Certifications aren't needed for everything

vCole

I've been a member of TE for a few years now. I've also grown significantly in my career since then.

When I first started and obtained my first certification, (MCP) I wanted to get certs in anything and everything I even remotely touched. I was doing this up until a few months ago. (After ditching my CCNA effort.)

However, from what I've begun to notice in my career is getting certified in everything isn't always a good thing. Especially if they a.) Employer required b.) Help your career c.) Don't fall inline with your current job function (unless you're trying to move away from it.)

Now, don't get me wrong I am an advocate of certifications. I just think there's an influx of the shotgun mentality when it comes to certs. The key is to slow down, learn a technology well, and branch out from there.

Just my take on certifications and career growth. Argue with me if you'd like, however, after working for a large well known IT company this is what I've seen and heard from others.

rsutton

I've found that at this point in my career, experience far outweighs certifications, although I could see something like a CCIE still having a large impact.

vCole

rsutton wrote: »

I've found that at this point in my career, experience far outweighs certifications, although I could see something like a CCIE still having a large impact.

Agreed. I'm talking about say, Office certs when you're doing networking. It just doesn't make sense. An employer is going to look at that and say "...huh?"

My point is, get certs that make sense together. MCSE/MCITP:EA + CCNA is pretty powerful. I see a lot of people saying "Just stick with Microsoft" or "Just stick with Cisco." The reality is that makes sense for some people. For me, I work with Cisco networking, Windows, Unix, Linux, storage, server hardware, you name it. What I'm saying is, don't get a bunch of "entry" level certs. It's best to get 1 or 2 Enterprise level certs (MCITP:EA, CCNA/CCNP, RHCSE, VCP, etc.) Then pair enterprise level cert + enterprise level cert that makes sense. CCNA + VCP is a huge one, MCITP:EA + CCNA, CCNA + RHCSE. Want to get out of the $30k - $50k range? This is how.

JDMurray

Getting certifications has helped me learn new technologies that have suddenly become relevant to my work. I've found quite a bit of usefulness in studying for certs, but not taking the exam, just to get the knowledge. When faced with something new, I usually ask myself, "Is there a cert or class for that?" If "yes," then there is syllabus of objectives somewhere for me to study.

Also consider that getting certs can help steer your career along a new, more interesting, or economically-advantageous path. This has certainly been true for me.

Turgon

vCole wrote: »

I've been a member of TE for a few years now. I've also grown significantly in my career since then.

When I first started and obtained my first certification, (MCP) I wanted to get certs in anything and everything I even remotely touched. I was doing this up until a few months ago. (After ditching my CCNA effort.)

However, from what I've begun to notice in my career is getting certified in everything isn't always a good thing. Especially if they a.) Employer required b.) Help your career c.) Don't fall inline with your current job function (unless you're trying to move away from it.)

Now, don't get me wrong I am an advocate of certifications. I just think there's an influx of the shotgun mentality when it comes to certs. The key is to slow down, learn a technology well, and branch out from there.

Just my take on certifications and career growth. Argue with me if you'd like, however, after working for a large well known IT company this is what I've seen and heard from others.

There has been a shotgun mentality on certs since about 1997 to be honest. It's myopic. Get qualifications in things that give you a lever to the *type* of work that will progress you in your career. Then concentrate on your *work*. That is what gets you on in this profession. Not what certifications say you are, but what your work says you can do well. I spend my time on *work* that adds value to my career and throw my time, energy and focus into that. There's always lots of that thankfully. When I have a breather, I work on certs a bit.

Early doors in your career you are spending lots of time on certs because you have less career enabling tasks at hand at work. Later on in your career the converse should be true.

If it is not, change the equation fast because A+,iNet+,N+,S+,MCSE,MCSE+I,MCNE,CCNP,SCSE,CCSE,MCDBA in lieu of experience just doesn't cut it anymore and hasn't since 2002. Most of the people who had that mentality are out of the industry now. A few wised up and have moved on to well paid commercial roles within IT.

Bl8ckr0uter

I agree with you cole. I think the "shotgun" mentality is more than just a cert thing. A lot of our entire industry rewards those who are the most spastic, that is the people who live on the bleeding edge. It isn't just the jobs that say this either. All of the get MCSE/MCITP in 5 days and earn 90k "schools" as well as some Associates degree granting schools preach from the same bible. This isn't a bad thing on it's own, but it does make it very easy for someone to constantly on a chase for the next big thing. I guess somewhere along the way the IT world decided that certs=knowledge and having a baseline level of knowledge required a cert. However, I think that in order for you to truly get to that "next level" of pay/experience/skill you have to learn how to tell yourself no, not now or no I won't be getting that cert. I've been out for a few weeks telling myself that.

