CCIE in decline?

TurgonTurgon Posts: 6,313Banned
The training vendors are laying instructors off. Many have taken permanent jobs. We expect to hit 30000 CCIE's anytime soon. Anyone watching CCIE pass testimonies on the grey vendor sites can see that most of the passers are in the Middle east or Asia, fewer in the US.

Has the CCIE peaked?

My feeling is that the timeserved CCIE's (10+ years network experience) are in a very good position as in any piechart driven company because *someone* has to know how things actually work, and how much time and expenditure is needed to make them work. The newly minted CCIE's less so. They are 10 years too late and cheaper CCIEs are available for hire in China (the numbers of Chinese CCIEs is soon to surpass US CCIEs and they are way cheaper to hire).
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  • Mrock4Mrock4 Posts: 2,360Banned
    Turgon wrote: »
    The training vendors are laying instructors off. Many have taken permanent jobs. We expect to hit 30000 CCIE's anytime soon. Anyone watching CCIE pass testimonies on the grey vendor sites can see that most of the passers are in the Middle east or Asia, fewer in the US.

    Has the CCIE peaked?

    My feeling is that the timeserved CCIE's (10+ years network experience) are in a very good position as in any piechart driven company because *someone* has to know how things actually work, and how much time and expenditure is needed to make them work. The newly minted CCIE's less so. They are 10 years too late and cheaper CCIEs are available for hire in China (the numbers of Chinese CCIEs is soon to surpass US CCIEs and they are way cheaper to hire).

    I do recall reading somewhere that the last time cisco posted the statistics on their site- the CCIE numbers had actually declined in the last couple of years, mostly due to folks letting their certs expire. I can't verify that though.

    I think the CCIE training business is drying up. I think this is evident by the constant e-mails I get each week for deals that INE is giving. I NEVER got these a couple of years ago from them. There was an influx of people trying to get certified, and probably a ton who thought they could buy the vendor packages, and pass the test "easy". Many tried, failed, and probably more never even tried. So, for a while, money was good.

    Another consideration, is the economy in the U.S. I know several CCIE candidates personally, who simply cannot afford to buy vendor products, let alone a lab for home.

    The position I was just hired for, infact, was a CCIE position. The only reason I got it is because of my aspirations..but I suspect had they held out, they would have hired a CCIE and paid good money for a newly minted CCIE.
  • TurgonTurgon Posts: 6,313Banned
    Mrock4 wrote: »
    I think the CCIE training business is drying up.

    The CCIE training business is dying. They are laying off quality people and many others are cashing their chips and going permanent. The majority of CCIE candidates are in developing countries in the middle east or Asia that cannot afford the materials, so the torrents abuse is great. Lost revenue. The CCIE has past it's peak. You want it *with* experience..so get that and get the CCIE to gilt edge things. Western companies that need *more CCIE's* will just employ cheap IE's in developing countries where cheating is rife. Apollogies to ligit CCIEs in those places in advance as staying clean must cost you a fortune given the West-East differential in wages when you consider the price of INE workbooks.

    I know one guy in India who was going to blow his brains out if he couldn't pass CCIE soon because of the money he borrowed from loansharks to finance his studies and CCIE lab exam. The loan sharks would persecute his family if he didnt pass and get the wage to pay it off.

    Just a thought while we all eat a happy meal and watch the football..
  • ColbyGColbyG Posts: 1,264Member
    I think there might be another side as well. I'm not sure that the CCIE is what it used to be. I was hardcore into it for quite awhile, then I realized that I don't need it. So much dedication and effort are required to beat it and I just don't feel like the effort is worth the reward right now. Maybe some others are feeling the same way. Or maybe I'm alone and it's one (or more) of the other reasons.
  • NOC-NinjaNOC-Ninja Posts: 1,403Member
    I'm with ColbyG that most of the OG network guys and young guys figure out that they can make big bux without even having ccie. Just look at mrock. Also, I have a friend that makes more than 130k as a network architect for a biomedical company with ccna and mcse. However, he has 10yrs plus experience in networking. He doesn't want and need ccie to be making lots of money.
  • NOC-NinjaNOC-Ninja Posts: 1,403Member
    Its a good thing for us that are still going for ccie. Ccie from middle east and asia are doing it to get a better quality of life. The drive is higher because of poverty. I guess that's one of the reason why my drive is very high because I went through poverty. Not the poverty that I went to the projects and have ebt but poverty that I was eating once a day because we didn't have food, a live in a small room with 5 people in it. Its a tough world and guys will work hard just to survive. Living in the 3rd world country sucks. My friends finished college with master with no jobs. They will get hired but they will be an intern for a year and unable to find a permanent paying job after that.
  • nelnel Posts: 2,859Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    Its interesting what you guys higher up the chain are talking about here. Eventually, i wanted to head towards the IE track.

