I will say this and I will try to stay out. I think College isn't worthless so long as you are actually getting educated and networking. I also think that the cost of college is just too damn high. I think everyone in the country should server 4-6 years in the army then get college for free (up to BS/MS level).

IT is different. IT is extrememly hands on and is more "trade like" in nature. Just like automotive work. Do you think I give a care about my mechanic having a BS? I do care that he is a certified Master tech though. That holds weight to me. I will also state that I make more money than most of my friends with BA/BS degrees AND some with MA/MS degrees.

I will get my AAS in about a year from now and my BS sometime after but I'll be damn if I go for anything besides a MBA from an IVY league school after that. I also don't plan on spending 100k to get a degree. I will go to school debt free and leave debt free.

higherho

I just think that the people who do choose to go to college should not be paying so much money for the education (IT related) when the value is not their. No one wants to see a pay decrease but when they get so many benefits (Free schooling, etc) who pays for it? The students and I honestly think "teaching" people should not warrant a 70k pay check regardless of your past accomplishments.

@bl8ck

I hope it does not get locked, I wanted a civil debate on the issue but it just blows my mind away on how much students suffer with debt. I think College helped me out a lot in many issues / situations and I enjoied thet fact that I went. I do not think college is worthless either I will put that in the opening post. I also think learning about project deisgn / buisness aspect is important which is one of the major reasons why I went to college and that was worth it.

I added the following statement:

I want to make out that I do not think college is worthless and I would appreciate it if we can keep this disucssion as civil as possible. Students seeking an education should not have to be in debt for 30 years just because they want to improve themselves.

WafflesAndRootbeer

higherho wrote: »

I agree with you NOC. I just think that the people who do choose to go to college should not be paying so much money for the education (IT related) when the value is not their. No one wants to see a pay decrease but when they get so many benefits (Free schooling, etc) who pays for it? The students and I honestly think "teaching" people should not warrant a 70k pay check regardless of your past accomplishments.

@bl8ck

I hope it does not get locked, I wanted a civil debate on the issue but it just blows my mind away on how much students suffer with debt.

Speaking of absurd teacher's salaries, I knew a programming teacher who got paid 100K to teach programming classes after having taken some through the university and had no experience as a professional programmer, got sacked because he sucked, but was kept on to train faculty at 100K. I think the academic world is just screwed up.

Bl8ckr0uter

I remember reading this article when it came out. Very true.

The Question You're Not Asking: Should You Go To College? | Cracked.com

hackman2007

I hope this thread doesn't get locked either. But I will share a bit about my story.

I did go to college and for the most part, the things I learned were worthless and probably won't translate in to the "real world". But, I don't think the point of college is to immediately land you that awesome 100K job. It shows an employer that you are dedicated towards finishing something. When I tried applying for jobs while I was in college, I didn't get a single interview. Not one. I do have experience and had two certifications, but got no interest at all.

7 days out of college (including the interview day), I have a very nice job, full benefits, etc in IT.

Was my education worth it? I don't know. I know the company I work for requires a BS degree (as do most of the other companies around here). I am in debt with student loans though (about 30K).

higherho

hackman2007 wrote: »

I hope this thread doesn't get locked either. But I will share a bit about my story.

I did go to college and for the most part, the things I learned were worthless and probably won't translate in to the "real world". But, I don't think the point of college is to immediately land you that awesome 100K job. It shows an employer that you are dedicated towards finishing something. When I tried applying for jobs while I was in college, I didn't get a single interview. Not one. I do have experience and had two certifications, but got no interest at all.

7 days out of college (including the interview day), I have a very nice job, full benefits, etc in IT.

Was my education worth it? I don't know. I know the company I work for requires a BS degree (as do most of the other companies around here). I am in debt with student loans though (about 30K).

see at my school the IT teaches were teaching "this will translate when you go out into the real world" and of course their IT stuff they were teaching was outdated. If I did not take the Cisco course or teach myself I would have been in trouble.

What did translate into the real world was the business aspect of IT and design aspect. Which is why I deiced to get an MBA more so than a Masters in IT.

