No more certs for a while

Essendon

I mean what's the point of studying for a cert if I am going to forget the concepts?

Well it happened on two occasions at work this past week. We have an external company do our phone systems and one of their techs came to our area about some DNS issues their systems were having. For the life of me I couldnt put together a solution for them for failover using DNS. I know it's not a good idea really to use DNS for failover, but I know people use them and we use it to fail our Internet over. I mean I am an MCSA and an EA, but what good are these certs if I dont know DNS inside out?

The other time it happened, I was asked about why some users werent getting a particular home page. Again after digging around for half an hour and getting nowhere with the myriad of policies/delegations/permissions, I resorted to asking another guy about it.

I was beginning to prepare for the XenApp 6 exam, but what's the point if a Systems Engineer doesnt know DNS/DFS/GPO's/Clustering really, really, really well? I am one of those guys who pride themselves in not dumping an exam, doing it the right away, you know what I mean. But still if I forget the basics, the real things that make a good Server Engineer, I might as well give up being one.

Really cross with myself and the community here is probably the only folks (apart from my missus) that truly will understand what I mean and how furious I am with myself.

All I am doing for the next several months is read, read, read and lab the crap out of 1). DNS 2). DFS 3). GP 4). Clustering

Sorry folks, needed to vent.

IRONMONKUS

Good points! I like your post!

It reminds us that going for certifications is all well and good, but to really understand the material is what is truly key and what we all should be striving for.

This same subject hit me hard today and made me think. I was taking the ICND2 exam getting my CCNA when I realized -- I don't know anything about OSPF. Yes, I know theory of what I read in a book or watched in a video, but as I was going through some of the OSPF questions, my mind was blown as my knowledge of the subject matter dwindled greatly.

This has engaged a greater need for understanding of the material as it has you. I need and want to strive for higher levels of certification, but I don't want it hampering my ability to fully understand what it is I'm testing for.

I think a slow road is in order to maximize the learning of the subject matter with the mindset of still working towards being certified when you understand and can implement the material.

docrice

IT work involves tons of minutia and in many cases, we're spread thin enough with differing roles and responsibilities that without frequent reinforcement of all these areas, it's easy to have a brain burp about fundamentals. Happens to all of us. Certifications aren't an indicator of expertise, but they might convey that you potentially have some idea of what's going on.

The real world demands far more than what certification studies prepare us for. The textbooks aren't always reflective of reality. The official curriculum teaches us the straight line. A production network is more like a spaghetti factory.

MrRyte

You can't remember every single detail of every single topic. If it's something that you only come across every once in a blue moon then it should be expected for you not to remember it. The best way to remember something is to practice it repeatedly.

Go easy on yourself bro....

JohnnyBiggles

MrRyte wrote: »

...The best way to remember something is to practice it repeatedly.

Or, resort to asking another guy about it!! [We also learned teamwork in school. Nothing wrong with that, right?]

Excellent1

I have had very similar feelings and thoughts over the last year or so. One of the things that I've realized is that the truth with any thing you learn is that without constant reinforcement and repetition, you WILL lose it. Not all of it, but enough that the fine details that you need to pass an exam will slowly lose their focus in your mind to the point that feel like it's slipped away entirely.

The bottom line is that if you want to know DNS/GPO's/etc/etc at the laser sharp level that you seem to be indicating, you are going to have to find ways to work those into your day to day activities in some way, shape, or form. The truth is that we (generically speaking) often times hold ourselves to some unrealistic standards that are impractical, with regards to knowing all things technical. There is nothing wrong with having obtained base-level knowledge that certifications help you achieve, then having to brush up on those things as needed if they aren't something you use regularly. True, there are those savants out there that seem to be omniscient about all things IT, but those people are obvious exceptions.