For me, it requires that I give up (my desire) to get say MS certs and focus on what I am (and want to) work with (networking (network security) and linux). That means that when I am doing my time, I make sure to give way time to reading say, TCP Illustrated, Cisco ASA handbook, Routing TCP/IP Vol I and Linux Handbook (and the labs that would be associated with it) than to the Server 2008 guide. Which isn't to say that I won't read the MS guide, just not right now since I have things to do before that.

I would say that for people who work in support roles for SMBs, this may not be possible as you may be forced to wear multiple hats. So that is why you see so much alphabet soup after some peoples name.

Akaricloud

From what I've seen, the shotgun approach will only really get you entry level jobs. To move up to higher paying positions you need to specialize and become an expert in one field of study through both experience and certifications.

With that said, the shotgun approach often allows people to get exposure to different fields and choose which fits them best.

Zartanasaurus

JDMurray wrote: »

Getting certifications has helped me learn new technologies that have suddenly become relevant to my work. I've found quite a bit of usefulness in studying for certs, but not taking the exam, just to get the knowledge. When faced with something new, I usually ask myself, "Is there a cert or class for that?" If "yes," then there is syllabus of objectives somewhere for me to study.

This describes my mentality as well. Anytime I want to learn a new technology, I look for a cert on that technology just to learn the topics.

SteveO86

I've worked with enough and delt with enough people to agree with you.

I do like to set myself goals as long as it's relevant to work experience. My goals might be learn a protocol, read a book, or get a certification.

I actually had a conversation like this with one of my co-workers, he was questioning why some material was not covered in the CCNA exam, I told him there is a good deal of information that is not covered in any Cisco certification, the certification is just a staple really and gives you the basic knowledge to build off, it doesn't cover everything or every situation you will run into the real world.

N2IT

Turgon wrote: »

There has been a shotgun mentality on certs since about 1997 to be honest. It's myopic. Get qualifications in things that give you a lever to the *type* of work that will progress you in your career. Then concentrate on your *work*. That is what gets you on in this profession. Not what certifications say you are, but what your work says you can do well. I spend my time on *work* that adds value to my career and throw my time, energy and focus into that. There's always lots of that thankfully. When I have a breather, I work on certs a bit.

Early doors in your career you are spending lots of time on certs because you have less career enabling tasks at hand at work. Later on in your career the converse should be true.

If it is not, change the equation fast because A+,iNet+,N+,S+,MCSE,MCSE+I,MCNE,CCNP,SCSE,CCSE,MCDBA in lieu of experience just doesn't cut it anymore and hasn't since 2002. Most of the people who had that mentality are out of the industry now. A few wised up and have moved on to well paid commercial roles within IT.

I'll make a wild assumption and say 85%+ of the people on this forum don't need to obtain certifications anymore to move forward in their career.

Like you said when you start off it's great to get A+ or whatever, but once you lock into a job 3-5+ years it's go time. I am not saying you shouldn't get a certification, sometimes they are required EG Government Security+.

But for the most of us working class hard work, solid deliverables, and great communication skills will get us where we want to be.

I long for the day I get locked into a career field (EG Project Management) where I can just deliver work hard and make money. I won't have to worry about certifications or degrees. That's my dream.

Mrock4

OK..you think certs aren't NEEDED..but why put yourself at a disadvantage vs. someone with the same experience plus certs? If I was interviewing two candidates, one with 5 yrs exp and no certs, vs another with 5 yrs and an MCSE..all else equal, I'd take the MCSE anyday. To me, it shows you take the initiative to learn new technologies.

You might take the initiative to learn new technologies and never get certified, but if you have the cert, it's hard proof you took the initiative.

Call me weird, but you can always get the cert and take it off the resume..but you can't put it on there if you don't have it..

KingSpade

Mrock4 wrote: »

OK..you think certs aren't NEEDED..but why put yourself at a disadvantage vs. someone with the same experience plus certs? If I was interviewing two candidates, one with 5 yrs exp and no certs, vs another with 5 yrs and an MCSE..all else equal, I'd take the MCSE anyday. To me, it shows you take the initiative to learn new technologies.