You are right, the point of the degree is to show the employer that you can take on such a huge task (4 years of your life) and complete it. Shows you are competent and your ability to learn is quite high and shows that you want to learn.

cxzar20

It all depends. I went to a good tech school for my MS after getting a non-technical undergraduate degree (accounting) and I wouldn't be where I am now without it. If you go to most schools you will learn a lot of topics that are not directly relevant, however if you pick the right school (RIT, Rensselaer, Carnegie Mellon, etc.) then you will learn the topics necessary to advance your career. In my experience we went deep into Linux, Cisco AND Juniper, etc. to get hands on. College also lets you diversify your skill set so you aren't one dimensional. Sure your CCIE makes you a Cisco expert, but what does that do if you apply to a Juniper shop? What if you can't relocate and the only jobs in your area are for Linux Systems Administration?

You can quote people all you want making six figures without a degree, they almost certainly had connections or more likely entered the work force in an era where one wasn't necessary. Do you think some company is going to hire a guy who plays with computers on the side with no degree when competing against someone from college in todays economy? Fat chance. If you are lucky enough to even get an interview, what kind of jobs will you get with no degree? You will be starting out at the bottom making $10-$15 an hour (depending on location and company). How will you afford CCIE prep on that salary? You are talking about 3 years (minimum) on the certification which when you factor in the cost of home lab, books, boot camps, lab attempts and travel, could easily top $20-$30k. You are going to afford that on a help desk salary? Fat chance. When my Chief Engineer asks me to help out with looking over resumes for open positions I rarely give an applicant a serious look if they don't have some kind of balance between education, experience, and certifications.

Take a look at dice and note how many won't even consider you without a degree. Is college worth it? Depends on where, how much, and what courses are involved.

higherho

I just want to reinstate that this is talking about the amoutn of debt and tution costs associated with the education.

cxzar20 wrote: »

It all depends. I went to a good tech school for my MS after getting a non-technical undergraduate degree (accounting) and I wouldn't be where I am now without it. If you go to most schools you will learn a lot of topics that are not directly relevant, however if you pick the right school (RIT, Rensselaer, Carnegie Mellon, etc.) then you will learn the topics necessary to advance your career. In my experience we went deep into Linux, Cisco AND Juniper, etc. to get hands on. College also lets you diversify your skill set so you aren't one dimensional. Sure your CCIE makes you a Cisco expert, but what does that do if you apply to a Juniper shop? What if you can't relocate and the only jobs in your area are for Linux Systems Administration?

You can quote people all you want making six figures without a degree, they almost certainly had connections or more likely entered the work force in an era where one wasn't necessary. Do you think some company is going to hire a guy who plays with computers on the side with no degree when competing against someone from college in todays economy? Fat chance. If you are lucky enough to even get an interview, what kind of jobs will you get with no degree? You will be starting out at the bottom making $10-$15 an hour (depending on location and company). How will you afford CCIE prep on that salary? You are talking about 3 years (minimum) on the certification which when you factor in the cost of home lab, books, boot camps, lab attempts and travel, could easily top $20-$30k. You are going to afford that on a help desk salary? Fat chance. When my Chief Engineer asks me to help out with looking over resumes for open positions I rarely give an applicant a serious look if they don't have some kind of balance between education, experience, and certifications.

Take a look at dice and note how many won't even consider you without a degree. Is college worth it? Depends on where, how much, and what courses are involved.

Yea, this is why I went to my school because it was a technical college (Cisco, linux, etc) but how a majority of the classes were taught was making it not worth it. I also went to allow myself not to be one dimensional either (one reason why I love Systems Administration/ Engineering).

But can and should a student be forced to pay back 100k in student debt just because he wanted to expand? Its turning into a corrupt system.

NOC-Ninja

cxzar20 wrote: »

It all depends. I went to a good tech school for my MS after getting a non-technical undergraduate degree (accounting) and I wouldn't be where I am now without it. If you go to most schools you will learn a lot of topics that are not directly relevant, however if you pick the right school (RIT, Rensselaer, Carnegie Mellon, etc.) then you will learn the topics necessary to advance your career. In my experience we went deep into Linux, Cisco AND Juniper, etc. to get hands on. College also lets you diversify your skill set so you aren't one dimensional. Sure your CCIE makes you a Cisco expert, but what does that do if you apply to a Juniper shop? What if you can't relocate and the only jobs in your area are for Linux Systems Administration?