It's cliched to use the comparison these days because it's so overused, but the IT field really is like the medical field. You wouldn't ask an orthopedic surgeon for his recommendation regarding some chest pains you've been having. While the orthopedic surgeon undoubtedly encountered and was trained in heart-related issues during his education, but no one would reasonably expect him to make a recommendation in an area that is not his focus. IT is the same way, in many aspects. You can be a jack of all trades with general knowledge of many aspects of the job, or you can be more specialized in 1 or 2 areas and really drill down to the expert level in areas that you will use with some regularity.

The final comment I'll make is that I've found that when I go back and review a lot of the information I've learned studying for certs, it's like riding a bicycle--it does come back to you. It's not as difficult to reacquaint yourself with material that you've learned before, provided you did study it and know it well enough to pass an exam. I'm sure that varies somewhat from person to person, but I think in general you'll find it holds true for the majority. Regardless, don't beat yourself up over it and don't get discouraged.

NOC-Ninja

Like Jeremy from CBT said, certifications will help you understand the technology or a person will have an idea where to find the answers. Not everybody can remember everything he learns, thats why we usually keep our books, videos and notes so we can go back to it when we need it.

N2IT

Essendon wrote: »

I mean what's the point of studying for a cert if I am going to forget the concepts?

Well it happened on two occasions at work this past week. We have an external company do our phone systems and one of their techs came to our area about some DNS issues their systems were having. For the life of me I couldnt put together a solution for them for failover using DNS. I know it's not a good idea really to use DNS for failover, but I know people use them and we use it to fail our Internet over. I mean I am an MCSA and an EA, but what good are these certs if I dont know DNS inside out?

The other time it happened, I was asked about why some users werent getting a particular home page. Again after digging around for half an hour and getting nowhere with the myriad of policies/delegations/permissions, I resorted to asking another guy about it.

I was beginning to prepare for the XenApp 6 exam, but what's the point if a Systems Engineer doesnt know DNS/DFS/GPO's/Clustering really, really, really well? I am one of those guys who pride themselves in not dumping an exam, doing it the right away, you know what I mean. But still if I forget the basics, the real things that make a good Server Engineer, I might as well give up being one.

Really cross with myself and the community here is probably the only folks (apart from my missus) that truly will understand what I mean and how furious I am with myself.

All I am doing for the next several months is read, read, read and lab the crap out of 1). DNS 2). DFS 3). GP 4). Clustering

Sorry folks, needed to vent.

Vent away I do it all the time

I feel the same way at times for different reasons though.

If I am not going to use the certification/knowledge set extensively then there is no point in me learning it, certing it, leveraging it, etc.

I've taken a new approach

I write out a career goal that goes only 2 years out. Then I right down all the skills and attributes I need to obtain to get there. This includes evaluating if an attribute is strong, average, or weak.

My writing is not particularly strong. That would be something I need to focus on. My project management knowledge isn't all that strong, there is another topic to focus on. That's how I go about learning now. If it so happens that there is a certification aligned with what I am learning I will most likely go for it, since I like certifications. But if there isn't no worries I still will learn what I need to know.

Focus on what is important in your job. If you dont know write it down and make sure to strengthen your knowledge in that area.

yuddhidhtir

Its pretty dicouraging and disappointment when you realize that the things you studied so hard and thought you know it very well but after some months, years
reality hits hard on your self belief. I guess we take knowledge for granted. we cant remember each and everything for forever.Not only we have to learn new things but also have to re-read from time to time.

elTorito

The truth of the matter is that even the official MS certifications seem to touch many concepts, such as DNS, only superficially. Refer to Technet, for example, and I'll be able to find ten times as many details about DNS than I could from the 70-647 book.

Don't beat yourself up over it. While it's admirable to want to know everything inside out, a systems engineer (the all-around ones) simply can't be an expert on every single concept. We're spread too thin as it is. Heck, even the guys who specialize on a single discipline don't know everything about their area of expertise.

onesaint

I know completely what you mean and run into this from time to time. I'll have gone over something in Linux, set it up and not had to touch it again for a year or more (like squid). Then am expected to recall the exact procedure for install/configs/design. Sometimes I feel like remembering Linux intricacies is akin to remembering every square inch of the Atlantic Ocean. There is too much to recall it all. So, I set up a wiki and as I go through, take notes and reference them as needed.