You might take the initiative to learn new technologies and never get certified, but if you have the cert, it's hard proof you took the initiative.

Call me weird, but you can always get the cert and take it off the resume..but you can't put it on there if you don't have it..

There are people out there who can land any job without any qualifications (ie. certs).

Mrock4

KingSpade wrote: »

There are people out there who can land any job without any qualifications (ie. certs).

Yeah, they're called janitors! But really..experience is a qualification isn't it?

The point is, just because you CAN get a job without a cert/degree..why? Why not cover all your bases?

genXrcist

Certifications are the frame to the IT picture and experience are the pieces within the picture. Experience alone allows you to see parts of the picture but it can be hard to make out what the picture is without the frame. Combine them both and you have a well-rounded individual that I would prefer.

I've seen a lot of experienced folk that are very good at what they do but ask them to think outside of their experience and they fall down. Certification knowledge gives one a foundation from which you can springboard into full understanding and that more easily transitions into application imo.

Krunchi

"Yeah, they're called janitors!"

Ch@rl!3m0ng

I think that Certs are useful for getting you an interview should you be looking for work. As Mrock4 Say he would prefer someone with the Quals as well as the experience. But its the experience that gets you the job in the end. I have worked with people who have some enterprise quals and cant think outside their book learned experience. Same goes for people without the Quals. The entry certs for me are good to get your foot in the door and help you decide if/where to specialize? I myself am wanting to specilize in Security with a view to getting into pen testing. But for this I NEED a very good base knowledge. To get this I am doing certs and labs. I find this gives me a better understanding of how things work.

This could be discribed as a shotgun method for certs as you will all know security is very large area of knowledge.

So to sum up my rant I think that certs are a good way to gain knowledge especially if you self learn as this force you to build break and fix stuff.

martell1000

What a lot of people - especially in the IT sector often forget when it comes to getting a job is the so called "soft skills". They might seem less important then certs or experiance and in fact they are in my opinion but it can make a HUGE difference.

For example - i was on a projekt a couple of years ago - we were not the most skilled people in the team but we all came along
really good with each other and everyone was willing to sacrifice energy and extra time to get **** done.
Then they hired this kinda strange guy - a real skilled programmer - but he dressed like a russian pimp and had absolutely no soft skills. He was rude, selfish and a real jerk. Even he might have been the most skilled person on the team, he had to leave us very soon after he got hired because the rest of the crew didnt want to work with him.

So what i am saying is that certifications might get you an interview, and experience might impress the employer to think you are the right man for the job, but in fact you just have to proove it if you really are. A CCIE with ten years of experience wont help you much if you are a total jerk...

N2IT

martell1000 wrote: »

What a lot of people - especially in the IT sector often forget when it comes to getting a job is the so called "soft skills". They might seem less important then certs or experiance and in fact they are in my opinion but it can make a HUGE difference.

For example - i was on a projekt a couple of years ago - we were not the most skilled people in the team but we all came along
really good with each other and everyone was willing to sacrifice energy and extra time to get **** done.
Then they hired this kinda strange guy - a real skilled programmer - but he dressed like a russian pimp and had absolutely no soft skills. He was rude, selfish and a real jerk. Even he might have been the most skilled person on the team, he had to leave us very soon after he got hired because the rest of the crew didnt want to work with him.

So what i am saying is that certifications might get you an interview, and experience might impress the employer to think you are the right man for the job, but in fact you just have to proove it if you really are. A CCIE with ten years of experience wont help you much if you are a total jerk...

You make a very good point. Soft skills are huge there is no question about that. Rude people don't make it to far and really why be rude it doesn't produce positive results.

martell1000

I dont know if really did mean to be rude intentionally. I guess it was just the "does not play well with others" type of guy, who doesnt know when he is acting totally inapropiate.

For example - we had this intern - a girl from university who studied some economic stuff which was just partly IT related. And he ranted at her how people should learn php at the university before taking internships in IT when she asked him to help her on a project. And he kept talking stupid stuff when other people were on the phone...

