is the market that bad???

drkat

So.. I was just curious as to the going rate of some positions were and I of course have to stumble across this: Can someone please tell me WHAT THE HELL is wrong with this market?? I know it's just a Junior position but still... .. c'mon i'd expect to see 13.00/hr

Local Technology firm is seeking a "Jr. Technologist". This person must have a love for learning about new technology and have some pre-existing knowledge of computers and networking. The right candidate will be responsible for research of software, site building, minor server maintenance, and other duties as required by the technical staff. We are looking for someone that wants to learn the industry and build his or her career. Willing to train the right person! This is a part time position with the potential to be a full time position. Basic Unix/Linux skills required, we are not a windows shop.

• Location: Rochester, NY
• Compensation: $8/hour
• Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
• Please, no phone calls about this job!
• Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.

petedude

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Principals only? Linux? I'd expect to see at least $16 an hour!

I've seen these kinds of posts before, though. Small shops hoping to hire cheap. And they usually get what they pay for. Watch, the same job will be re-posted in about 3 months. Set your watch. . .

Plantwiz

The market is not 'bad'.

YOU need to prove your worth. Simply because an ad states the pay range, does not mean the company is locked into that range if the right type of candidate comes along. It may also be the company in question merely wants someone who is green...is willing to bear the burden of the green person 'cutting-their-teeth' on their network in the hopes of developing an employee who CAN and is WILLING to grow with them. Many smaller companies do not have the payroll to afford an IT staff person, but maybe they are between the 'let's hire our own person' vs. 'contract workers are a better value' phase?

I'd suggest you review this thread (and in particular my post)
http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/72580-so-many-youngers-do-well-i-t.html#post587800

You can name your price to any one...all you have to do is PROVE it.

Put yourself in the role of a business owner...where will you come up with the money when some hot-shot applies and tells you you are low-balling the market place? And that question applies for any position not merely an IT role. Where do you get all the income to pay for support staff positions that do not generate money but only can minimize expenses?

And pay rates (if you would review the forum you will see there have been many, many threads on pay over the years) vary greatly depending on the market, the company, and the candidate they seek.

jasong318

I wish I could find the ad again, but there was a posting requesting a "Network Administrator, AS400 Admin, RPG Programmer, with experience in Android programming" and the pay was ~$30,000... Some companies just don't get it, hence "$8 pay" or requests for "SysAdmins with Toyota transmission rebuild experience" type postings. Stay far, far away from these places.

NinjaBoy

Unfortunately it's a case of supply and demand.

Just open up any news paper/news site and there's news about another organisation making people redundant, one of the latest ones being HP.

More people out of work, more people looking for work. Organisations can pay less and get more. I can honestly say that in our area, IT job salaries have fallen up to 25%.

This is the result of the recession, it'll pick up, but to be honest not for a good few years...

MrBishop

I"m sorry by those job cuts have nothing to do with company offering minimum wage for any job these days. I mean, you can just about go anywhere an make $10/hr or more.

healthyboy

at least they get paid,

some of us volunteered and worked for free to start in i.t

Qord

That is pretty low, especially considering the locale. Makes me think they are trying to pull in a high school-er.

MrBishop wrote: »

I"m sorry by those job cuts have nothing to do with company offering minimum wage for any job these days.

I think that has a lot to do with it. With so many people looking for jobs, employers in general have realized they can get away with lowering pay rates because they will still attract people interested in the jobs. This isn't happening just in IT though, it's in just about anything that's not unionized.

Iristheangel

Plantwiz is completely correct about a company not being necessarily locked in a set price and after proving yourself, you can always renegotiate or take that experience to a higher paying job.
$8/hr is horrible if you have years of experience and a family to feed but if you're fresh out of high school and want to skip a strict help desk role, this would be a perfect job to do for a year to build experience. This job post has the perfect key words of "Willing to train" and "looking for someone that wants to learn the industry and build his or her career." For all the people that constantly post about not being able to get their foot in the door or asking how they're expecting to gain experience if all the jobs out there require experience, there are jobs like this. To all the newbies out there, let me sum it up for you: Your first 1-2 years of professional experience should not be about the money. If you accept this and look for a job based on what's going to give you the best experience and training, you'll potentially skip a lot of painful steps.

Edit: Literally two minutes after I posted this, someone starts this thread http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/77827-how-enter-field-no-expierence.html

jmritenour

I'm kind of torn on this one. I'm guessing this is probably aimed at high school/college kids as a summer job sort of thing. I mean, it IS part time, after all.