    Out of curiosity, what would you say are the things which would keep you ahead of the game? i know experience is king but what else will you be doing to keep ahead of the competition from the far east?
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  • reaper81reaper81 Posts: 631Member
    This is my view on it but it has worked great for me. If you are in to IT you can't be lazy. You need to learn new stuff and read all the time. Sure, if you just want to be a guy that noone notices and stay in the same position all the time then you don't need to improve a lot.

    However if you want to have success in your career you need to show you are worth that promotion or worth the salary you make. I started Networking 4 years ago and in that time I have advanced a lot in my career and increased my salary by 54% in those years. I have picked up a number of certs on the way and often I am considered the goto guy even if there are more experienced/higher cert guys. Why? Because I put the effort in, I always want to improve and learn new stuff and that pays off.

    I have a decent head on my shoulders but ambition and the will to learn is the most important skill in IT. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to be a great guy in IT. So my advice is to always read stuff, get a few certs and of course experience is the most important thing but in the beginning you won't have experience so you will have to weigh that up with education, certs and ambition.
    Daniel Dib
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  • SteveO86SteveO86 Posts: 1,423Member
    If CCIE numbers in the US continue to decline, won't we just see another drive for CCIE certified individuals within the next few years when even people let their CCIE expire?

    The less people with expired CCIE's will just create a better market for those with a valid CCIE right?
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  • jonenojoneno Posts: 257Member ■■■■□□□□□□
    SteveO86 wrote: »
    If CCIE numbers in the US continue to decline, won't we just see another drive for CCIE certified individuals within the next few years when even people let their CCIE expire?

    The less people with expired CCIE's will just create a better market for those with a valid CCIE right?
    SteveO86....you 100% correct.
    The lower the supply of a product/service, the higher the demand for the product/services. Education/knowledge is hardly a bad investment, get it if/when you can.
  • WiseWunWiseWun Posts: 285Member
    I hope it did not reach it's peak. A lot of my friends are heading to the IE track after completing their graduate program. Some doing self study, others boot camp. Rumor has it that there are some training vendors mainly from Asia who have the actual lab exams. Have you guys heard of this before?
    "If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you’ll never come up with anything original.” - Ken Robinson
  • Mrock4Mrock4 Posts: 2,360Banned
    WiseWun wrote: »
    I hope it did not reach it's peak. A lot of my friends are heading to the IE track after completing their graduate program. Some doing self study, others boot camp.

    I'd take a stab and say out of those friends, 10% will even attempt the lab. Many people underestimate what it takes to prepare for the IE.
  • ehndeehnde Posts: 1,103Member
    I don't mean to offend anyone in this thread, but as you push your way up the technical ladder (it doesn't have to be Cisco, it could be Microsoft, Juniper, or a mix of higher level certs) you will be handed excuses by friends, family, coworkers, news articles or other sources to not even try. So are you going to give up? No, you're NOT!!! icon_cheers.gif

    ...(well, a couple of you won't give up icon_lol.gif )
    Climb a mountain, tell no one.
  • SteveO86SteveO86 Posts: 1,423Member
    Hopefully by the time I get around to CCIE I'll be getting in at the right time icon_smile.gif
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    Latest blog post: Let's review EIGRP Named Mode
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  • NOC-NinjaNOC-Ninja Posts: 1,403Member
    ehnde wrote: »
    I don't mean to offend anyone in this thread, but as you push your way up the technical ladder (it doesn't have to be Cisco, it could be Microsoft, Juniper, or a mix of higher level certs) you will be handed excuses by friends, family, coworkers, news articles or other sources to not even try. So are you going to give up? No, you're NOT!!! icon_cheers.gif

    ...(well, a couple of you won't give up icon_lol.gif )
    I agree with you. I have a lot of haters trying to discourage me. lol Too bad I spent so much money and time to back out. icon_lol.gif
  • tokhsstokhss Posts: 473Member
    From what I have seen, the market is blowing up in the last few weeks. I am in shock with all the offers i am getting right now (even though i am not qualified for most of them haha).. in the last 3 weeks, i literally got about 30+ voice offers that need min ccvp with 3-8 yrs experience range and desired CCIE-V ... all salary ranges are from 100-140k ..