Mike-Mike

vCole wrote: »

It's best to get 1 or 2 Enterprise level certs (MCITP:EA, CCNA/CCNP, RHCSE, VCP, etc.) Then pair enterprise level cert + enterprise level cert that makes sense. CCNA + VCP is a huge one, MCITP:EA + CCNA, CCNA + RHCSE. Want to get out of the $30k - $50k range? This is how.

seems to be a common denominator here.... another unintentional advertisement for CCNA. pretty sure I'm going to head on to the CCNA after the CCENT.

N2IT

Mike-Mike wrote: »

seems to be a common denominator here.... another unintentional advertisement for CCNA. pretty sure I'm going to head on to the CCNA after the CCENT.

Mike you know I haven't ran the numbers, but I think you are onto something here!

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

Mike you know I haven't ran the numbers, but I think you are onto something here!

People should have been doing CCNA 8 years ago. If the penny didn't drop then, let it drop now. Boxes are basically services and if people have kept up with trends services are now a consumable item. But the network makes this happen and provides transport..A presentation will have it as a cloud, but if that cloud doesn't work then the end user experience promised just doesn't happen. Business still realises this so careers are still in the offing there.

Turgon

martell1000 wrote: »

I dont know if really did mean to be rude intentionally. I guess it was just the "does not play well with others" type of guy, who doesnt know when he is acting totally inapropiate.

For example - we had this intern - a girl from university who studied some economic stuff which was just partly IT related. And he ranted at her how people should learn php at the university before taking internships in IT when she asked him to help her on a project. And he kept talking stupid stuff when other people were on the phone...

Im afraid the guys rant was delusional. I have been to University and undertaken degrees. We had some intelligent people teaching us, but generally they are behind the times. Students learn whatever the University lecturers say we should learn. I think the guy you speak of was a product of the boom which thankfully is behind us now and from what you say he got let go. Good. Times move on and he will have to learn how to handle himself better and lose some of the attitude. There are lots of skilled people out there.

NetworkingStudent

vCole wrote: »

I've been a member of TE for a few years now. I've also grown significantly in my career since then.

When I first started and obtained my first certification, (MCP) I wanted to get certs in anything and everything I even remotely touched. I was doing this up until a few months ago. (After ditching my CCNA effort.)

However, from what I've begun to notice in my career is getting certified in everything isn't always a good thing. Especially if they a.) Employer required b.) Help your career c.) Don't fall inline with your current job function (unless you're trying to move away from it.)

Now, don't get me wrong I am an advocate of certifications. I just think there's an influx of the shotgun mentality when it comes to certs. The key is to slow down, learn a technology well, and branch out from there.

Just my take on certifications and career growth. Argue with me if you'd like, however, after working for a large well known IT company this is what I've seen and heard from others.

I think the ROI diminishes as you progress in your IT career. More advance certs take more time and money.

Certs have their time and place. Certs can get you only so far, and let’s face it HR doesn’t know A+ from CISSP, or MCSE from MCTIP. However, they understand degrees, especially since a majority of them have 4 year degrees themselves. You just can’t dismiss the power of a college education. The best combo is a mix of a degree, some certs and a whole bunch of experience. Even entry level jobs require some experience, usually 2 years. Most employers that I have met with think that certs are nice to have , but not a requirement. I have asked duing interveiws if having a certain cert would help, they said no, but would be nice if I had it.

I saw a girl in my Linked in Comptia Group post a message mentioning how she had all these certs, but only could get contractor jobs. Well turns out one look at her profile and you can see she doesn’t have a college degree.

vCole

Mrock4 wrote: »

OK..you think certs aren't NEEDED..but why put yourself at a disadvantage vs. someone with the same experience plus certs? If I was interviewing two candidates, one with 5 yrs exp and no certs, vs another with 5 yrs and an MCSE..all else equal, I'd take the MCSE anyday. To me, it shows you take the initiative to learn new technologies.

You might take the initiative to learn new technologies and never get certified, but if you have the cert, it's hard proof you took the initiative.

Call me weird, but you can always get the cert and take it off the resume..but you can't put it on there if you don't have it..

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, there's no point to get certified in something that has no relevance to what you're doing, or what you want to do. Say you're implementing Blackberries and with BES. What's the point of getting the certification for something you don't NEED it for, when you could spend your time investing it into an Enterprise cert. (Much like you with your career path of CCNA - > CCNP -> CCIE) See what I mean? I see too many people lose focus and just want to collect certs, rather than gain the knowledge.