On the other hand, that's burger flipping wage. I'm sure it beats actually flipping burgers, however.

demonfurbie

it also has alot to do with location

here in the south those jobs are grabbed up instantly, how ever rent for a 2 bed room apt is 300

N2IT

For new graduates the pay can be pretty low. I've heard some of my former teammates mentioning bringing on college grads for 9.75 an hour. They are completely new and have no idea what's going on so that is why. But still 9.75!?!?!

kgb

demonfurbie wrote: »

it also has alot to do with location

here in the south those jobs are grabbed up instantly, how ever rent for a 2 bed room apt is 300

Location is the key factor in my opinion when discussing wages. If the starting houses cost $400k,and your salary is $80k you can't say you're better off than they guy that makes $30k, but that same house goes for $80k.

breannaall

Aren't all market's rough at this point?

drkat

Plantwiz wrote: »

The market is not 'bad'.

YOU need to prove your worth. Simply because an ad states the pay range, does not mean the company is locked into that range if the right type of candidate comes along. It may also be the company in question merely wants someone who is green...is willing to bear the burden of the green person 'cutting-their-teeth' on their network in the hopes of developing an employee who CAN and is WILLING to grow with them. Many smaller companies do not have the payroll to afford an IT staff person, but maybe they are between the 'let's hire our own person' vs. 'contract workers are a better value' phase?

I'd suggest you review this thread (and in particular my post)
http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/72580-so-many-youngers-do-well-i-t.html#post587800

You can name your price to any one...all you have to do is PROVE it.

Put yourself in the role of a business owner...where will you come up with the money when some hot-shot applies and tells you you are low-balling the market place? And that question applies for any position not merely an IT role. Where do you get all the income to pay for support staff positions that do not generate money but only can minimize expenses?

And pay rates (if you would review the forum you will see there have been many, many threads on pay over the years) vary greatly depending on the market, the company, and the candidate they seek.

I suppose?? I wasn't looking for me - I haven't made that wage in 10 years! - However for the "requirements" of the position I would say that's a bit low for my area. The average help desk job here is advertised at 14.00/hr which isn't bad for entry level. However they aren't asking for grocery list of skills. Anyone offering $8/hr is just low balling everyone - someone can apply at McDonalds and make $8.50

tpatt100

IT is better than a lot of fields right now. Don't get to focused on anecdotal evidence of "I can't find a job" or "I got a job so you can to". Take a realistic view of the economy right now and understand that just asking and researching means you are probably doing more than most people who are starting out.

People are not retiring either out of fear of their investments not lasting or their investments were poorly managed and they don't have enough. Or health care costs means they are somewhere above Medicaid but cannot afford private insurance.

What that means is currently according to job reports is that 1 out of 8 young people are out of work. College grads are not much better off. The older generation are not moving on so the middle is not moving up and the entry positions are not opening or are consolidating.

Companies are reducing or holding off hiring because consumer demand is kind of "meh" at the moment.

Location is another issue, plus there are not enough jobs for everybody anyways and looking outside of IT which is to provide support, if the company you want to support is seeing reduced demand for goods, then IT might be reduced or outsourced. Where I work our IT department is 25 percent of what it used to be years ago from what I was told. Lots of empty cubicles.

What really sucks is the economy is not even producing enough jobs to support population growth. I read in the jobs report that the country needs to produce 125,000 jobs a month to support population growth and currently doesn't produce that much, so you we are already working at a negative, you have millions unemployed along with the economy not producing enough jobs to support population growth.

So like what I heard on Dave Ramsey a few months ago something along the lines of "the economy is not like before where you can just show up and get a job". Its harder but not impossible. So just take a realistic, honest approach.

Iristheangel

The only requirements I saw were "basic Linux/Unix skills" and "willingness to learn." Sure, some entry-level person can start out in a help desk job making $14/hr for a year, then move into a desktop support role at $18/hr for another year and *maybe* at that point they can touch a server or switch (if they are lucky), then get a jr. network admin position at $20/hr where they will do light server/network maintenance for another year or two before they (finally) move into a real role.

Or they could potentially skip much of that by taking this job for a year or two and pick up a lot of hands-on experience working with servers and network equipment. Sometimes these low-ball entry-level jobs are a godsend. That's why I say your first 1-2 years in IT shouldn't be about the best entry-level pay. If this job was around when I started working in IT, I would have jumped on it for the experience and just worked a second job to pay the bills.

tpatt100

I was rejected by Gateway Country (lol) and some local computer shops back in the day. I would have taken ANYTHING that was I.T. related just to get out of working in a home improvement store selling power tools. I just got lucky a college friend referred me to my first IT job.

kurosaki00

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And, actually 8 bucks for someone that knows linux, maybe is a linux freak, works with it but doesnt have actually Job experience, sounds good.

