CCNA isn't sufficient?

Eildor

Now, I'm planning on taking my CCNA very soon (just going over everything one last time) but I've also been looking at various job listings, and it would seem that employers want a HUGE amount of other skills/experience. They ask for MCSA, Juniper, VOIP, experience with VPN and the list goes on. Now, I have no problem getting CCNA, I'd consider getting CCNP... but what about all this other stuff employers want?

odysseyelite

I've seen that too. A lot of places the network admin and the system admin are the one and the same. Its good to know other technolgies as well. Where I work, we have a network admin and knows nothing about windows. In some places the network admin may also administrate the windows DHCP and DNS servers.

alan2308

If their network contains Juniper, VoIP, VPN, etc., then is it really that unreasonable that they ask for someone who knows about Juniper, VoIP, VPN, etc? They're not going to hire a Cisco guy, a Juniper guy, and a VPN guy if the work load doesn't justify that many people.

Or to look at this another way, can you really expect to get by with only Cisco router and switch skills if the network doesn't contain only Cisco routers and switches? You may be in the wrong field if you're that adverse to learning things outside of your comfort zone.

Eildor

alan2308 wrote: »

If their network contains Juniper, VoIP, VPN, etc., then is it really that unreasonable that they ask for someone who knows about Juniper, VoIP, VPN, etc? They're not going to hire a Cisco guy, a Juniper guy, and a VPN guy if the work load doesn't justify that many people.

Or to look at this another way, can you really expect to get by with only Cisco router and switch skills if the network doesn't contain only Cisco routers and switches? You may be in the wrong field if you're that adverse to learning things outside of your comfort zone.

Sure, I can understand that, and I'm quite happy to learn about things outside of the Cisco certifications -- but to be an knowledgeable in such a variety of technologies is going to take YEARS, and I only have about 2 years left of my degree until I need to get out there and get a job.

I'm just wondering whether it's worth getting the certs, or instead learning a bit about the technologies that are necessary. For example, do I really need to spend a year on getting an MCSE? Or would I be better off just learning the basics of Windows Server instead?

alan2308

Eildor wrote: »

Sure, I can understand that, and I'm quite happy to learn about things outside of the Cisco certifications -- but to be an knowledgeable in such a variety of technologies is going to take YEARS, and I only have about 2 years left of my degree until I need to get out there and get a job.

I'm just wondering whether it's worth getting the certs, or instead learning a bit about the technologies that are necessary. For example, do I really need to spend a year on getting an MCSE? Or would I be better off just learning the basics of Windows Server instead?

If I'm not going to be a Windows Server guy, there's no way I'm spending the time and money on all the exams needed for the MCSE or the MCITP. But what you can do is load Windows Server on something, setup Active Directory, and join all of your other computers to the domain, and force yourself to do everything the Microsoft way. I don't have any MS certs, but I do know my way around an Active Directory domain. Hyper-V has really become a great friend of mine since I have access to nearly everything MS makes through my MSDN-AA account.

Learn the basic skills now. The certs can come later when you're done with school and in a better place financially to afford all the ones you need. A degree and a CCNA will let you get your foot in the door somewhere.

Eildor

Thanks for all your advice; much appreciated.

Turgon

Eildor wrote: »

Now, I'm planning on taking my CCNA very soon (just going over everything one last time) but I've also been looking at various job listings, and it would seem that employers want a HUGE amount of other skills/experience. They ask for MCSA, Juniper, VOIP, experience with VPN and the list goes on. Now, I have no problem getting CCNA, I'd consider getting CCNP... but what about all this other stuff employers want?

Do what I did. Go contracting for 5 years working for a number of different companies, preferably large ones. They have a constant churn of upgrade and migration projects that will give you experience and exposure. These will have a lead designer who will give you pieces of work you can do and make a contribution towards. You can pick up a few certifications on your own time to cement the knowledge and fill in the gaps.

Then go permanent and land a great job.

Eildor

Turgon wrote: »

Do what I did. Go contracting for 5 years working for a number of different companies, preferably large ones. They have a constant churn of upgrade and migration projects that will give you experience and exposure. These will have a lead designer who will give you pieces of work you can do and make a contribution towards. You can pick up a few certifications on your own time to cement the knowledge and fill in the gaps.

Then go permanent and land a great job.

Sounds like good advice.

In the meantime, what should I study after CCNA? I have 2 years left in education, and plenty of time to study whatever is needed. What are the key technologies I should be learning about?

Turgon

Eildor wrote: »

Sounds like good advice.

