Starting To Question Certification Before Practical Experience

djfunz

So here I am. Finally arrived in the big Bay Area. Tech hub of America. Where opportunities are prevalent and in abundance compared to the rest of the country. Or at least that's what one hears. In the midst of searching for living accommodations and sending resumes to recruiters and submitting job applications, I've started to realize something startling. It doesn't seem to matter what ones certification trophy case contains. The recruiters seem to only pay attention to the previous job listings on ones resume.

For instance, I list Desktop Support on my resume as my previous position. This was for the most part true as I've never really had any practical Networking experience in a corporate environment. Just two years in Germany supporting users. I've studied my rear end off however for the last eight months to attain my CCNA certification because that's what I want to do. What's been coming my way however over the last few days from recruiters? Nothing but Help Desk and Desktop Support roles. Not even a sniff of something Network related. Never mind that my resume lists CCNA on it. It might as well just list the A+ because not one role has come my way that would even remotely utilize my CCNA knowledge.

Is all that study really destined to fade away as I tell people to restart their machine and reset passwords? I mention to recruiters that my goal is something even Junior Network Admin or NOC related and I almost seem to get a blank stare of incomprehension in return. I know I can't lie and list Junior Network Admin on my resume, but I get the feeling that's what would turn the tables a little bit.

Does it really make sense to get all these certs with no relatable previous job title to back them up? I'm perhaps overstressed and impatient at the moment but I appreciate any sound advice this forum can give to ease my mind.

docrice

You probably need to look for other recruiters. Did you already set up a Dice profile / other job-networking sites? I will say that certs without experience can get put someone on the low-priority consideration list, but you might be able to gain some practical experience by posting Craigslist ads for small-business consulting work. It's something you can put down on paper, and even if it's not a "corporate" job, it's additional points that you can add to your resume.

Desktop support roles can very well involve networking at least at a very basic level from a troubleshooting perspective. Knowing how routing and switching works can be very beneficial, even if you wouldn't manage those kinds of devices every day. An existing network engineer can recognize these traits as they aren't very common at the desktop support level and once you've proven yourself to local employers, they may give you a chance at the good stuff.

Plantwiz

For starters (and this is what I'd do) - I would never lie or stretch the truth on a resume. You are who you are and you will make that work to your advancement. It may take time, but it will happen.

Now, in the mean time...

Are certs worth it? Maybe, maybe not. I know plenty of people who have no certs at all or only a few certs and can troubleshoot a plethora of networking issues. They read. They test. They try (and fail) and try again. They network....the people sort-of original social networking

Get out and meet people. Join business groups or at least visit a few. Do some 'free' work to build your confidence and start your own consulting practice.

If you want a title and a company paycheck, then you may need to play a game or two with college degrees and certifications (some you may never use) to qualify for an interview.

However, if your people networking skills pay off, you may be able to by-pass some of the certs/degrees for certain positions simply because someone KNOWS the work you do and can do.

And not to discourage you, but telling folks to restart/power cycle and doing password resets are a large part of a corporate IT person's day. Especially when you go over 20 people in a company. This menial task is not something just everyone in the company can do nor should have access to do. And (if you work in a law firm for example) your job would be to make sure they are all able to do their job...no matter how mundane it becomes on your end. They want to spend their time with clients, cases and in court (or avoiding court) not resetting a password.

So, back to the beginning, if you never were Jr Network Admin (by title) then do not say you were. However, you may list or reference the type of tasks you handled and summarize it 'similar' to a Jr. Network Admin if it in fact was this type of role solely to qualify the title you held.

And yes, you are likely overstressed and impatient Most here have likely experienced this at some point in our careers...the good news, in a few decades, you'll calm down


Try helping some church groups/ schools/ non-profits, etc.. you NEVER know who sits on the boards of those organizations and if you do great work, they may notice...this would be a nice 'social networking' step!

Valsacar

IMO at low level jobs certifications help show that you have a base level of knowledge and can learn more. At mid level jobs good certs might just be enough to tip you over another applicant with similar work experience. At high level jobs... it's a check in the box.