You can quote people all you want making six figures without a degree, they almost certainly had connections or more likely entered the work force in an era where one wasn't necessary. Do you think some company is going to hire a guy who plays with computers on the side with no degree when competing against someone from college in todays economy? Fat chance. If you are lucky enough to even get an interview, what kind of jobs will you get with no degree? You will be starting out at the bottom making $10-$15 an hour (depending on location and company). How will you afford CCIE prep on that salary? You are talking about 3 years (minimum) on the certification which when you factor in the cost of home lab, books, boot camps, lab attempts and travel, could easily top $20-$30k. You are going to afford that on a help desk salary? Fat chance. When my Chief Engineer asks me to help out with looking over resumes for open positions I rarely give an applicant a serious look if they don't have some kind of balance between education, experience, and certifications.

Take a look at dice and note how many won't even consider you without a degree. Is college worth it? Depends on where, how much, and what courses are involved.

20-30k? thats why theres ebay and credit card loan. If you parents are helpful then they will support the kid.

Now its your choice, if you dont want to hire a CCIE. However there will be companies out there that needs a CCIE for partnership or deploying. Im not talking about fake CCIE but Real CCIE's.

What kind of jobs will hire you without degree? My job will. They will definitely hire someone that has a CCIE rather than someone that has a Masters in Telecommunications.

what does that do if you apply to a Juniper shop? What if you can't relocate and the only jobs in your area are for Linux Systems Administration?
Why would you apply on a Juniper shop if you are a Cisco certified? Cisco still dominate the Switches and Routers Market.

hackman2007

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

20-30k? thats why theres ebay and credit card loan. If you parents are helpful then they will support the kid.

Now its your choice, if you dont want to hire a CCIE. However there will be companies out there that needs a CCIE for partnership or deploying. Im not talking about fake CCIE but Real CCIE's.

What kind of jobs will hire you without degree? My job will. They will definitely hire someone that has a CCIE rather than someone that has a Masters in Telecommunications.

what does that do if you apply to a Juniper shop? What if you can't relocate and the only jobs in your area are for Linux Systems Administration?
Why would you apply on a Juniper shop if you are a Cisco certified? Cisco still dominate the Switches and Routers Market.

I don't know about the other person's family, but my parents couldn't afford to send me to college without loans and I have nothing to sell. And most people that I know are the same way. It costs a lot of money per year.

I have seen positions that desire a CCIE, but I haven't come across any (at least around here in Missouri) that will take a CCIE with no college degree.

But as with anything YMMV.

cxzar20

If I am hiring someone, especially for a senior level position, I need to make sure they know a lot more than intricate details of RFC 2328. What good is having expert knowledge of LSA type 7 if you can't do basic accounting for pre sales? Most companies look to hire well rounded people for IT as it has become very much a business function. The right college will give you a diverse skill set.

With that being said it doesn't make sense to go $100k in debt for a degree either. A good rule of thumb is your student loan debt should be less than or equal to your expected starting salary.

hackman2007

cxzar20 wrote: »

If I am hiring someone, especially for a senior level position, I need to make sure they know a lot more than intricate details of RFC 2328. What good is having expert knowledge of LSA type 7 if you can't do basic accounting for pre sales? Most companies look to hire well rounded people for IT as it has become very much a business function. The right college will give you a diverse skill set.

With that being said it doesn't make sense to go $100k in debt for a degree either. A good rule of thumb is your student loan debt should be less than or equal to your expected starting salary.

I agree, 100K is just silly. If you are going in to IT and it requires that much of an investment, you need a different plan.

I know if college didn't work out for me, I would have gone in to the military. While I don't know much about the military, I know several places (including the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc) love to hire people with military backgrounds. And it's not just the government-level organizations either. I know when I was job searching, I came across several companies that desired (though not required) military experience.

Zaits

http://www.richland2.org/lib/images/Schools/SVH/Departments/Guidance/EducationPays_clip_image001.jpg?n=4547

Contest over.