In the meantime, what should I study after CCNA? I have 2 years left in education, and plenty of time to study whatever is needed. What are the key technologies I should be learning about?

Firewalls/Load balancers/MPLS/VPN/WAN/Switching

Eildor

Turgon wrote: »

Firewalls/Load balancers/MPLS/VPN/WAN/Switching

How much knowledge would you say I'd need to have of the above technologies? Would it be equal to the amount of content in CCNA? Or CCNP perhaps?

Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, just want to have an idea how much studying is involved so I can plan on what to do over the next 2 years.

MT0911

Eildor wrote: »

How much knowledge would you say I'd need to have of the above technologies? Would it be equal to the amount of content in CCNA? Or CCNP perhaps?

Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, just want to have an idea how much studying is involved so I can plan on what to do over the next 2 years.

There's never too much to learn on these topics. They can get very deep. I would suggest go and read through the exam objectives on the Cisco website and familiarize yourself with them. If you can confidently read through those objectives and strongly say you have the skills to complete it then you are ready. It's always good to study outside of the box to get a more well-rounded point of view on each topic but in regards to the exam the objectives are really where your focus should be. Good luck!

Turgon

Eildor wrote: »

How much knowledge would you say I'd need to have of the above technologies? Would it be equal to the amount of content in CCNA? Or CCNP perhaps?

Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, just want to have an idea how much studying is involved so I can plan on what to do over the next 2 years.

Grab some books, use GNS, buy used off ebay, build a checkpoint server at home, use evals. You want to learn how to basically set up a device and how to basically admin a device. The rest you learn on the job, backfilled with certifications in the evenings. When hiring at the level you are looking at an employer needs to trust that you will pay attention, follow process, ask when unsure and with minimal instruction be competant with a box. The rest is down to you, apply yourself.

Eildor

I've decided to go ahead with the CCNP, whilst at the same time learning about all the other technologies. If I can get my CCNP within 6 months, that still leaves me with a year and a half to learn the basics of all the other stuff (well, at least I hope it does). And yup you're right Turgon, there's no need for me to learn everything, a lot of it would be learnt on the job -- every company is different and uses different technologies, so you'll never know EVERYTHING.

Turgon

Eildor wrote: »

I've decided to go ahead with the CCNP, whilst at the same time learning about all the other technologies. If I can get my CCNP within 6 months, that still leaves me with a year and a half to learn the basics of all the other stuff (well, at least I hope it does). And yup you're right Turgon, there's no need for me to learn everything, a lot of it would be learnt on the job -- every company is different and uses different technologies, so you'll never know EVERYTHING.

You will never know everything. I know a great deal but not everything and have had a great career to date. Just work hard.

Todd Burrell

You could also look into getting just your MCSA. From what I remember the MCSA only requires 4 exams - and the 70-291 should be a total breeze if you get your CCNA. I believe you could take 70-290 and 291 and then 70-680 (Windows 7) and then CompTIA NET+ (again, should be an easy exam after CCNA).

You could probably knock this out very quickly with your network experience.

Eildor

Todd Burrell wrote: »

You could also look into getting just your MCSA. From what I remember the MCSA only requires 4 exams - and the 70-291 should be a total breeze if you get your CCNA. I believe you could take 70-290 and 291 and then 70-680 (Windows 7) and then CompTIA NET+ (again, should be an easy exam after CCNA).

You could probably knock this out very quickly with your network experience.

I'm not too sure about that, from what I've heard MCSA takes quite a while to achieve. It's something I'd consider in the future, but I think it's better for me (right now anyway) to concentrate on the networking and switching side of things.

odysseyelite

MCSA is not to bad to achieve. It took me awhile, but that was because I was not studying. I used my Sec+ as the elective, and windows xp exam was pretty easy. 290 and 291 can be a bit of a challege but it is reachable.

ChooseLife

Eildor wrote: »

alan2308 wrote: »

If their network contains Juniper, VoIP, VPN, etc., then is it really that unreasonable that they ask for someone who knows about Juniper, VoIP, VPN, etc?
...

Sure, I can understand that, and I'm quite happy to learn about things outside of the Cisco certifications -- but to be an knowledgeable in such a variety of technologies is going to take YEARS, and I only have about 2 years left of my degree until I need to get out there and get a job.

The jobs that require versatile knowledge and experience (e.g. Cisco, Juniper, VoIP, VPN) are not supposed be taken by fresh graduates. One normally goes through junior positions first, builds up their experience and then advances to such jobs.

Eildor

ChooseLife wrote: »

The jobs that require versatile knowledge and experience (e.g. Cisco, Juniper, VoIP, VPN) are not supposed be taken by fresh graduates. One normally goes through junior positions first, builds up their experience and then advances to such jobs.