Plantwiz

See, I call foul on the 'I can't find a job' or the 'market is bad' or 'old people are not leaving the workplace' cliches.

Folks didn't come to what is now known as "America" to 'get' a job. They came to make a life. In that quest, they took care of their needs and some started businesses and were able to hire folks on, some people worked on their own and sold their furs or wares to get by, and some simply capitalized on the good fortune of others and really made a name for themselves (as well as defined some of the logging, fur trading, quaries and farm industries (agriculture)).

I will use an example a little closer to the heart for the younger folks here...Mark Zuckerberg. I am not a fan of fb. I don't use it, nor do I think I ever will. However, my point is, he didn't sit around and wait for a job. He created a company.

Bill Gates - didn't wait for a job, he created what he wanted.
Steve Jobs - ditto.
Dave Ramsey
Howard Stern
etc...

I can list more, but I would hope the point is made. These guys faced people telling they couldn't do things or held jobs that were not 'in their field'. They worked. They took chances. The succeded when others told them they would fail. They made their own way in the world and they all ended up hiring on others...but they started on their own and now all are millionaires or better!

An ad for an $8 p/h job shouldn't make anyone upset, angry or frustrated with the world. Apply and counter the offer with your experience. There is nothing that says the company is locked in at ONLY paying $8. Likewise, and Iristheangel pointed it out...this is one of those 'get your foot in the door' opportunities.

Whenever you 'think' you are worth 'x' figure out what you do in your day. How much you save or make the company by the work you do. Consider how easy you are to get along with and see if it holds water. Wages can be negotiated, but I can promise I would never pay someone more then what they bring into the company or save my company...no one makes money when a company has more expenses then revenues.

The best way to get paid for what you are worth, is to work for yourself and hire a support team who can do the things you don't do well better.

techdudehere

8$/hr won't even cover your benefits. There are lots of people who think if they take an IT job and get experience then they will make money later on. The problem with this thinking is there are a bunch of other people trying the same thing. If you're skills are such that your only option is 8$/hr, chances are you'll have a difficult time working out of that situation and it may take many years to do it. You only have so many working years and to spend much time at that reduced salary it might be difficult to ever recover from. However, it's certainly not as damaging as people who go 50+k in debt for a BS. As someone else pointed out, as a summer job for someone in school it is not the worst option. They probably won't make enough $ to effect their grants. I have a feeling that the company's intention is to have some poor soul stay at that rate over an extended period, though, under the guise that they are providing training. Whatever the case, small organizations tend to have poor pay and few benefits and once the resume building is done, it's important to move up quickly before you become a financial disaster case.

Darthn3ss

I'd take that job in a hearbeat if i were still living with my parents.

Iristheangel

techdudehere wrote: »

There are lots of people who think if they take an IT job and get experience then they will make money later on. The problem with this thinking is there are a bunch of other people trying the same thing.

I disagree. I think it's actually quite rare that it initially occurs to someone to start small, gain experience, and build from there. I see too many people that try to run before they can walk. How many posts do we see daily on here where people are asking why they can't get a network engineer job with 0 experience and a CCNA? The first thing everyone tells them is to go get experience and put in their time at the help desk. Instead of adjusting their expectations, a lot of people just try to tack on a CCNP or braindump some other exam thinking that'll land them the golden ticket. Those are usually the people that end up settling for a low tech role that they can never get out of because they didn't have the long term endurance for a successful IT career.

$8/hr for a job that's part time, willing to teach you, and giving you some professional hands on experience with servers, site building, and Linux is WAY better than working at a help desk with limited access to technology and limited learning potential. So a part time job won't pay your benefits or bills? So what? If you want to seize the opportunity to learn and that's the only IT job you can get in your area, you take it and you get a second job to pay the bills. It sure would beat crying about how "the job market is so poor" and how "no one will hire you without experience" (No offense, OP. I don't know your situation. I'm just generalizing about some of the other posts I've seen on here). There are a lot of brilliant people on this forum who have no motivation and will never succeed and there are a lot of average people here who will crawl through glass to get further.

Plantwiz, I always love it when you post. You're completely right. The whole "job market is bad/can't find a job" cliche is a cop out. I think 90% of the people saying those things don't set realistic expectations or aren't seeing the opportunities in front of them. If it's not X pay and X title, then they're too good for it even though they have zilch experience. If you want to succeed, you learn from others, you plan out your goals, make your career choices based on them, and take risks on the opportunities in front of you.

ChooseLife

"I have enough money for the rest of my life, as long as I don't buy anything"

$8/hr for any IT job is a serious low-balling. That's on one hand.