Slowhand

First of all, welcome to the Bay Area. . . for what it's worth. You have to keep a couple of things in mind, living out here at the edge of the world:

It's a cut-throat market, especially in San Francisco, Santa Clara, San Jose, Oakland, Berkeley, and Palo Alto. Working anywhere but the aforementioned places will WITHER YOUR SOUL. (Seriously, go visit Walnut Creek sometime.) A lot of people out here are tech-savvy, and a lot of companies that are hiring will cherry-pick to a degree that even people from the likes of Seattle or New York would scratch their heads over. Recruiters know all this, and 99% of them will try to screw you and/or the companies they're working with in order to place a warm body in a job so they can make their commission.

All that being said, there is hope. Yes, certifications do matter. The downside is, out here the CCNA really is considered an entry-level, associate-grade cert. You might just have to knuckle under and get a helpdesk type of job until you've managed to build up your credentials to mid-to-senior level stuff like CCNP, MCITP: EA, or RHCE. . . and so forth. That's not to say you CANNOT get a network admin or NOC position with what you've got, but it's going to take equal parts skill and luck at this point. As I said, this is a tough job-market, there are a large number of people coming out of the UC and California State University systems with Bachelor's and Master's degrees looking for IT work, and they're pumping out those certs too.

The thing to take away from this is that it's tough, but not impossible. You might have to take some work you're not happy with at first, but it'll get better as you progress through your certs and build up your experience.


On the subject of recruiters, however, I feel I need to say more: in almost all cases, they're scum. Most of the ones you talk to will lie about how much a job pays, try to lure you in with a higher hourly rate and then chop you off at the knees when they know you're desperate and need the job. My roommate initially was told he'd be hired on for $23 an hour for a contract-gig, by a recruiter, they ended up "throwing him a bone" with $19/hour after threatening to knock him down to $12. Don't let them push you around, don't let them lie to you or try to lead you by the nose when it comes to the jobs you're applying for. Make it clear that you're looking for work in networking, not helpdesk, and push back when they try to sell you something else. . . and it is selling that they do, despite how they try to make it look. Another tactic they use, (which can sometimes work in your favor,) is to "bend the truth" with a hiring company about your skills and shove you into work you don't know how to do or have no interest in, it's important to keep an eye out for this kind of stuff as well.


As you're looking for work, don't be intimidated by the requirements. It's true everywhere, but especially in the San Francisco Bay Area. These companies shop around for the people with the biggest skillset, but they're not actually expecting an entry-level NOC engineer to know BGP, be an expert C++/Python/PowerShell/Perl programmer, have expert-level knowledge of SQL Server and MySQL, a Master's degree in Computer Science, and have years and years of experience with both Windows and Linux. . . on top of having a CCNA and being able to do the day-to-day tasks a junior network engineer should be able to do. What they're doing is weeding and sorting, trying to lure in a mid-to-senior level person that's willing to work for peanuts because the economy isn't too healthy. If you look at a job-listing and feel like you could do this work, but then "additional skills" or "other skills that would be a BIG PLUS" include crazy things, don't worry about it. Apply, apply, apply, Get your resume as polished and refined as you can, same thing for your cover-letter, and get your name out there. Dice, CareerBuilder, Craigslist, and LinkedIn are HUGE out here, lots of hiring managers and recruiters sift through those sites and little else. (In fact, I've gotten all but one of my IT jobs through Craigslist.)

---

The 'tl;dr' version:

• Don't use recruiters are a gauge of your skills or your worth as job-candidate. They're essentially commissioned sales-people trying to meet quotas, and will behave no different from their counterparts in car-dealerships or retail stores.
• Sift through the job-boards and find jobs you think you can handle. Don't worry about too much the educational or 'extra' requirements, just send out your resume and then see what happens.
• Push yourself to go further, even if you have to take a helpdesk job in the meantime. Shoot to earn your CCNP and keep applying for networking-gigs as you go. The more experience and credentials you can put under your belt, the more of an edge you'll have.
• When it gets right down to it, this is one of the most brutal IT job-markets in the country. Once you get your foot in the door and start down that network engineering path, you're golden. If you can make it here you can make it anywhere, as the old saying goes.
• And lastly, don't give up. It'll get better, as long as you keep going. Lots of us feel your pain because we've been there, so you're neither alone nor without hope.

Roguetadhg

Certifications open the door for Practical Experience. They help provide a framework of knowledge for yourself to learn, to give a basic foundation of how things work in the given area. I like to think of it as the door that makes you see if you 'really' like what you're studying. Making your way through some of this crap makes you realize that you either love it or hate it.