Yupp I guess you guys are right -- thanks!

pixelperson1

Just as with anyone looking for a job; I too have seen job postings that demand super long list of Cert requirements.

Let me pass along something that a HR pro told me.

They stated that many job postings include these long lists for a couple of reasons.

1.) The job postings are generally done by HR - They take the "Industry standards" from a genaric template and "fill in the blanks." This is due, largely to the fact that most HR people don't have a clue about Technology Certs, or what they mean.

2.) If a company posts a long laundry list you must look at a.) what is the salary, b.) what is the job title, c.) do the facts listed make sense?

3.) A huge list of Cert requirements could be a red flag. The company might be looking for one person to do tons of things for one price. Which translates into burn out if you are sucked in. Or are they looking for a supervisor type of person who would be in charge of training a crew of IT technicians?

4.) Research the company. Large or small? More than 1000 nodes? Less than 1000? Publicly traded or Private? Go on Linked In and see if you can locate a former employee and ask what they are like. Do a Google.

Finally, don't let these "crazy certification job postings" push you into doing, or not doing a certification. Target what YOU want to do. Frankly a CCNA should be a no-brainer. A room full of servers is nothing more than a bunch of expensive paper weights if they aren't connected to a network that allow information (data) to flow quickly and efficiently.

Bottom line. Do a CCNA and get it under your belt.

Eildor

pixelperson1 wrote: »

Just as with anyone looking for a job; I too have seen job postings that demand super long list of Cert requirements.

Let me pass along something that a HR pro told me.

They stated that many job postings include these long lists for a couple of reasons.

1.) The job postings are generally done by HR - They take the "Industry standards" from a genaric template and "fill in the blanks." This is due, largely to the fact that most HR people don't have a clue about Technology Certs, or what they mean.

2.) If a company posts a long laundry list you must look at a.) what is the salary, b.) what is the job title, c.) do the facts listed make sense?

3.) A huge list of Cert requirements could be a red flag. The company might be looking for one person to do tons of things for one price. Which translates into burn out if you are sucked in. Or are they looking for a supervisor type of person who would be in charge of training a crew of IT technicians?

4.) Research the company. Large or small? More than 1000 nodes? Less than 1000? Publicly traded or Private? Go on Linked In and see if you can locate a former employee and ask what they are like. Do a Google.

Finally, don't let these "crazy certification job postings" push you into doing, or not doing a certification. Target what YOU want to do. Frankly a CCNA should be a no-brainer. A room full of servers is nothing more than a bunch of expensive paper weights if they aren't connected to a network that allow information (data) to flow quickly and efficiently.

Bottom line. Do a CCNA and get it under your belt.

I think you're right. Best thing for me right now is to learn the basics, and then build my knowledge up from there. I think I'll go from CCNA to CCNP, whilst also learning the basics of security, VOIP, etc.

Suppose I want to learn about certain technologies but not necessarily go for the cert, would you still recommend I learn from the Cisco certification materials? I get the impression the Cisco certification topics aren't always very relevant for the real world... I mean, frame relay isn't used much any more, is it?

pham0329

but the concept stills applies.

I think you're over thinking this entire thing. Rather than worrying about what you're going to be learning 2 years from now, focus on the CCNA, pick up some experience and see where that takes you.

Chris_

If you want to get your CCNP, then great, it's a valuable learning experience, same goes for learning about a few key technologies that you've mentioned. But don't expect any of it to help you get anything above an entry level networking job when you finish college. It will however put you above all the other graduates looking for jobs at the same time.
The Certs are nice to have but at the end of the day experience wins every time. I don't mean to sound harsh bu I get the feeling you're not expecting or wanting to go into an entry level position - which is where all the beat network engineers start - learning the real world stuff from the bottom up.
Good luck in it all though, it can never do anyharm to learn.

Eildor

Chris_ wrote: »

If you want to get your CCNP, then great, it's a valuable learning experience, same goes for learning about a few key technologies that you've mentioned. But don't expect any of it to help you get anything above an entry level networking job when you finish college. It will however put you above all the other graduates looking for jobs at the same time.
The Certs are nice to have but at the end of the day experience wins every time. I don't mean to sound harsh bu I get the feeling you're not expecting or wanting to go into an entry level position - which is where all the beat network engineers start - learning the real world stuff from the bottom up.
Good luck in it all though, it can never do anyharm to learn.

Thank you all for your input and advice.