Learning fundamentals is the only option for knowing what your doing, but remembering everything about them is not always an option. Look at it like a challenge and figure out a solution that fits your work style. Try to bear in mind that there are thousands of developers out there dreaming up new things for you to remember daily. Attempts tp retain it all are futile. So, do what we do best and find a solid solution.

Turgon

Essendon wrote: »

I mean what's the point of studying for a cert if I am going to forget the concepts?

Well it happened on two occasions at work this past week. We have an external company do our phone systems and one of their techs came to our area about some DNS issues their systems were having. For the life of me I couldnt put together a solution for them for failover using DNS. I know it's not a good idea really to use DNS for failover, but I know people use them and we use it to fail our Internet over. I mean I am an MCSA and an EA, but what good are these certs if I dont know DNS inside out?

The other time it happened, I was asked about why some users werent getting a particular home page. Again after digging around for half an hour and getting nowhere with the myriad of policies/delegations/permissions, I resorted to asking another guy about it.

I was beginning to prepare for the XenApp 6 exam, but what's the point if a Systems Engineer doesnt know DNS/DFS/GPO's/Clustering really, really, really well? I am one of those guys who pride themselves in not dumping an exam, doing it the right away, you know what I mean. But still if I forget the basics, the real things that make a good Server Engineer, I might as well give up being one.

Really cross with myself and the community here is probably the only folks (apart from my missus) that truly will understand what I mean and how furious I am with myself.

All I am doing for the next several months is read, read, read and lab the crap out of 1). DNS 2). DFS 3). GP 4). Clustering

Sorry folks, needed to vent.

Stop kicking yourself in the ass. Your *company* has the solution the client needs and that's how requirements like this are handled. What came in was a piece of design work and good design has it's own process and requirements including time to do properly. Do you think all the designers I work with have all the technicals to hand on the fly? You would need medication long before you were close to having *everything* available at a moments notice. I would go further and say that rapid design can lead to some bad assumptions and later rework. Design work requires analysis of requirements, assessment of options, reflection and elapsed time. This is why you have design process so you can consult with your peers. You have the base knowledge and enough experience to lead design work like this to a successful conclusion. The work should be scoped properly and an estimate given to the client to complete a documented design which is internally validated and approved. Could be one weeks effort, one months, whatever is required.

So yeah, brush up on a few things, but give yourself a break. Now if anyone has any insights on migrating to Nokia Clustering and VSS, or separation of thousands of VRF based traffic flows on firewalls drop me a line.

UnixGuy

One of the best ways to retain information is by helping people in forums/linked groups. Getting yourself involved in more work on the job will also be a great way to remember things and learn new stuff. Always have your VMs ready to test new things.

you are right, no point in just getting new certs. Keep doing things in lab/on the job, and read books and test things on your own.

Nice post

mikedisd2

Don't worry about it; if it's not DNS, GPO's, DRF and clustering that's got you stumped, then it's going to be PKI, AD trusts, NTDSUtil and IPSec. There's always going to be something to trip you up.

bertieb

I agree with what Turgon says fella, stop kicking yourself in the ass.

It happens all the time because these days many technical IT roles cross boundaries where one day you are engrossed in a particular technology, only for you to not touch it again in ages because you've been given other work to do. And I don't care how good anyone is, if something gets landed on you or queried at short notice it takes time to either find the underlying issue, or research it thoroughly to ensure the design is solid and worthy of further discussion with your peers.

I've said it for years, it's easy to teach tech to people (apart from my dad...) but what makes some engineers better than others is that even if they don't know the answer to a problem and have little knowledge in the area, they'll go off, read, research and will eventually offer some valuable and well reasoned input.