(No idea how legit the stats are I spent 12 seconds on finding it and its 2008..)

higherho

IT is defiantly a business and being well rounded in that aspect helped me alot. I can foresee project manager positions in my future simply because that I took business very seriously in college / masters when it comes to IT.

Plus I think people are missing out on another point in this debate. The pay of professors. Why increase tuition on students when professors make a ton of money and can easily cut back? Or some even get pay increases. This part really disturbs me because you are teaching! How difficult is it really to teach students that warrant high double figures to triple figure salaries?

hackman2007 wrote: »

I agree, 100K is just silly. If you are going in to IT and it requires that much of an investment, you need a different plan.

I know if college didn't work out for me, I would have gone in to the military. While I don't know much about the military, I know several places (including the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc) love to hire people with military backgrounds. And it's not just the government-level organizations either. I know when I was job searching, I came across several companies that desired (though not required) military experience.

Yea I have 30 k in loans in my name but my mom has 50k in her name that she took out for me to live there /tution/ etc.

The cost should never be that high, education should never be that expensive.

@Zaits

That chart is true but would you want to be in debt 80 to 100 k and that does not count interest?

shodown

It all depends on a person.

You can have a degree and not know jack
You can have certs and not know jack

One of these are cheaper than the other. There is no real way of testing skills. You have to go by references and past experience. My last company the VP of sales didn't have a degree just a HS diploma. The Director that reported to him a MBA from a Top Tier School. The director was quoted saying he learned more about Business working with him than he did his entire time in school.

While i agree with that, I also like to point out that I dont think he would have been able to apply that knowledge without going to school to learn how to learn.

Also to go in another direction he could have read books and participated in study forums where he could have prob picked up those same skills at a small percentage of the price.

In the end its all up to the person and how they sale themselves

For the guy that said what about the guy with the CCIE no degree and apply for the juniper job. Well I haven't been that exact guy, but I was a CCNP and applied for a Juniper job and got it. They didn't care that I didn't have a bunch of JUNOS experience, they cared that I knew and understood OSPF, BGP the layer 2 stuff and some MPLS.

Each individual will find a path that works for them and they can rock it till the wheels fall off. If you think a degree will work for you get it, if you think certs are your path get them. Just don't stop improving yourself no matter what path you take.

cyberguypr

Zaits wrote: »

http://www.richland2.org/lib/images/Schools/SVH/Departments/Guidance/EducationPays_clip_image001.jpg?n=4547

Contest over.

(No idea how legit the stats are I spent 12 seconds on finding it and its 2008..)

Same graphic with latest numbers.

chrisone

College education is always great!

College costs not so great

i still owe like 12 grand and my certs are the ones pulling in all the jobs.

My college degree is the one that tells HR , ok this guy is not a F**K up at least he went to school and has enough discipline to finish his studies "I will continue reading his resume."

My certs are the ones that tell HR i know how to do the job

That is the way i see it.

joneno

hackman2007 wrote: »

I agree, 100K is just silly. If you are going in to IT and it requires that much of an investment, you need a different plan.

I know if college didn't work out for me, I would have gone in to the military. While I don't know much about the military, I know several places (including the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc) love to hire people with military backgrounds. And it's not just the government-level organizations either. I know when I was job searching, I came across several companies that desired (though not required) military experience.

It all depends on where you work, location and school attended. I once replied a post about the value of education, explaining how my in law went about it. He graduated from a school in Canada, with 4.0.He took a loan close to 100k to attend HBS(Harvard Business School) full time. I really thought he was dumb. Guess what? He currently has an annual income over 180k, including bonuses from consulting, stock options, paid vacation and other perks. There are opportunities out there people, it depends on how crazy you are about money.

higherho

joneno wrote: »

It all depends on where you work, location and school attended. I once replied a post about the value of education, explaining how my in law went about it. He graduated from a school in Canada, with 4.0.He took a loan close to 100k to attend HBS(Harvard Business School) full time. I really thought he was dumb. Guess what? He currently has an annual income over 180k, including bonuses from consulting, stock options, paid vacation and other perks. There are opportunities out there people, it depends on how crazy you are about money.

One thing is for sure if you are going to HBS I'm sure that person defiantly has a plan and business / small business is a great way to make cash. Companies will hire those people on the spot if the job market their needs it.