Practical experience.. well there's the golden ticket

networker050184

Certifications should be used to certify experience and knowledge with a certain product/technology IMO. The certification is pretty useless without the knowledge and experience.

rsutton

Welcome to the Yay area! Check out Craigslist, Dice & Monster. There are plenty of companies that value certifications, but experience trumps all.

N2IT

networker050184 wrote: »

Certifications should be used to certify experience and knowledge with a certain product/technology IMO. The certification is pretty useless without the knowledge and experience.

+1

I think you have two types of certifications. Ones that are entry level and show you have a basic understanding. I believe those can be used both, to frame your knowledge and/or to show you have basic knowledge without real world knowledge

There are also professional certifications, these are only to be used if you have at least some of the experience. Having 0 experience and getting pro certifications without real world knowledge devalues the certifications for the professionals and doesn't do much for the holder.

bermovick

N2IT wrote: »

+1

I think you have two types of certifications. Ones that are entry level and show you have a basic understanding. I believe those can be used both, to frame your knowledge and/or to show you have basic knowledge without real world knowledge

There are also professional certifications, these are only to be used if you have at least some of the experience. Having 0 experience and getting pro certifications without real world knowledge devalues the certifications for the professionals and doesn't do much for the holder.

Except to prove that I can study my ass off and learn whatever technology you can throw at me?

I mean it's not always a choice between the two - it's knowledge and that cert, or a big nothing at my current job. I'll keep from stagnating any way that I can, thank you.

DigitalZeroOne

For the most part, there isn't a rule on certs, some companies may want you to have cert A and B, and some won't care. The only area that I know certs matter, is in government work, some of those jobs absolutely require a certain certification, and sometimes a degree.

My rule on certs is that they can't hurt (unless somehow you passed and have no knowledge of the technology), and if the expense isn't too much, then go ahead and get it if it's a technology you're interested in. Sometimes new people (I'm not saying the OP) think just because they have a cert, they are all of a sudden an expert, and that the cert guarantees them a job. I'm sure some of these tech schools don't help when they spout off statistics for jobs and certifications, but that's another story.

Just stick with it, try and network some, you may want to look for tech groups. I know they have VMware user groups (VMUG) in certain cities, maybe look for one in networking...it can't hurt.

N2IT

bermovick wrote: »

Except to prove that I can study my ass off and learn whatever technology you can throw at me?

I mean it's not always a choice between the two - it's knowledge and that cert, or a big nothing at my current job. I'll keep from stagnating any way that I can, thank you.

There are always choices. Networking at social events, joining groups like this, labbing at home and learning the technology. But to certify in a technology that you have 0 real world experience not only hurts the industry it hurts the individual who chooses this poor strategy.

Sometimes it's not about you but about your craft and disrespecting the craft by prematurely certifying in a technology you have 0 real world experience in. Life isn't fair sometimes and that can mean waiting your turn.

Can't you learn a technology and become good at it without certifying? Can't you develop other strategies that will give you an advantage for employment?

networker050184

My thoughts exactly on the whole certification world N2IT. I don't understand the approach of getting a certification to learn about something. Isn't that kind of backwards? Shouldn't the certification verify that you have been there, done that and know what you are doing? Of course there are entry level certifications, this is more pointed towards "professional" and "expert" level certifications.

Asif Dasl

I think this is all well and good in an ideal world but many MSPs get their techs to certify in stuff they are not experts at to maintain MS competencies or to enter new competencies. I agree for the most part, entry level certs can be gained before experience but the higher you go the harder it is to pass without real world experience - few places would hire a CCNP who hasn't worked in a CCNA position - but there is nothing stopping that person learning CCNP material and taking the exam when the time is right.

djfunz

Thanks for the warm greetings everyone. The weather has certainly been a welcome improvement from where I was previously living in Bremen. Just to comment on a couple of things.

I have updated profiles and resumes on all of the common job boards like Dice, Monster, and Careerbuilder along with LinkedIn. I actively search and apply for whatever Networking or NOC position I see within reason of course. I search Indeed as well even though I think that's just an amalgamation of other boards. I haven't really tried Craigslist yet because I was always under the impression that enterprises wouldn't resort to such a "humble" way of looking for candidates. I've also recently heard that one can search for jobs via LinkedIn. If that method is effective in rendering results, I couldn't say.