It helps me to have a library of pdf files/notes that I take with me and update when working on something - its surprising how a quick glance over some notes helps refresh the memory if I've not touched the technology for a while.

So yeah, brush up on what you feel to need too at the moment but stop beating yourself up.

andy4tech

Essendon,
Guys have said it all,no matter what ,you may have read some topics to pass a test,applying it later in time may not come easy but i know you are an expert on some of the topics you read for a test and have been applying it in your daily job,in such if you encountered any problem you will be able to solve such problem within a twinkle of an eye.Man don't kick yourself in the ass anymore when you are unable to solve anything that you don't use daily on your job,just go back and make some researches,if you are still unable to apply it try to ask,i don't think there is a crime in asking things you don't know,no matter is an highland........................

Mind_Sculptor

It happens When we don't use something for a while we do forget.

However studying for these certs it also shows that you understood the material really well and even though you forgot a thing or two with just some refreshments you will pick up back up really quick compared to someone that do not have the cert.:D

pham0329

Essendon wrote: »

I mean what's the point of studying for a cert if I am going to forget the concepts?

Well it happened on two occasions at work this past week. We have an external company do our phone systems and one of their techs came to our area about some DNS issues their systems were having. For the life of me I couldnt put together a solution for them for failover using DNS. I know it's not a good idea really to use DNS for failover, but I know people use them and we use it to fail our Internet over. I mean I am an MCSA and an EA, but what good are these certs if I dont know DNS inside out?

The other time it happened, I was asked about why some users werent getting a particular home page. Again after digging around for half an hour and getting nowhere with the myriad of policies/delegations/permissions, I resorted to asking another guy about it.

I was beginning to prepare for the XenApp 6 exam, but what's the point if a Systems Engineer doesnt know DNS/DFS/GPO's/Clustering really, really, really well? I am one of those guys who pride themselves in not dumping an exam, doing it the right away, you know what I mean. But still if I forget the basics, the real things that make a good Server Engineer, I might as well give up being one.

Really cross with myself and the community here is probably the only folks (apart from my missus) that truly will understand what I mean and how furious I am with myself.

All I am doing for the next several months is read, read, read and lab the crap out of 1). DNS 2). DFS 3). GP 4). Clustering

Sorry folks, needed to vent.

No one expects you to remember everything. We remember the thing we use most. A few months ago, I could tell you everything there is to know about Exchange as I was studying for the MCITP: EMA, but now, as I moved onto Cisco, there are certain things that I no longer remember on the top of my head. However, while I may not remember them at this moment, it'll come back to me once I read a few article on the subject.

Having said all that, if you really did forget how DNS round robin works, then yes, I believe you should be hitting the books on network infrastructure.

Forsaken_GA

I figured out awhile ago that I can't remember everything. It's futile to try.

That's why, when I'm studying, I have two focuses -

#1 - Understand the core concept. If you understand how it works on a fundamental level, you can usually reason out the problem without having to remember the little details

#2 - Know where to find the information you need. Once you have figured out what the problem is, *then* you need the details. Knowing where to find them in a hurry makes you a whole lot more efficient.

I maintain a private wiki that I use to warehouse all the important data that I've figured out the hard way, but doesn't have everyday application. That way, when I see a problem and recognize that I've seen it before, I go plow through my personal document repository, and that will usually kickstart my memory about how I fixed it last time, and if not, I've already got it documented. Alot of folks use Google to fulfill this need. However, sites do disappear, and Google's cache isn't always reliable, so while I may use Google during initial research, I take the salient data from that research, and prepare it in a way that's useful to me, and then store on something that I know I'll always have available.

Anything that legitimately takes me longer than an hour to figure out gets documented. I qualify that by saying legitimately, because sometimes I make stupid assumptions that lead me down the wrong path and wastes time, or I forget about something simple (in those cases, I may still make a small documentation entry pointing out what I may be doing wrong, and to check my assumptions and premises).