I'm quite aware that I'll be looking for an entry level position, and I'm fine with that. I just want to make sure I make the most of the time I have now (since I have time) so I can reap the benefits in the future, that's all

white96gt

If you have a lot of time then this would be a good opportunity to gain some experience by working in an entry level IT position. Your school should have an IT department that you might be able to help out part time. It would be better to gain some experience while in school then to continue to read books and cramming for certificates.

alxx

What white96gt said.

Get some experiance but keep up on the certs. Get them while you have the spare time and studying isn't a stuggle(to other interests/family/job etc).

Also learn a bit of programming/scripting - python or perl
Comes in very handy, especially for automating tests/checks or starting jobs or monitoring tasks.

Python for system administrators

Python_for_Unix_and_Linux_System_Administration is a pretty ueful book
Python for Unix and Linux System Administration - O'Reilly Media
Python for Unix and Linux system ... - Google Books

I don't have experiance in network administration, have a good bit in network programming (video capture) , systems and sensor systems. Mostly work on embedded systems(microcontrollers, fpgas - currently working on omap3 and 4 based systems).
Worked as an aircraft maintenance engineer for ten years. Thn got injured and went to uni, ended up working for the uni(tutoring, systems development and research). Still there working in a research lab and still slowly finishing my degree(end of next year - doing undergrad thesis at the moment)

Back doing cisco certs as I need a deeper understanding of networks even though cisco doesn't cover industrial networking (canbus, fieldbus, modbus).

Canbus over tcpip is okay (like on aircraft for instrumentation/engine control) but tcpip over canbus is horrid(1 tcp packet = approx 35 can packets)

Eildor

Good advice, I'll try see if I can get some work experience.

COYS!

I'm in the same basic boat as the OP, so take this for what it's worth.

The bit about HR sounds right from what I've heard from my friends, several of whom are project managers in big consulting companies. Usually they complain about HR being totally out-of-touch with the real technical requirements of a position, so the HR people tend to shotgun keywords in their position requirements. It's been instructive on their advice to slightly change my online profiles/resumes and churn keywords every month or so just to watch the results as the HR replies start to refill my email.

And really if you sound remotely qualified for a position, what's the harm in trying? Even if you just get one phone interview and nothing else, at least you've had the experience of taking that interview which will help you relax and prepare for every other phone interview you ever take.

The best indicators as to the true chances at landing a position other than having someone inside to put your resume on the hiring person's table seem to be salary, job title, and posted responsibilities, along with the organization's reputation. I've found glassdoor[dot]com to be useful in this regard with several offers which sounded good, but upon further research I turned down due to their anonymous reviews and the opinions of other people I know IRL who know the companies firsthand.

And the experience>certs most of the time sounds true from what I've heard from the same quarter, although a friend who hires for a pretty elite infosec department at a really big organization once jokingly said that if a dude in a leather jacket with an active CCIE walked in with a few days beard growth stinking of whiskey he'd be hired the next day for six figures (USD, but still) if he had a pulse and didn't blow the technical interview.

Eildor

COYS! wrote: »

I'm in the same basic boat as the OP, so take this for what it's worth.

The bit about HR sounds right from what I've heard from my friends, several of whom are project managers in big consulting companies. Usually they complain about HR being totally out-of-touch with the real technical requirements of a position, so the HR people tend to shotgun keywords in their position requirements. It's been instructive on their advice to slightly change my online profiles/resumes and churn keywords every month or so just to watch the results as the HR replies start to refill my email.

And really if you sound remotely qualified for a position, what's the harm in trying? Even if you just get one phone interview and nothing else, at least you've had the experience of taking that interview which will help you relax and prepare for every other phone interview you ever take.

The best indicators as to the true chances at landing a position other than having someone inside to put your resume on the hiring person's table seem to be salary, job title, and posted responsibilities, along with the organization's reputation. I've found glassdoor[dot]com to be useful in this regard with several offers which sounded good, but upon further research I turned down due to their anonymous reviews and the opinions of other people I know IRL who know the companies firsthand.

And the experience>certs most of the time sounds true from what I've heard from the same quarter, although a friend who hires for a pretty elite infosec department at a really big organization once jokingly said that if a dude in a leather jacket with an active CCIE walked in with a few days beard growth stinking of whiskey he'd be hired the next day for six figures (USD, but still) if he had a pulse and didn't blow the technical interview.

Haha yeah CCIE's are quite rare I suppose. I personally don't have any intention of going for the CCIE, even more so since I've been told you can't take the practical in the UK. I think I'll go for CCNA > CCNP ...then MAYBE CCNA Voice and CCNA Security.