I'm strictly talking about Information Technology and how that correlates to our discussion. Do you see IT people making 180k right out of college? Its rare but I have not seen it. Do I see people in IT 15 years exp and college degree's making over 120k? o yes easily because they have the exp, education, certs.

if i went to MIT and spent 200k on an education then I would not have made this post. Because I know I would have gotten an education worthy of the money I spent into it. But not every college is MIT worthy and same with the personnel teaching in those colleges.

cxzar20

I think you are dead on with the MIT comment. While perhaps it doesn't matter as much as in law and business, it does make a difference where you get your education. Also, many times the IT degrees will give you more hands on experience with Linux and Cisco than a pure CS degree would.

higherho

cxzar20 wrote: »

I think you are dead on with the MIT comment. While perhaps it doesn't matter as much as in law and business, it does make a difference where you get your education. Also, many times the IT degrees will give you more hands on experience with Linux and Cisco than a pure CS degree would.

Yep exactly. Which then leads us into the question on how these colleges can charge 80 + K for a four year degree when its not worth it? Let me go a little deeper into it. MY college had a lot of big names with the automotive and nursing programs and chef programs. Disney hired alot of chef's from our school, Toyota , ford, Chevy always came to our school for the students and same with big time hospitals.

What about the IT program? Where is google , dell, or HP? down Penn State not at their technical arm college. Many students went out and got really successful but most of those people did it themselves (meaning they taught themselves) or through the Cisco networking academy. Most of the students complained for years about the IT staff ( the majority of the staff) and some of the great IT teachers left the college back in 2007 because they saw how it was headed.

So with this creditability should I still have to pay that crazy 80k for the full college experience? thats were I told the guy I was debating with that the value was not there and if I did not take the business side / Cisco courses I would have quite the college completely.

NOC-Ninja

hackman2007 wrote: »

I don't know about the other person's family, but my parents couldn't afford to send me to college without loans and I have nothing to sell. And most people that I know are the same way. It costs a lot of money per year.

I have seen positions that desire a CCIE, but I haven't come across any (at least around here in Missouri) that will take a CCIE with no college degree.

But as with anything YMMV.

Same way. my family didnt have money to support me but I couldve use loans to get CCIE lab before if I only knew it. Furthermore, I still have student loans from my B.S. degree.

it_consultant

You have to look at this with a certain grain of salt when it comes to IT. It is no secret I think that IT should be an apprenticed craft mainly because I see people come out with college degrees that literally know nothing about this field. That is not their fault, but it spoils the meaning of a degree when they people who earn it are not able to execute basic tasks of the job they are expected to enter.

If you want to be a biologist, there is no way that you can be apprenticed into that, you need to go to the University and study biology for 4-6 years. Same thing with engineering, architecture, etc.

Did you know that you don't actually need a law degree to practice law? You need to pass the bar and work under a lawyer for about a year depending on the state you are in. That is because besides the procedural stuff, all of what lawyers learn in law school can be easily found in your public library, you just have to read it.

aethereos

I see both sides of the argument, but note that unless there is substantial evidence please don't jump your conclusion. If you know of one or few people who did x and achieved y, that doesn't speak for all the rest. They are always few exceptions for the college route in IT, and for certification route as well.

I will always advocate for institutions of higher learning. I also know the system is somewhat tainted for many reasons, but to say that you can skip college is absurd. Few people instintively *know* what they want to do with their lives. College is that place where you experiment with things and see what works or doesn't. Instead of saying you should or shouldn't go to college because of costs, try to fix the issue at its root: speak loud and clear together against unreasonable tuition increases to all the administrators. We can change the system instead of avoiding it.

All the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg's of the world will always be exceptions and not the norms, and they too have their support team of highly educated people. If you have some time, check out this essay. The author eloquently argues why we need universities:

Orestes Brownson Society - Necessity of Liberal Education

cxzar20

I knew someone from Penn State that got hired on full time into TAC when I was an an intern in CA but he may have been an anomaly. At my school we had Cisco, Google, Apple and Microsoft doing on campus interviews at least once a semester in addition to the career fairs.

it_consultant

aethereos wrote: »

I see both sides of the argument, but note that unless there is substantial evidence please don't jump your conclusion. If you know of one or few people who did x and achieved y, that doesn't speak for all the rest. They are always few exceptions for the college route in IT, and for certification route as well.