This habit developed after reading Time Management for System Administrators. Mr. Limoncelli makes a very good case for not trusting your brain - it's a fickle and lazy bastard, so document the hell out of what you do.

It's really only the tests that don't let you access reference material that expect you to retain more than you usually will. In the real world, you're not expected to know everything off the top of your head, but since you've had exposure to it before, you should have a better clue than someone who's never touched it before.

Essendon

Wow guys, a BIG WOW actually!! Thank you for the enormous outpouring of support, much appreciated!!
After sulking just about all of yesterday, I am in a much better frame of mind.

Thing is, I have very high expectations of myself. Although not grandiose, but I have some big ambitions. I expect myself and any Server Admin worth their while to know the 4 topics I mentioned inside and out. Imagine if I were to consult for a company and I couldnt figure out what was wrong with their DNS after hours of deliberation?

I *need* to be the guy people refer to. When someone wants to know something about DNS, they should come to or be referred straight to me. Group Policy issues - my Team Leader should be saying "Hey, Essendon's a gun at GP, ask him". Same goes for Clustering and DFS "Essendon's your man".

I agree with all of you saying I should go easy on myself. We have a guy at work who seems to have boundless knowledge of just about everything Windows related. I acknowledge the fact he has 19 years of experience and used to run a consultancy of his own. I want to better than him. Rome wasnt built in day, but I feel that my pursuit of success is sputtering along. I am nudging 30 and nowhere near the level I want to be. Hence the need to pick up my game and drill the core Windows Server concepts into my grey matter.

@Excellent1 - excellent comments, points taken.

@NOC-Ninja, Turgon, Forsaken - good points again. I am going to buy that Time Mgmt book as suggested.

@UnixGuy - Lab, lab and more lab is what I'll be doing.

@mikedisd2 - You arent wrong about something else tripping me up. ISA is another subject I want to know well, I know my way around it but again not to the level I want to be at.

@N2 - Points taken.

@bertieb - Will be setting up some kind of repository. Nice one.

@Everyone else - thank you for taking the time to respond and offer sage advice.

Here's the plan. Lab up the 4 areas I posted about before. Try to get more involved with these topics at work. Set up a wiki with all the bookmarks, posts, articles I come across for easy reference (this might just help other people too). Not stress too much if I cannot come up with something on the fly. Coming down too hard on myself I guess.

Thank you once again.

Forsaken_GA

Essendon wrote: »

I *need* to be the guy people refer to. When someone wants to know something about DNS, they should come to or be referred straight to me. Group Policy issues - my Team Leader should be saying "Hey, Essendon's a gun at GP, ask him". Same goes for Clustering and DFS "Essendon's your man".

It takes discipline and practice. If you want to get that way, what you do for fun needs to look a whole lot like work to others.

What I would do in your situation is buy some nice big beefy boxes, install ESXi on them, pop for an MSDN subscription, and then try and mimic your work environment as closely as possible. This is what I do, whether it's network related, or server related. Building that out in a home lab will teach you alot of valuable information for when you see issues in production.

You also need to keep your ear to the ground. If you hear folks talking about specific technology, especially in your workplace, go research it. If possible, implement it yourself. If you run into problems, ask folks that have experience with it some questions to clarify. That way when the talks come up at work, you can discuss it intelligently. Or you can make the proposal yourself.

If you want to be that guy, you have to be all in. You need to be the leader, not the follower, whether or not you're the leader in name.

instant000

Essendon wrote: »

I mean what's the point of studying for a cert if I am going to forget the concepts?

Really cross with myself and the community here is probably the only folks (apart from my missus) that truly will understand what I mean and how furious I am with myself.

Sorry folks, needed to vent.

As everyone else already said:

1. You're too hard on yourself.

2. No one remembers everything. The amount of trivia you have to juggle in your head to gain certifications is actually unrealistic for most people, as you can't constantly reference most of that information in day-to-day work, to keep it fresh.