    Do i plan on taking my CCIE-V.. hell yes, why? simple.. you're either CCIE inside or not.. it seriously a lifestyle change to become ccie.. damn even CCVP i had to give up a lot of social life/family time .. hours hours hours behind my lab during my off days.. right now my goal is to land a sweet voice job and for the last few weeks its been a difficult road as nobody really wants to hire a JR voice engineer lol.. hence the 3-8 yrs experience.. but that wont stop me from trying.. the only voice jobs i do see are SR level and thats what i will continue to apply for.. Once i land the job, i will begin my ccie track with the company endorsing me.

    easy? NO.. possible. yes.. Ambition/motivation/energy/will power/ and knowing success is a matter of time and not a question of reality is all i need..

    as other have mentioned, a lot of people say they will and others may hate.. but we all know ourselves and know exactly what we are capable of .. your either CCIE or NOT.

    Sure, you can make great money not being a CCIE.. to that, i have no objections too.. hell, im all for it. But, being a CCIE to me means 1 major goal that I can add to my short list LOL and thats why its important for me to accomplish the CCIE_V path.

    Its pretty funny tho.. i work in room full of people ~ 100 or so.. 70% dont care anymore about certs, 25% talk about it and say how they will get it.. and 5% actually do knock out the certs.

    Good quality techs who have a personality, communicate great and have a true passion about their job will always figure out a way to succeed .
  • swildswild Posts: 828Member
    It's very interesting to hear those percentages. Just out of curiosity, where are you located? I'm in Arkansas and I'm always the only one actually getting certs. Usually after I get a new cert, one or two others are inspired to get one. But it's usually A+ or MCITP.

    Very few people here have ever been certified. Of those that have, the majority are expired.
  • ColbyGColbyG Posts: 1,264Member
    A lot of people talk about becoming CCIEs, but very, very few actually do it.

    Once you get the the senior engineer/architect level, it's really not as important as people make it out to be. If you want short contracting gigs for big money, it's useful. If you work for a partner who needs more CCIEs for status, it's useful. For most other positions, it's pretty on a resume, but not crucial to getting a good job and making good money.
  • tokhsstokhss Posts: 473Member
    I am in Los Angeles..

    When i used to work @ Verizon it was the same deal.. my current job is no different.

    I think the problem is working in Large Corps... Need to get my ass in a medium sized business.
  • Mrock4Mrock4 Posts: 2,360Banned
    I strongly believe out of all the people who say they'll get their CCIE, maybe 30% will follow through with preparing. Less will attempt the lab.

    Another "+" to getting a CCIE that I haven't seen mentioned: Job security.

    After getting a raise or two, I will probably be in CCIE salary territory. BUT! What if I lose my job for some reason- get laid off, quit, etc? I probably won't make that salary anymore. The CCIE is a way to be reasonably certain you'll get a salary within a certain range.

    So, even though I can get in the same ballpark salary-wise, I want the CCIE so that I stay in that ballpark, even when switching employers.
  • ColbyGColbyG Posts: 1,264Member
    Mrock4 wrote: »
    I strongly believe out of all the people who say they'll get their CCIE, maybe 30% will follow through with preparing. Less will attempt the lab.

    Another "+" to getting a CCIE that I haven't seen mentioned: Job security.

    After getting a raise or two, I will probably be in CCIE salary territory. BUT! What if I lose my job for some reason- get laid off, quit, etc? I probably won't make that salary anymore. The CCIE is a way to be reasonably certain you'll get a salary within a certain range.

    So, even though I can get in the same ballpark salary-wise, I want the CCIE so that I stay in that ballpark, even when switching employers.

    I don't think the CCIE gets you a good salary without the required experience (unless the employer is silly). If you have the knowledge/experience required for a "CCIE-level" position, you should have no trouble finding high-paying jobs.
  • rakemrakem Posts: 800Member
    More people are looking at other Vendors - Juniper are grabbing market share of Cisco every day. Perhaps people are chasing other vendor certs?

    I know I have been for the past 9 months...
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  • shodownshodown Posts: 2,271Member
    WiseWun wrote: »
    I hope it did not reach it's peak. A lot of my friends are heading to the IE track after completing their graduate program. Some doing self study, others boot camp. Rumor has it that there are some training vendors mainly from Asia who have the actual lab exams. Have you guys heard of this before?


    This is very true. I have opened several TAC cases where I get a CCIE and they don't know there head from there ass and they are suposed to be specialist in this area, or consultants that are very cheap and we find out they don't know what they claim to know. The reality as I see is is that more of the world is going to get connected and those IE's in other countries will soon be having to get there country online. I know a IE in africa who wanted to come to the US, but he was making more money traveling africa building networks so he stayed. There will be plenty of jobs for US/UK people who choose to really be professionals and experts.
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  • Daniel333Daniel333 Posts: 2,073Member ■■■■■■□□□□
    There are always cheaters out there. Don't stress. When you do things for yourself, you find it's always more profitable than when you do it for profit.
    -Daniel
  • TurgonTurgon Posts: 6,313Banned
    shodown wrote: »
    This is very true. I have opened several TAC cases where I get a CCIE and they don't know there head from there ass and they are suposed to be specialist in this area, or consultants that are very cheap and we find out they don't know what they claim to know. The reality as I see is is that more of the world is going to get connected and those IE's in other countries will soon be having to get there country online. I know a IE in africa who wanted to come to the US, but he was making more money traveling africa building networks so he stayed. There will be plenty of jobs for US/UK people who choose to really be professionals and experts.