The idea to join business groups sounds intriguing but I'll have to expose my ignorance a bit and confess I have no idea what that entails. If you could perhaps elaborate and point me in the right right direction, I would be grateful.

So regarding recruiters. Coming from an Architectural background, I have absolutely no experience when it comes to recruiters. It's only when I began in this field that I started hearing of contract work and recruiters. I have been in active communication with three in the area. I have been to their offices and spoken with their "senior" staff regarding placement. Robert Half, TekSystems, and Advantis. No idea if any of you have experience with them but Advantis seems a little more disingenuous than the others.

I really do appreciate the time some of you dedicate to the responses. I know it's easy to sometimes just peruse and let someone else write a response. I'm not giving up. I'm balancing looking for employment, searching for living accommodations and time to study all in a day. I don't want to forget all the great material I've acquired while studying for the CCNA. I'm finding the Network Warrior book to be a great refresher.

tpatt100

networker050184 wrote: »

Certifications should be used to certify experience and knowledge with a certain product/technology IMO. The certification is pretty useless without the knowledge and experience.

+1 to this

Back when I was starting out I pursued certs for stuff I wanted to work in, or I thought I wanted to work in. All I ended up with was an alphabet of crap on my resume.

So I cleared some off my resume because even though work paid for the classes or cert I had no real world experience. CCNA, Solaris gone. I got one other that I can't even remember what it was, Oh yeah it was CIW, at the time I had no idea what that cert was but work paid for it.

Then I stopped and only got certs on what I was doing and that was Microsoft and Citrix. I pursued Checkpoint but got lazy but I was doing that for five years.


Did the CISSP, Security+ because I was actually working in security.

I know it is not what some people want to hear but speaking for myself I am a "use it or lose it" type of guy. Once I learn it if I am not regularly applying something from it, poof there it goes.

Forsaken_GA

djfunz wrote: »

Does it really make sense to get all these certs with no relatable previous job title to back them up? I'm perhaps overstressed and impatient at the moment but I appreciate any sound advice this forum can give to ease my mind.

That depends entirely on what you want the certs to do.

If you've fallen into the perception that Cert = Job, then you've made a grave mistake. The certification itself is less important than the knowledge you gain from pursuing it, so if you lack experience to back it up, then I'd say the certification is even more important, as it makes you go learn stuff you haven't done before. Do not expect your cert to do your marketing for you.

With very few exceptions, you're not going to be able to pass a cert, put it on your resume, and wait for the opportunities to come rolling in. You still have to go shake the bushes and make something fall out.

And sometimes you need to approach your career from the side. I've always been a network focused guy, but I couldn't get a network job just off my CCNA to save my life. What I did instead was take a job that had networking as a major part of it's environment, and work my way in that way. I was a linux admin for a year and a half before the company I worked for let me play with the network, and I was given that opportunity because I made friends with the network engineer and made it very well known I was interested in moving over.

They let me do little stuff at first, that was well beneath my capability, but downtime meant a major loss of revenue, so I understood their caution. Eventually, I gained enough trust so that when the network engineer had a personal emergency at the beginning of a data center move (and this is *not* a trivial undertaking), that when I offered to step up, they were willing to let me, and after I brought it off without a hitch, there was never a question about my capabilities again.

That job provided me with enough experience that when I interviewed down the road for other jobs, I was able to discuss operational issues (the stuff they DON'T teach you in the Cisco courses) with confidence and competence.

Bottom line is that, unless you know someone with an in, this isn't going to come easy. You do have to work at it. You need to look for other methods of reaching your goal.

N2IT

@ tpatt

alphabet crap is exactly the truth. I have that now, I list about 1/3 of my certifications. I personally think listing a ton of them is a terrible idea, it takes the attention away from the ones with real value. If you are applying for a management position the only comptia I list is project +. I've been thinking about not listing it at all.

I think with certification less is more. Everything in moderation, certifications are not excluded.

Personally if you list to many certifications that are all over the place the HR rep and hiring manager could potentially look at you and think this guys doesn't know what he wants to do. IMO that's not a good thing.