3. The point of the certs is to give you a baseline of knowledge sufficient to not necessarily answer every query, but to know enough about the subject to be able to find the answer to the question.

4. For an actual job, it is much better to figure out how things work, and you can look up the trivia as you come across them.

instant000

IRONMONKUS wrote: »

Good points! I like your post!

It reminds us that going for certifications is all well and good, but to really understand the material is what is truly key and what we all should be striving for.

This same subject hit me hard today and made me think. I was taking the ICND2 exam getting my CCNA when I realized -- I don't know anything about OSPF. Yes, I know theory of what I read in a book or watched in a video, but as I was going through some of the OSPF questions, my mind was blown as my knowledge of the subject matter dwindled greatly.

This has engaged a greater need for understanding of the material as it has you. I need and want to strive for higher levels of certification, but I don't want it hampering my ability to fully understand what it is I'm testing for.

I think a slow road is in order to maximize the learning of the subject matter with the mindset of still working towards being certified when you understand and can implement the material.

Hah, OSPF is no joke. What they give you in CCNA is just a small sliver, to get you started.

I have a friend studying for her CCNA right now, and she saw some video, and she comes up the next day trying to explain to me what she learned, telling me that areas 5 and 7 are required when you use multiple-area OSPF. I told her that she was wrong, that she was misconstruing what she saw in the video.

I told her to read some actual material, so I directed her to cisco.com and wikipedia. Also, I told her to do some labs.

I also warned her that she could easily spend a month studying OSPF, and still not know it all.

I appreciated her enthusiasm, and just warned her that someone in the future might not be so nice to correct her so kindly, and to get a little more humility about things, as she initially wanted to argue with me, until she started reading the articles for herself.

The only way to be really sharp at something technical is to do it.

It's just like layups. Easy as cake, but if you don't practice, you get rusty and can miss it.

kobe missed wide open layup - YouTube

Forsaken_GA

instant000 wrote: »

Hah, OSPF is no joke. What they give you in CCNA is just a small sliver, to get you started.

EIGRP was my monkey in my early studies. Back when I was studying for BSCI (the first time), I used a Sybex book, and man, after getting through that book, I thought I knew everything! This Cisco router stuff is easy!

Then I get to the exam. All of a sudden I'm seeing questions on things I've never even heard of before (EIGRP has stub functions? really?). I ended up passing, but just barely. That experience sobered me up really quick, and that's when I learned to seek information from many many sources, because every single one of those subjects that I didn't read about, I found easily on cisco.com when I looked them up after the exam.

bertieb

Essendon wrote: »

Wow guys, a BIG WOW actually!! Thank you for the enormous outpouring of support, much appreciated!!

No problem, after all the words of encouragement and help you have given others you shouldn't be surprised though!

Glad you are more positive today, now go and get DNS down, I'll test you later

powerfool

Hey, being self-critical isn't a bad thing... just take it all into perspective. Relax a bit and do what reason would suggest: go fill in the gaps that you have identified. No big deal.

I too have high expectations of myself. I know how you feel, and that just makes me all the more driven. But realistically, you can learn anything, but not everything. Go back through the topics and get as comfortable as you require.

Essendon

powerfool wrote: »

Hey, being self-critical isn't a bad thing... just take it all into perspective. Relax a bit and do what reason would suggest: go fill in the gaps that you have identified. No big deal.

I too have high expectations of myself. I know how you feel, and that just makes me all the more driven. But realistically, you can learn anything, but not everything. Go back through the topics and get as comfortable as you require.

That's exactly what I'll be doing. I'll be labbing the material till I begin mumbling about Clusters, DNS and Group Policies in my sleep. Wonder what my missus is going to think of it

undomiel

She'll say hey hot stuff, want to bring me to quorum? I've got an A record with your IP on it.

Essendon

undomiel wrote: »

She'll say hey hot stuff, want to bring me to quorum? I've got an A record with your IP on it.

The Funniest thing I've heard all week. Nice one!!