    Lab cheating has always happened. I think it hit it's peak with v3 so like a lot of other people I find myself studying for a new version these days. I recall one CCIE telling me 5 years ago when we worked in the same office that he hotelled before his lab attempt and met another candidate that was very confident about his prospects in the lab next day because he had seen the actual test in advance. Technical interview weeds out the players but it all depends what you want from a CCIE. If you just want a tick in the box for partner status that is one thing. On the other hand if you need a CCIE to design complex networks or support complex mission critical infrastructure they really do need to know what you they are talking about and what they are doing. Which takes years..you can learn (for example) MST in books, but migrating a complex RPVST+ environment to MST is a whole different learning curve requiring people with excellent qualities.
  • NightShade03NightShade03 Posts: 1,383Member ■■■■■■■□□□
    rakem wrote: »
    More people are looking at other Vendors - Juniper are grabbing market share of Cisco every day. Perhaps people are chasing other vendor certs?

    I know I have been for the past 9 months...

    I agree with this a lot. I was heading down the CCSP/CCNP:Sec road a few months ago and then changed jobs based on experience not certs. I found that with Cisco on the decline against Juniper and my new job not having anything to do with Cisco equipment...it wasn't worth it to me to stay on that track.

    On the flip side though my new job has provided me with access to Juniper resources and materials so I find myself working hard on their certification track instead. I think going after the CCIE/JNCIE cert is worth it for personal gain nothing more (my opinion anyway). I know if I pass the JNCIE it won't do anything for my salary, but I will have a great understanding of networkings & security as relates to Juniper products, a good understanding of network in general, and skills to always fall back on should my job situation ever change. I think that is the most valuable part....plus the cool plaque that you get icon_thumright.gif
  • JohnnyBigglesJohnnyBiggles Posts: 273Member
    Just out of curiosity, is there some way to find out exactly (or ballpark) how many are in the U.S. (for each track) or other parts of the world?
  • froggy3132000froggy3132000 Posts: 28Member ■□□□□□□□□□
    This is true. Partners, 3-9 month contract gig will get you paid. Once you make it and work with a group of IE's, it is really not that important anymore.

    It is not easy to past alot of hardwork and dedication which alot of people just cant do these days. Too many factors in their personal life will hold them back. It is not for everyone.

    ColbyG wrote: »
    A lot of people talk about becoming CCIEs, but very, very few actually do it.

    Once you get the the senior engineer/architect level, it's really not as important as people make it out to be. If you want short contracting gigs for big money, it's useful. If you work for a partner who needs more CCIEs for status, it's useful. For most other positions, it's pretty on a resume, but not crucial to getting a good job and making good money.
  • shodownshodown Posts: 2,271Member
    Turgon wrote: »
    Lab cheating has always happened. I think it hit it's peak with v3 so like a lot of other people I find myself studying for a new version these days. I recall one CCIE telling me 5 years ago when we worked in the same office that he hotelled before his lab attempt and met another candidate that was very confident about his prospects in the lab next day because he had seen the actual test in advance. Technical interview weeds out the players but it all depends what you want from a CCIE. If you just want a tick in the box for partner status that is one thing. On the other hand if you need a CCIE to design complex networks or support complex mission critical infrastructure they really do need to know what you they are talking about and what they are doing. Which takes years..you can learn (for example) MST in books, but migrating a complex RPVST+ environment to MST is a whole different learning curve requiring people with excellent qualities.



    I couldn't agree with you more on this point. Another job I had back in the day we had a guy on staff who worked and the only thing required for the position was a S+, and he used his cisco certs with a partner and was on there payroll, even though he only showed his face in there once a month.
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  • jovan88jovan88 Posts: 393Member
    To me, certs are like stocks. I believe when you get certifications you're investing in the vendor. I reckon the decline in CCIE programs is due to the decline of Cisco in general.
  • JDMurrayJDMurray Certification Invigilator Surf City, USAPosts: 11,339Admin Admin
    There are 30000+ CCIE-certified individuals?

    The Sky’s The Limit for CCIEs | The Networking Nerd

    How many of them are active, I wonder?
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