WGU: Switch from IT: Sec to IT: ND&M?

TofTheGoat

I'll make this short and sweet. I've searched here for threads on this very topic, the Security program at WGU versus Network Design & Management. I feel like I have the interest in the security and assurance side of things, but I'm currently in a sales job and haven't even started out in my IT career. Is ND&M a better choice? I thought in the beginning it would be great to have CCNA and CCNA Security, but looking at the differences between the WGU programs and hearing how long people take to study for CCNA, it seems like that should come after WGU (on my own). I know that this now puts me in the boat for MCITP, but I feel like for someone starting an IT career it may be a better move and help me find a job quicker. Thoughts?

Also, any WGU students out there change majors during your program? Is it easy to do? Have my weekly conf call with my mentor tomorrow so I plan to bring this up then.

tr1x

Seems like MCITP would take longer than CCNA. Are you more into networking or system administration? That's the big difference between the two, it seems. I'm currently doing IT Sec as well.

You're right though, it sucks that preparing for the certs takes so long, really delays the degree. I was lucky enough to have four of the certs before I started my degree, now I just have the three Cisco certs left. I recommend to everyone that they certify first, then apply to WGU and finish the degree... saves a ton of money.

N2IT

Tr1x which Cisco ones do you need?

Iristheangel

tr1x wrote: »

Seems like MCITP would take longer than CCNA. Are you more into networking or system administration? That's the big difference between the two, it seems. I'm currently doing IT Sec as well.

You're right though, it sucks that preparing for the certs takes so long, really delays the degree. I was lucky enough to have four of the certs before I started my degree, now I just have the three Cisco certs left. I recommend to everyone that they certify first, then apply to WGU and finish the degree... saves a ton of money.

+1 here.

I'm doing my IT-Sec degree as well but I had my MCSE (which is very similar to the MCITP:EA) before I started WGU. It really just depends on what you want to do: networking or system administration. It took me about 6 or 8 months to get my MCSE and it was a LONG 6-8 months. I was bored out of my mind to be honest so it was harder to motivate myself to want to read the coursework. I could have upgraded to the MCITP:EA with two tests and then have a large chunk of my WGU degree waived if I chose a different major but I chose IT-Sec instead. I haven't regretted it for a moment.

I eventually had to take my CCNA but it only took me 2 months of studying to pass ICDN2 (ICDN1 was pretty easy since I had my Network+ before I started and that was like half the test) and you know what? I *loved* every moment of it. Studying for the CCNA was a lot of fun and I learned a lot. I didn't even try to use the WGU coursework. Instead, I bought the official CCNA books by Wendell Odom at $37 and used the sims that came with the class. Before I even finished the course, I realized how much I really enjoyed networking and bought the CCNP set

My point is this: It should never depend on what's "fastest" to study or how fast you can get that piece of paper, but on how much you enjoy learning the subject.

Nobylspoon

There is a lot of concern regarding the future value of the MCITP:EA with last weeks announcement from MS. Currently the MCITP:SA and MCITP:EA both meet the new MCSA 2008 requirements which makes the extra 2 exams required for the MCITP:EA feel like a waste.

I personally would look into the BS:IT Network Admin path. This will get you the MCITP:SA (also MCSA 2008 ) along with CCNA. If they didn't recently add the MTA requirements to the degree plan I would probably make the switch myself.

KeithC

You can only switch your emphasis between terms. As for better marketability I would guess they are about even. Have you looked for jobs using those keywords? I would think the CCNA may be easier to study for then the MCITP without any previous server knowledge. Not because of the two test versus four but I believe Cisco test are more straight-forward.

TofTheGoat

Thanks for all of the awesome responses so far!

tr1x wrote: »

Are you more into networking or system administration?

I don't know!! I guess it's harder to say because I don't really have any job experience yet. I think I would be more interested in sysadmin, but I still want to have a good baseline knowledge of networking too. That's why I was thinking ND&M since you still get Net+. Any protips on figuring myself out??

Iristheangel wrote: »

I didn't even try to use the WGU coursework. Instead, I bought the official CCNA books by Wendell Odom at $37 and used the sims that came with the class. Before I even finished the course, I realized how much I really enjoyed networking and bought the CCNP set

My point is this: It should never depend on what's "fastest" to study or how fast you can get that piece of paper, but on how much you enjoy learning the subject.