On the other hand Iristheangel makes a good point:

Iristheangel wrote: »

...skip much of that by taking this job for a year or two and pick up a lot of hands-on experience working with servers and network equipment. Sometimes these low-ball entry-level jobs are a godsend.

This is the route I took and never regretted. The "godsend" was tough (pay-wise), but paid off in a royal way.

tpatt100

I will use an example a little closer to the heart for the younger folks here...Mark Zuckerberg. I am not a fan of fb. I don't use it, nor do I think I ever will. However, my point is, he didn't sit around and wait for a job. He created a company.

Bill Gates - didn't wait for a job, he created what he wanted.
Steve Jobs - ditto.
Dave Ramsey
Howard Stern
etc...

There is nothing wrong with reading about those people but if you read up on them, you usually find a common trait. They are usualy part of networks that make opportunities available to them that are not available to the common public. Nothing wrong in seeking inspiration from them but I would suggest people look at estabishing their own networks and find a way to access the networks not accessible to the masses.

I guess I am more a realist and look at the jobs reports and see the math is not looking good and how the ripple effect the economy has on opportunities and understand that things are harder.

If you can find another Bill Gates whose mother was on the board of directors of United Way who got him introduced to the chairman of IBM , or be a Mark Z and have friends that have millions of dollars and multimillionaire parents who can give you seed money great. I take from those examples the importance of networking but I prefer to seek out role models that have to network the hard way.

Plantwiz

Tpatt100,

I don't see the point you are drawing here? Because any one of us (here for example) has the abilty to met anyone via networking who can 'help' us along in our careers.

One point I always stress to my circle of friends, particularly when a few lost their 'career' job, was that no matter which job you take in the short-term, you never know who you'll meet during that process. So you take a job with Hobby Lobby, or Lowe's or McDonald's or stocking soda pop for Coke, in the beginning, one's pride may be hurt..."I shouldn't be doing this job" or "this is NOT what I went to school for, doesn't the world know I use to be 'x'?". However, if that person carries this attitude onto the work floor with the general public, the public will see that person as bitter and resentful. However, within the general public, it includes everyday folks who just get by as well as mulit-millionaires with connections. This is where the "Do undo others" kicks in. Work your butt off at what seems like a 'job beneth your skill' and met someone who can slingshot you back into where you belong.

You may be surprised at how many people look at workers in an establishment and think, "what would it take for me to get that guy to work for me? He has a great personality and is perfect with customers...I want that guy on my team!" Or since you think I only listed people who had the means to make it big (and I don't believe that for a second...the folks I listed took their lumps), Check out Scott Rigsby. He had a lot of people pulling for him, but it took him years to find his calling. I met him a couple weeks back and had the pleasure of speaking with him for a good while...he certain didn't have it easy and he is doing something now that he never imagined. The same company that fired him for being lousy at what he did, re-hired him at a different position because they saw he had some gifts they weren't using, but in his role at the company he held, he didn't fit...so they found a way to make him fit.

In life, it isn't always about what you know, it is WHO you know, but you don't get to meet people by turning down every opportunity that doesn't 'sound' good.

(I need to run, so this is very quickly typed out).

tpatt100

@Plantwiz

Not sure what my point is lol, I have been spending a lot of time trying to understand economics and reading a lot of Wall Street Journal and listening to lectures here:

Open Yale Courses | Capitalism: Success, Crisis, and Reform

Pretty interesting stuff. I guess I am more focused on the higher level state of the world and understanding how it impacts the "rest of us".

drkat

@iristheangel - no offense taken. I'm not looking for a job nor am I entry level and I sure as hell dont make $8/hr - what i was getting at with this post is how a company can expect to pay an IT person $8/hr even with NO experience? I'm not saying it's not a good idea to gain the experience doing this for a year and then moving on to something better - however, it comes down to self-respect. You sure as hell wont feel respected making $8/hr - you honestly can make more on the helpdesk even if you are exposed to "limited" technology. I dont honestly think a company offering $8/hr to "teach someone" has any staff on hand that are actually good at anything. The ad is condescending and these are the norm here in Rochester; IT market is saturated since kodak / xerox let everyone go. We have Earthlink Business Corp HQ here as well as Windstream and Citizens Communications (Frontier Telephone) but for the most part all the IT jobs are either low paying or taken by someone else. I've been lucky to not have to work for such wages in IT - I dont think people should have to.

My post was more about the the employers ad and the target audience than bitching about the market and how I cant find a job.. I'm gainfully employed, and honestly wouldnt be on here complaining if I couldnt find a job if I was unemployed because I'd be out looking for a job.