I will always advocate for institutions of higher learning. I also know the system is somewhat tainted for many reasons, but to say that you can skip college is absurd. Few people instintively *know* what they want to do with their lives. College is that place where you experiment with things and see what works or doesn't. Instead of saying you should or shouldn't go to college because of costs, try to fix the issue at its root: speak loud and clear together against unreasonable tuition increases to all the administrators. We can change the system instead of avoiding it.

All the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg's of the world will always be exceptions and not the norms, and they too have their support team of highly educated people. If you have some time, check out this essay. The author eloquently argues why we need universities:

Orestes Brownson Society - Necessity of Liberal Education

I love the idea of a Liberal Arts education, it is how my K-12 (I went to private school) was designed and even thought I don't have a bachelors degree I have spent many years "figuring things out" if you will. The unfortunate fact is that there are relatively few college degrees that actually pay for themselves. The ones that do Americans are not majoring in because they are 'hard'.

We used to have a real apprenticeship / vocational training in this country where people were trained for high paying jobs that were skill based. IT is skill based. Now we have a whole generation of people (I am in it) that have an automatic expectation that college it he route one must go. We had it beaten in our heads that we MUST go to college. No you don't, you need to have a skill.

This has the potential to turn into a discussion about secondary school tracking etc. that is not applicable to his board. We don't tell kids that it is OK to be a plumber or a transmission mechanic. I know Audi mechanics that I would have to get my MBA with a finance specialty in order to catch up too in salary. Should my Audi mechanic friends go to college?

higherho

aethereos wrote: »

I see both sides of the argument, but note that unless there is substantial evidence please don't jump your conclusion. If you know of one or few people who did x and achieved y, that doesn't speak for all the rest. They are always few exceptions for the college route in IT, and for certification route as well.

I will always advocate for institutions of higher learning. I also know the system is somewhat tainted for many reasons, but to say that you can skip college is absurd. Few people instintively *know* what they want to do with their lives. College is that place where you experiment with things and see what works or doesn't. Instead of saying you should or shouldn't go to college because of costs, try to fix the issue at its root: speak loud and clear together against unreasonable tuition increases to all the administrators. We can change the system instead of avoiding it.

All the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg's of the world will always be exceptions and not the norms, and they too have their support team of highly educated people. If you have some time, check out this essay. The author eloquently argues why we need universities:

Orestes Brownson Society - Necessity of Liberal Education

During the last two years of my college. We got together over half of the IT students always coming to the staff and then to the dean and then even to the school meetings talking about the cost is so high that its absurd. Not to mention that the cost they ask for and how the teachings occur. We spoke loud but when you are against teachers with tenure, and when you are against a school who spends alot of money into investing into the campus / backbone and they need something to pay that off (aka tuition) they will run you over with a bus.

The only way to truly get to this people is with your hard earned cash. This past year the IT department enrollments dropped over 15%. That opened their eyes and got them to change their Networking program to reflect current standards / certifications.

I will never tell anyone to skip college. I honestly think its foolish to do so but if its not your path then its not your path but to tell anyone college is not worth it is just incorrect.

@CX

That is awesome. Sadly our IT staff never reached out to them to offer them to come to our school and show off what we have =/

aethereos

T[FONT=&quot]he administrators of today's schools are baby boomers who in their life times haven't really had a major economical crisis of this scale that grips the whole world. I don't think they know what the problem really is with rising tuition, or how to solve it. Their retirement years are not far off, and I'd argue that's on their mind more than how Joe and Jane Jr are going to pay their college fees next quarter. So the issue is both personal and societal, at the expense of up-and-coming professionals of any field. We inherit of some of their successes and all of their failures.[/FONT]

aethereos

it_consultant wrote: »

I know Audi mechanics that I would have to get my MBA with a finance specialty in order to catch up too in salary. Should my Audi mechanic friends go to college?

That's assuming going to college was a compromise. If college was affordable and decent, would you tell them NOT to go?