What does WGU give you for the studying? TestOut LabSim? Is that what you're talking about with the sims that came with the class?

For me it's definitely not about getting the piece of paper, its really about learning the material. I just meant with CCNA (I guess MCITP too from what everyone is saying) is that I want to be able to take my time and really learn the material, rather than feeling rushed to get it done because I need to finish a minimum number of CU's.

KeithC wrote: »

You can only switch your emphasis between terms. As for better marketability I would guess they are about even. Have you looked for jobs using those keywords? I would think the CCNA may be easier to study for then the MCITP without any previous server knowledge. Not because of the two test versus four but I believe Cisco test are more straight-forward.

Cool, thanks for the knowledge!

Iristheangel

I believe they give us Testout to use and another Ciscopress simulator. I enjoyed using the CiscoPress Simulator and the CCNA official books. I think Testout leaves out a lot of so I didn't bother. I bought the books and committed to reading one chapter a day. If you make little goals and don't feel too rushed, you actually can get through it easily. After reading the books, I printed out all the different simulations from the simulator (about 4 work books worth) and spent weeks running through every scenario.

I still use the sims from time to time to keep my knowledge sharp. I can pass a technical interview in networking with easy. I can't say the same for about 80% MCSE knowledge...

TofTheGoat

Nobylspoon wrote: »

There is a lot of concern regarding the future value of the MCITP:EA with last weeks announcement from MS. Currently the MCITP:SA and MCITP:EA both meet the new MCSA 2008 requirements which makes the extra 2 exams required for the MCITP:EA feel like a waste.

I personally would look into the BS:IT Network Admin path. This will get you the MCITP:SA (also MCSA 2008 ) along with CCNA. If they didn't recently add the MTA requirements to the degree plan I would probably make the switch myself.

I forgot to ask about this... what exactly happened? I just tried Googling it but all I could come up with was a report from last week about incorporating more cloud computing into the exams.

demonfurbie

personally ive gone to the standard generic it degree and will get certs after in the areas i have interest in

that is always an option

Nobylspoon

TofTheGoat wrote: »

I forgot to ask about this... what exactly happened? I just tried Googling it but all I could come up with was a report from last week about incorporating more cloud computing into the exams.

Good thread on the topic here: http://www.techexams.net/forums/general-certification/76382-microsoft-going-back-mcse-title-2012-technology-private-cloud-sql.html

In short:

MCITP certs are now "legacy". They will continue to hold "value" as long as a company is using Server 2008.
April 2013 is the cutoff to obtain your MCITP.
They are going back to MCSA/MCSE but the acronym meaning is different than the 2000/2003 MCSA/MCSE.
Only a couple of the MCSE 2008 paths have been announced. More are still to come.
MCSA 2008 is currently being awarded to holders of MCITP:SA and MCITP:EA.
MCSE 2008: Personal Cloud requires MCSA 2008 + 2 additional exams.

The thread I linked should answer any other questions. Still a lot up in the air that should be clarified by MS in due time.

tr1x

N2IT wrote: »

Tr1x which Cisco ones do you need?

CCENT, CCNA, CCNA Securiry

TofTheGoat.. perhaps just get your degree and you can get other certs after you graduate? Even if you're a sysadmin that Cisco knowledge is still very nice to have.

TofTheGoat

tr1x wrote: »

TofTheGoat.. perhaps just get your degree and you can get other certs after you graduate? Even if you're a sysadmin that Cisco knowledge is still very nice to have.

Yeah, which is why now I think I should do the Network Admin emphasis (because I would at least keep the CCNA on there)... I'm so confused!! Tried talking to my mentor about it today during our weekly call but she had no answers for me. I get I just need a better explanation of possible job outcomes for each WGU emphasis (out of Sec, Net Admin and ND&M). It's not like they're THAT different, but just different enough.

tr1x

Honestly all three can get you the same jobs. I'm getting the security degree but it doesn't mean I have to find a security job - and I more than likely won't. Your certifications, interests, and knowledge will influence your specialization more than the degree. I wouldn't worry about it so much. That's my opinion...