Beside, online posts are only 20% of the job search, we must include networking, cold calling, and the old pounding of the pavement to get your resume out there. I remember so many times taking hard copy resumes to business's out of the phone book to drop off in-person and asking to talk to the IT Manager directly (I like to be forward and get it done) --

Plantwiz

Well,

our world is what we make it. Those who sit around and complain there isn't anything for them are in a state of denile. They have the ability to make a difference in their own world, or be a part of a personal destructive cycle if they see it that way.

Life is not always easy.
Business is not something for someone else to fix.
If you want it, go out and make it. If you cannot make it, learn how or network with folks who can.

This thread started out as a rant and it turns out (by the OP own admission) that they really didn't care because they have a better job, instead they were complaining about a job someone else may take. Who cares? IF NO ONE applies for the job posting. The company offering the position will have the reality check of 'oh, maybe we cannot afford this person inhouse, so we should only contract when needed'. Or, they may see that they infact have a plethora of applicants who are interested in the job.

What is disappointing is that time after time folks will post "there is no work", but the reality is, there is work. Sometimes one needs to invent the solution to a problem others don't realize exists.

We all have the ability within ourselves to make the world as we think it to be. If we see the negative, that's all we will talk about and find 'facts' that support that theory. If we see the positive, we'll talk about the positive and find facts that support the good that exists.

Being that you are a Dave Ramsey fan, I'm surprised to hear (at least from what I've read in this thread because previously I didn't take your posts in this manner) that you don't follow the man makes himself approach. In the case of taking a job that is less than ideal, one wouldn't keep that job forever, but would take advantage of the opportunity it presents and where it may springboard.

So without derailing the thread further, the OP thought an $8p/h job was ridiculous. If no one applies, the market will take care of that position. If some apply, they gain a foothold into IT. Complaining about a wage without knowing the facts is basically pointless. The job maybe intended for a high school/college aged student who wants some experience and money. It may be for someone who lives in a low cost area. None of this is made clear. However, to jump to the conclusion that the pay is ridiculous and say that the market is bad is simply in poor judgement. To some, this may be the best thing to get started. I don't see the point of starting a thread to complain about something that may actually work for someone. It may not be the OP's cup-of-tea, so don't apply.

And if this were the correct forum, we could further discuss pricing and destroying the market, however this forum is for IT training and certification so we'll leave that for another place.

Tackle

Wow. Think of it this way...

People that don't have experience and cannot find a job come here to ask what to do or how to start in the industry. Multiple people will reply with "volunteer, even with no pay it's something to get started". Well heck, $8 an hour is much better than FREE volunteer work, and this has potentional for full time. Who knows, maybe in 3-6 months they will add a few more bucks an hour.

Iristheangel

drkat: My area is the exact opposite. We have a TON of jobs but they all want experience. My experience in IT has been a little different. When I was first starting in IT, I got EXTREMELY lucky. I showed up at a interview looking for a customer service non-IT position but after an in-depth interview with the owner of the company, I was hired on in his IT department. Without certifications, experience, or any formal education past high school. He had asked me what my passion was in the interview and I said that I really wanted to go to school for IT so he gave me a shot to do what I really wanted to do. I was only making $12/hr which is the rough equivalent of $8/hr in Rochester, NY with no benefits. In order to make ends meet, I worked a full-time graveyard security guard job and just studied my arse off to get some certifications. Since I was paying for everything out of pocket, wasn't talking to my family at that point, and didn't have a spouse to help out with the bills, I was living EXTREMELY frugally. I was lucky enough not to go into debt and still maintain some small little savings. Those were some bad times but I kept my head in the books. After two years of that job, I moved into another IT position which doubled my salary and gave me better benefits. I made it a point to chase after the CSO and the head of the networking department to make myself stand out and get additional experience outside of my job description. I also started doing contracting gigs on the side for extra savings and experience.

It's now been 5 years, 1 undergrad degree, 4 different IT roles, and about 15 certifications since I started working in IT and I've pretty much my increased my salary by 5 times. Even with all the work I've done, I know that I'm where I'm at now because of a mix of pure luck, motivation, and that entry level job. Things may have turned out differently if I wasn't lucky enough to have walked into that interview in the beginning and the owner decided to give me a chance to do something other than customer service. If I hadn't have been lucky enough to get that job, I would have probably taken a crappier paying job like the one you posted just to get my foot in the door or have to do the help desk to desktop support track and spend several more years to get to where I am now. My whole point is that almost all of us start small and we have to start somewhere, but the opportunities and sacrifices we chose in the beginning can dictate where we go and how fast we go later.