Forsaken_GA

Yup, I've started removing certs from my resume that aren't relevant to the job I'm applying for. When applying for a network engineer position, they really don't give a crap about my A+ or GSEC, it's not relevant to the position. My Cisco certs, otoh...

N2IT

@Forsaken

Yeah you might want to keep those Cisco ones on there

bermovick

N2IT wrote: »

There are always choices. Networking at social events, joining groups like this, labbing at home and learning the technology. But to certify in a technology that you have 0 real world experience not only hurts the industry it hurts the individual who chooses this poor strategy.

Sometimes it's not about you but about your craft and disrespecting the craft by prematurely certifying in a technology you have 0 real world experience in. Life isn't fair sometimes and that can mean waiting your turn.

Can't you learn a technology and become good at it without certifying? Can't you develop other strategies that will give you an advantage for employment?

Well, if you're including those things then it's a bit different - I was referring to my ability to answer the dreaded "have you done X in a production environment" questions where I have to say NO, DAMMIT! That's why I'm applying here! (I don't really say that of course)

I lab at home all the time learning new things (whether it's directly applicable to a specific certification or not), and I try to point that out to make up for the "I don't really get to do anything"-ness of my current job, but I really get the impression that without anything PROVING that I know how to configure an IGP or BGP (or pick another topic I'd pick up from CCNA/CCNP studies), the cert is all I have showing that I do/know anything, even if my knowledge is far too specific (IE the things the cert exam covers), which I'm well and uncomfortably aware is the case. Perhaps it's a failing on my part for not knowing other options available, but it is what it is.

^^ is a very large run-on sentence

cmitchell_00

Man I love this topic; it's a very good one. I think every so often this topic needs to be discussed because I believe we all have had that feeling about how can I get experience if you don't hire me; certification or not. I hear it all day at the shop from different tech's and how places they worked in the past wouldn't let them touch areas with no experience. However, I have read in the past on other blogs about CCIE's who didn't have real world experience but; they got jobs based off of the certification. I just feel it's really an double edge sword where you need the certification's to get into the door but; with some good experience you can be in the industry for years.

rockd24

I feel getting the CCNA before looking for a networking position is definitely worth it. If he's struggling to find a noc position now his chances wouldn't be any better without the cert. At least now he has networking knowledge and the cert already completed. The ccna isn't going to land you a network admin job with no experience, but it will help you obtain an entry level noc position, internship, or a jr network admin position.

I definitely don't agree with the perspective that certs should only be used to validate your knowledge and experience. Obtaining the cert is going to give you a lot of that knowledge and help some get their foot in the door.

My road definitely hasn't been smooth it took me a year to find a networking job after getting my ccna. I was able to eventually find a noc position and now currently doing a paid internship and finally getting some experience. I also know two people personally who had no experience who couldn't find a job right away with their ccna, but after getting their CCNP they were able to find good jobs fast.

Tesl

N2IT wrote: »

There are always choices. Networking at social events, joining groups like this, labbing at home and learning the technology. But to certify in a technology that you have 0 real world experience not only hurts the industry it hurts the individual who chooses this poor strategy.

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but felt compelled to reply to this one. Just because I disagree extremely strongly.

If a person has the knowledge / skills to pass a certification, they absolutely should. The certification represents that the person can do X and Y, with knowledge of Z to a standard those who maintain the certification are happy with. It does NOT certify that the person has any number of years in the business or real experience. If the company that provides the exam wants to do that, they can require work experience like the CISSP would.

If someone has the knowledge, it cannot hurt anyone that they get the piece of paper that says they know it. Their CV will also show they don't have the relevant experience, and an interviewer will see that very clearly and be able to make their own judgements from that. What the certification does at least allow a person to demonstrate is some knowledge to some level. I honestly can't see how it hurts the industry at all if they actually do have that knowledge and skillset.

If we are talking about people who just **** the exam so can pass without actually studying, then I think I can agree that devalues the certification. Otherwise I don't have a problem with it.

Sometimes it's not about you but about your craft and disrespecting the craft by prematurely certifying in a technology you have 0 real world experience in. Life isn't fair sometimes and that can mean waiting your turn.

"Waiting your turn" is nonsense. Some people enjoy these technologies more and study more, and therefore know more. Just because they are more knowledgable than their level of experience suggests doesn't mean they should stop in order to let some other guy go first. It doesn't make sense.