TofTheGoat

tr1x wrote: »

Honestly all three can get you the same jobs. I'm getting the security degree but it doesn't mean I have to find a security job - and I more than likely won't. Your certifications, interests, and knowledge will influence your specialization more than the degree. I wouldn't worry about it so much. That's my opinion...

So since I took a database class in college and was absolutely bored out of my mind, should I then switch out of Security? Its the only one of the three with CIW Database Design Specialist and MTA Database Admin Fundamentals. Or is that all the more reason to take it?? lol

I'd ask what the biggest difference is between the MCITP Server Admin and MCITP Enterprise Admin, but it seems by the time I get to those the cert itself will be completely different...

erpadmin

tr1x wrote: »

Honestly all three can get you the same jobs. I'm getting the security degree but it doesn't mean I have to find a security job - and I more than likely won't. Your certifications, interests, and knowledge will influence your specialization more than the degree. I wouldn't worry about it so much. That's my opinion...

I have to go with this.......

If I had known that Microsoft would have pulled the crap it did with the MCITP:EA (making it the same cert as the MCITP:SA) plus the difficulty in finishing the EA by the time I needed to, I would have gone the regular IT route and called it a day. I always thought the MCITP:EA was a MCSE-like cert...however Microsoft not only said no, it's not, but we're gonna bring the MCSE back! Yeah the letters mean something else, but who cares....

Not for nothing, but someone with an NDM emphasis, Security emphasis, NA emphasis, etc, with no experience isn't going to get an admin job making $60k a year. It doesn't exactly work that way. A WGU degree does a fine job stating one has a degree, but that's about it. You're still gonna need to leverage that degree into a job that will get you IT experience so that you can make that $60k+ a year.

tr1x

TofTheGoat wrote: »

So since I took a database class in college and was absolutely bored out of my mind, should I then switch out of Security? Its the only one of the three with CIW Database Design Specialist and MTA Database Admin Fundamentals. Or is that all the more reason to take it?? lol

I'd ask what the biggest difference is between the MCITP Server Admin and MCITP Enterprise Admin, but it seems by the time I get to those the cert itself will be completely different...

Well, you're not going to like ALL the classes. I've had to take a few programming classes that I hate (taking one through WGU, took one for my AAS) but that doesn't mean I should change majors. You should be a well rounded IT person. You may not like databases, but learning about them will help you interface with the database people you work with.. and that's valuable. Unless you really hate a lot of your current classes and feel you have chosen the wrong major, I'd stick with it. Look over all the course outlines for each major and give it some thought, I bet you'll see classes in each major that you don't want to take.

Iristheangel

tr1x wrote: »

Well, you're not going to like ALL the classes. I've had to take a few programming classes that I hate (taking one through WGU, took one for my AAS) but that doesn't mean I should change majors. You should be a well rounded IT person. You may not like databases, but learning about them will help you interface with the database people you work with.. and that's valuable. Unless you really hate a lot of your current classes and feel you have chosen the wrong major, I'd stick with it. Look over all the course outlines for each major and give it some thought, I bet you'll see classes in each major that you don't want to take.

Ugh, HATED database class but LOATHED the programming ones more. I can see the uses for both so I'm not complaining about that but it was REALLY hard to get my head around both. Maybe it was the study material but I barely squeaked by both.

swild

If you want to take your time, listen to demonfurbie. Take the IT degree with no emphasis and then get the certs you want after.

In the end it doesn't matter which one you choose, they all give a Bachelor of Science in Information Technology. It doesn't even list the emphasis in the degree. I think a lot of people miss that.

erpadmin

swild wrote: »

In the end it doesn't matter which one you choose, they all give a Bachelor of Science in Information Technology. It doesn't even list the emphasis in the degree. I think a lot of people miss that.

I see the degree every day on my wall in my office....really hard to miss that.

In all seriousness, the one person who had advised that when I was going for the degree was petedude. I was aware of it, as were many people. But the allure of earning certs that I should have earned early on in my degree gave me the opportunity to both validate my IT experience and earn a degree. If I had to do it over again, I would have opted for the regular degree OR the Business:IT one. The only reason why the latter wasn't considered was because it was outside of the Information Technology college and no one on this board was doing it. It was more important for me to perform this degree with the support system that I found on techexams....the business stuff I could pick up during graduate school, which is pretty much what I'm doing now.