N2IT

vCole wrote: »

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, there's no point to get certified in something that has no relevance to what you're doing, or what you want to do. Say you're implementing Blackberries and with BES. What's the point of getting the certification for something you don't NEED it for, when you could spend your time investing it into an Enterprise cert. (Much like you with your career path of CCNA - > CCNP -> CCIE) See what I mean? I see too many people lose focus and just want to collect certs, rather than gain the knowledge.

I agree with this completely

I'm am hungry to learn, but right now I have some uncertainties which may or may not come to fruition.

Things that I could learn right now that would help me directly with my job.
1. Excel
2. Project
3. Process Improvement/CSI
4. Operational Management
5. Positive thinking and confidence

Secondary knowledge that I could learn
1. Project Management (CAPM, PMP, Six Sigma Lean, SCRUM)
2. Finance

Knowledge I am passionate about, but not relavent to my career field
1. Windows 7
2. Linux


I know I might be going off tangent a bit, but I feel mental health and confidence are number 1. These supercede certifications and mean everything regardless of what field you are in.

Direct skills that you utilize in the work place is next. Example for me Excel, Visio, Measuring Processes. Those 3 in my world give me the most value add.

Blackout

But how many People in here get certs that they don't need? Allot of people say that network+ is unnecessary, but to me it has been a great foundation. I personally don't want to spend all my free time studying for certs I have a family. Im going to hit my personal goals then im going to be certifying in EXPERIENCE for awhile.

I do agree that people need to stop cert hoarding. ME personally if I took a job and a cert would help me do my job better than Im going to get the cert, if I don't do that job directly im not going to get the cert, my wallet and my family are more important.

N2IT

Blackout wrote: »

But how many People in here get certs that they don't need? Allot of people say that network+ is unnecessary, but to me it has been a great foundation. I personally don't want to spend all my free time studying for certs I have a family. Im going to hit my personal goals then im going to be certifying in EXPERIENCE for awhile.

I do agree that people need to stop cert hoarding. ME personally if I took a job and a cert would help me do my job better than Im going to get the cert, if I don't do that job directly im not going to get the cert, my wallet and my family are more important.

I agree about network +, it really gave me a lot of knowledge. I went from being someone fearful of networking to someone who can make solid decisions. My experience which equals the how, was from my network analyst position, but the why filled in nicely from network +.

+1 on the family and wallet comment.

Mrock4

vCole wrote: »

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, there's no point to get certified in something that has no relevance to what you're doing, or what you want to do. Say you're implementing Blackberries and with BES. What's the point of getting the certification for something you don't NEED it for, when you could spend your time investing it into an Enterprise cert. (Much like you with your career path of CCNA - > CCNP -> CCIE) See what I mean? I see too many people lose focus and just want to collect certs, rather than gain the knowledge.

I see what you're saying. I think they're still useful- even if it's not immediately apparent. For example, I have to take an ITIL cert later this month. Kind of annoying, to be honest, but who knows, maybe my next job will look at that in a favorable light. I'm not advocating the "shotgun" approach, but if I had unlimited time, I'd take some security certs on top of my cisco certs..just for the knowledge.

Turgon

For me, it's all about horsepower. If you want to earn on the back of using a particular technology well then you need competance with it. Certifications teach you something about the features and capabilities of a technology and are a lever into using it. From there it's really down to the individual to seek opportunities where they can put the time in working with the stuff in the field. It's there that you learn *how* something us used and how to work with it in productive ways. So certifications, even certifications in something you dont work with *yet* but either might have to as a job requirement or would like to in the future, well they can be helpful for that.

martell1000

I guess having a certification on something wont do any harm. The worst thing that could happen is that an employer says "oh nice you have cert XY - and then i found 10 $"

If you are aimimg for a job in networking which requieres some NP certification in the long term and you got one no employer will **** you if you tell him that you also have an A+ or a win7 cert. In my opinion these entry level certs show that someone was at least THAT interersted in how his windows works that he spent some 200 $ and some hours for a book and an exam.

In the end i got most of my jobs because i could give the impression that i know my stuff and can solve problems. Sometimes even a very old and unrelevant thing can give you a + in an interview. For example i used to code some "apps" for the old PC BOARD mailbox software, and one of the systems engineers who was interviewing me for a job knew what that kind of software was and loved these lil gimmiks back in the days. Its general useless stuff having scriptet some silly login ansi based login apps back in the 90s but stuff like that shows people that you love tech related stuff and some employers like to have that in their IT depts...