Can't you learn a technology and become good at it without certifying? Can't you develop other strategies that will give you an advantage for employment?

But WHY??? I don't understand. In your own words, you are asking them not to certify when they DO know the technology. What else is a certification for other than to demonstrate a person has learned a technology? Its not saying anything about level of experience and nor should it. What it appears you are trying to do is to stop smarter better people from jumping in front of you in the queue, just because you don't want to get certified yourself. I otherwise genuinely don't understand.

In my case I'm going to be 27 with 6 years experience as a computer programmer in an IB, who also holds a CCNP and RHCE. I've never had a job as a networking engineer or a system administrator, but if I have the knowledge why shouldn't I be able to hold a certificate that demonstrates that? Maybe for my next job I'll apply for a network engineer job, and my CV will say "I have no experience, but I do have a decent level of knowledge in the area as this certification demonstrates". I don't see how it either harms myself nor the industry, assuming that I do indeed have the required skillset.

NetworkVeteran

djfunz wrote: »

No idea if any of you have experience with them but Advantis seems a little more disingenuous than the others.

I believe most recruiters are good people. They just have different goals than your own. If you let customers have their way, a new BMW would cost twenty grand. If you let auto-dealership have their way, it would cost one hundred grand.

Advantis? Run, and run fast.

CCNA is an entry-level certification for networking. Usually you need something else to bolster it. For example: (a) a degree in CS or EE if you're applying to big companies, (b) supporting certifications like CCNA Wireless, Voice, & Security if you're applying to small companies, (c) a bit of experience in a similar environment for either. Working two to eight weeks on one certification is not enough to impress in an area as technical and competitive as the Bay Area. Sorry for the hard knock. Put up or shut up.

spiderjericho

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

CCNA is an entry-level certification for networking. Usually you need something else to bolster it. Working two to eight weeks on one certification is not enough to impress in an area as technical and competitive as the Bay Area. Sorry for the hard knock. Put up or shut up.

I agree. You could be a CCIE, but without the job experience it's not worthless but it doesn't demonstrate to an organization that you're going to be competent to be a network engineer if all you have is lab experience, which doesn't take into consideration a lot of issues that five to 10 years of experience will provide, especially when you're talking about Internet, BGP, users, other technologies, supporting technology internal/external to your environment.

It's sort of a catch-22. You need both. I'd definitely take some of the advice in this thread to heart and volunteer to be a church administrator, work in a small shop where you're going to get hands on with everything, intern, etc.

N2IT

Tesl wrote: »

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but felt compelled to reply to this one. Just because I disagree extremely strongly.

If a person has the knowledge / skills to pass a certification, they absolutely should. The certification represents that the person can do X and Y, with knowledge of Z to a standard those who maintain the certification are happy with. It does NOT certify that the person has any number of years in the business or real experience. If the company that provides the exam wants to do that, they can require work experience like the CISSP would.

If someone has the knowledge, it cannot hurt anyone that they get the piece of paper that says they know it. Their CV will also show they don't have the relevant experience, and an interviewer will see that very clearly and be able to make their own judgements from that. What the certification does at least allow a person to demonstrate is some knowledge to some level. I honestly can't see how it hurts the industry at all if they actually do have that knowledge and skillset.

If we are talking about people who just **** the exam so can pass without actually studying, then I think I can agree that devalues the certification. Otherwise I don't have a problem with it.



"Waiting your turn" is nonsense. Some people enjoy these technologies more and study more, and therefore know more. Just because they are more knowledgable than their level of experience suggests doesn't mean they should stop in order to let some other guy go first. It doesn't make sense.



But WHY??? I don't understand. In your own words, you are asking them not to certify when they DO know the technology. What else is a certification for other than to demonstrate a person has learned a technology? Its not saying anything about level of experience and nor should it. What it appears you are trying to do is to stop smarter better people from jumping in front of you in the queue, just because you don't want to get certified yourself. I otherwise genuinely don't understand.

In my case I'm going to be 27 with 6 years experience as a computer programmer in an IB, who also holds a CCNP and RHCE. I've never had a job as a networking engineer or a system administrator, but if I have the knowledge why shouldn't I be able to hold a certificate that demonstrates that? Maybe for my next job I'll apply for a network engineer job, and my CV will say "I have no experience, but I do have a decent level of knowledge in the area as this certification demonstrates". I don't see how it either harms myself nor the industry, assuming that I do indeed have the required skillset.