But just speaking personally, I honestly would have never bothered with getting a BS from WGU if it weren't for the support group I found here. My whole thing for going NDM was out of pride and arrogance. But I have sheepskin that's on my wall now....and no one can take that away from me. The NDM emphasis was rough even for me, and I deal with MS 2K8 R2 servers EVERY day. I just don't deal with them the way Microsoft would test you on, but they are dealt with.

onesaint

erpadmin wrote: »

... But the allure of earning certs that I should have earned early on in my degree gave me the opportunity to both validate my IT experience and earn a degree. If I had to do it over again, I would have opted for the regular degree OR the Business:IT one. The only reason why the latter wasn't considered was because it was outside of the Information Technology college and no one on this board was doing it. It was more important for me to perform this degree with the support system that I found on techexams....the business stuff I could pick up during graduate school, which is pretty much what I'm doing now.

This sounds like the path I've chosen. I will finish my AAS:network security next spring and will begin WGU's BSIT:sec then. With the goal of picking up those business courses in grad school. I was in accounting previous to going into IT, so I have an understanding of the finance side, but am lacking some of the business side. Still the certifications and validation, along with the community are a strong arguement for the BSIT program.

Why would you select the other two options out of curiosity?

demonfurbie

if i had to start over i wouldve just picked the standard degree and been done by now but i started with the ndm degree and got to a breaking point with the mcitp classes and i work with servers daily since windows nt 4

the normal IT degree can be done fast, most likely the fastest then you can spec out in the certs you want instead of the certs wgu lined up

for me i want to do linux and have a degree, wgu does not offer a linux track

erpadmin

onesaint wrote: »

Why would you select the other two options out of curiosity?

You mean me or the OP?

The regular IT degree I could have done without the programming, but I took a C course at UMass Lowell...I wasn't able to finish it but I can deal with arrays and all of that. Pretty comfortable that I could have done it...I work with a bunch of developers if I got stuck.

The business degree had all the prereq stuff for an MBA program (Accounting, Finance, Economics, etc...) I could have definitely used that now.

I'm glad I got the NDM degree, but at this stage of the game, I'm not going to really be the one implementing servers....I want to be on the management side of the house.

onesaint

erpadmin wrote: »

You mean me or the OP?

The regular IT degree I could have done without the programming, but I took a C course at UMass Lowell...I wasn't able to finish it but I can deal with arrays and all of that. Pretty comfortable that I could have done it...I work with a bunch of developers if I got stuck.

The business degree had all the prereq stuff for an MBA program (Accounting, Finance, Economics, etc...) I could have definitely used that now.

I'm glad I got the NDM degree, but at this stage of the game, I'm not going to really be the one implementing servers....I want to be on the management side of the house.

You're good, I meant the two options you, erpadmin, were speaking of.

I'm sure it's on the forums, but what graduate program are you in now? Does it support your current goals and did you have these aspirations when you started the NDM program?

petedude

erpadmin wrote: »

In all seriousness, the one person who had advised that when I was going for the degree was petedude.

High praise that, to be quoted by erp.

Anyway, many good posts have turned up here. All I can add is to say that WGU's advertising slogan is something like "online, affordable, accelerated". If you go for harder certs as part of the program and don't have the mojo to pass them quickly, you might as well break out a bottle of correction fluid and paint over the word "accelerated" on your monitor.

'Nuff said.

NetworkVeteran

TofTheGoat wrote: »

I want to be able to take my time and really learn the material, rather than feeling rushed to get it done because I need to finish a minimum number of CU's.

If you can pass the CCNA exam, then you really know the material. The two are one and the same, so no worries there. The knowedge gap between "acing" and "just passing" the exam is relatively small, and they're better at detecting cheating than the old MCSE tests. It helps that the hands-on sim questions change slightly each and every time the test is taken.

erpadmin

onesaint wrote: »

You're good, I meant the two options you, erpadmin, were speaking of.

I'm sure it's on the forums, but what graduate program are you in now? Does it support your current goals and did you have these aspirations when you started the NDM program?

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/73386-erpadmins-grad-school-journey.html

It's all there (currently a short thread but it gets longer with time.

Plan on writing responses to that when I wake up later (I took a much needed day trip...when I wake up, I will feel a lot better.)