With all due respect to the previous poster I will attempt to keep this aligned with their original message. He/She has noticed their certifications are not opening up doors that they thought they should. This is because they lack experience. At least this is their observation. I too have experienced this early in my career. As a senior guy I like to set expectations for people trying to break into the field. A lot of us attempt to do this. Without experience it can be nearly impossible.

Throwing more and more certifications at your CV is not going to get it done. He could study for another year get his CCNP and still be resetting passwords. I've seen it and it can get the employee to resent the IT field entirely. The OP has earned his A+ N+ and CCNA. Those are great achievements not to be taken lightly. What he/she needs to do now is network with groups of people like minded. Get their face and name out there, this is so critical. I hear so many people saying I can't get a job or they won't hire me. You have to be willing to do the leg work. Like it or not employment is like sales. How do you increase the amount of sales you achieve in a day, week, month, year? Double the amount of connections you have and interactions. This is the same with job hunting. Getting to know people, asking them for their time and how to get in the field is great way to achieve this.

There are 2 forum members that live in the same area. I would kindly ask to meet them out and start networking there. That's how it's done, not by getting 50 certs.


This post was a plea for assistance. You went straight for my post, which seemed more like an attack. Next time think a little bit before hijacking a thread because someone hurt your feelings. If you respond back to my post how about offering some advice to the original poster. You are 27 with 6 years of experience in development. Sounds like you have a lot going for you, maybe you could share some knowledge with the OP. Instead of making pathetic claims that I want to derail someones career for my own advantage.

erpadmin

networker050184 wrote: »

Certifications should be used to certify experience and knowledge with a certain product/technology IMO. The certification is pretty useless without the knowledge and experience.

100% in agreement to this. Especially when I got into the field barely out of high school and with no certifications to my name. Certs would come much, much later (as well as a degree.)

A certification without experience is pretty much useless. Certifications, by themselves, will not open one's eyes to the real world crap that IT pros (from the novice to veterans) experience.

rockd24

For entry level positions I would rather have the guy with a CCNA (assuming they didn't **** it) with no experience versus the guy who knows nothing about networking and has no certification or experience. Having a cert and no experience doesn't hurt the ones who have the cert and experience that's what a resume and references are for. I just don't see the argument against getting it. I mean I see people mentioning how hard it is to get started, the cert can definitely better your chances of finding something entry level in a noc, an internship from a cisco partner, or a jr network admin position.

You definitely would need to set realistic expectations, but its far from being a waste of time.

erpadmin

rockd24 wrote: »

For entry level positions I would rather have the guy with a CCNA (assuming they didn't **** it) with no experience versus the guy who knows nothing about networking and has no certification or experience.

Well, golly-gee, Skip...when you put it that way....that's like saying I'd rather hire a doctor who just graduated medical school with no experience versus a guy who knows nothing about medicine and has no medical training or experience.

However, since these discussions tend to be about someone who spent thousands of dollars at a tech school with the promise of millions after getting a couple of 201x's top 10 certs with no experience, versus someone who's been in IT with experience.....I would tend to look at just qualifiable "experience."

(Yes, Virginia...that's an exagerration of a very valid truth... )

rockd24

erpadmin wrote: »

Well, golly-gee, Skip...when you put it that way....that's like saying I'd rather hire a doctor who just graduated medical school with no experience versus a guy who knows nothing about medicine and has no medical training or experience.

However, since these discussions tend to be about someone who spent thousands of dollars at a tech school with the promise of millions after getting a couple of 201x's top 10 certs with no experience, versus someone who's been in IT with experience.....I would tend to look at just qualifiable "experience."

(Yes, Virginia...that's an exagerration of a very valid truth... )

You realize that the OP is trying to get networking experience right? I think my comparison is a lot more relevant to this post/discussion than yours. There's obviously other ways to get the ccna without spending thousands at some tech school and we aren't talking about people who already have experience. Even in your scenario it's not a waste, because a lot of employers will want the certification even with the experience. Also if they aren't working now and have the time to do the cert it's best to get it out of the way now then doing after you are working full time.

For the people who want to get their start in IT, having a cert and learning the concepts definitely will not hurt when applying for entry level positions and going to technical interviews.