The real CCNA vs. MCITP thread

So, I read (some of) the previous threads, here and elsewhere, about ccna/ vs mcitp as a career booster/ knowledge jump point. Well, i am in a position where I am a sys admin in a company where IT is IT, you work networks, systems, voice, virtualization, everything. My interests are in security and sysadmin/network admin. Security is years away according to conventional standards, so i am focusing on the other two. interested in both, but where to go? I looked on monster, 600+ jobs for CCNA network engineer, admin, ect positions. As for MCITP Sysadmin... 62. Now it makes sense that the field is saturated with ITP's at this point, though I would have guessed the same with networking. (that number went up to 300+ when i removed the sysadmin keyword)

So whats the deal, will network admins always be needed, and sys admin is going the way of the dodo bird? What would you do and why?

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networker050184

Basically what it comes down to (just like all the other threads on this topic) is what do you want to do? If you like both do both! Just keep in mind that the higher up the ladder you get the less you are going to find generalist jobs like you have now. The more highly technical positions tend to be more specialized on a certain aspect of technology. You can't be an expert at everything in other words.

sthomas

I agree with everything networker said but on a quick side note if you do a search for MCSE you will get about 650 hits on monster. The point is a lot of employers still don't know what MCITP is and since Microsoft added to the confusion by changing there certification naming convention that makes things more confusing for people. If you like networking go for CCNA and if you want to be a Windows Sys admin then employers generally like to see someone with a Microsoft certification. Having both CCNA and a Microsoft cert is the best choice.

SephStorm

thanks for the input, its hard for me, being in a job that... has significant drawbacks. And wanting to progress technically. When building a career, there are so many options, so many things to consider that have impacts on my life. it sounds simple to just choose, but for me at least, it seems more difficult. maybe hearing some experiences from network admins vice sys admins would help.

Slowhand

Since the CCNA is still an entry-level networking cert, I say go for that and then make up your mind about heading into the MCSA/MCITP path. If you want to be a sysadmin that isn't obsolete, you will need both server and networking skills, (the only ones going the way of the dodo are the button-pushers that whimper at the sight of a command-line interface and can't read slash-notation on IP addresses.) If you find that you enjoy the networking aspects, then specialize in that area and start looking at something like the CCNP.

gdeusthewhizkid

hey that's what i did. I decided to take the network design and mgmt concentration at WGU so i could get my MCITP ea from them and do the ccent/ccna on my own. I think it's a great idea but the ccent is no joke though..

onesaint

There is decent demand in both disciplines. Maybe try loooking up systems engineer vs. Network engineer.

Networking consists of learning rules and understanding theory. Then implementing your knowledge. It gets very deep, but the technologies don't change often (think IPv6 implementation, over the last decade). Systems work changes much faster and has many more areas of study (as you know). With all those areas of study Systems work doesn't die off, it just changes. A lot. So, the main question (at least for me) with Networking vs. Systems, is do you like change? If you do, go Systems. If you don't go Networking.

I'm a JOAT as well and have decided to move towards Systems encompassing virtualization, storage, Linux, and networking. I figure those 4 areas will make me a pretty decent candidate for whatever comes up (e.g,. cloud, web, etc.).

psenior

CCNA vs. MCITP: My 2 cents:
I was laid off from my job in December 2011. I was eligible for some Obama money for career training. I narrowed it down to 2 options: get my CCNA or get my MCITP:EA. The CCNA class was 6 weeks, MCITP:EA, 20 weeks. There was another thread on this forum where numerous people stated CCNA was more valuable. I am biased against Microsoft in general, and wanted to try and break into the networking field, so I went and got my CCNA. I’m glad I did, because I learned a ton, which has helped me greatly as I pursue other certifications.
However, I sit here, 7 months later, still unemployed. And I am 100% certain that I would have been hired at least twice if I had my MCITP certification. Now, perhaps there are other reasons for my continued unemployment, but at one of the jobs I didn’t get I was flat out told by my interviewer, a guy that is a VMWare trainer and has more high level certs than anyone I’ve met, that I should get Microsoft certified just because it would allow me to get a job anywhere. I didn’t believe it then, but I do now.
I have discovered that just a CCNA isn’t enough to break into networking. Most of the jobs ask for experience with VoIP, firewalls, BGP, MPLS, etc. All topics not covered in-depth by CCNA. I feel like I need to get my CCNA:Voice, CCNA:Security, etc. just to meet these requirements.
I am currently going to WGU for my B.S. in IT, and am seriously considering changing my major to IT Networking just so I can get my MCITP:SA through them.
A good litmus test for you to conduct is go to indeed.com and search for job openings in your part of the world. Do one on “CCNA” and one on “MCITP” or “MCSE” and see which one has the most hits. Granted, there will be some overlap, but the numbers don’t lie.

kremit

Slowhand wrote: »

If you find that you enjoy the networking aspects, then specialize in that area and start looking at something like the CCNP.

That is exactly why im dragging on my CCNA, its boring. MCITP life for me. To the OP, your sig shows IT Specialist, US Army, which means you can get points towards promotion with certs. I'm sure you knew that just bringing it up. :P

NetworkVeteran

My interests are in security and sysadmin/network admin. Security is years away according to conventional standards, so i am focusing on the other two. interested in both, but where to go?

Study for the security certifications that are within reach now. Life's short! Do what you enjoy. People generally tend to perform their best when they're doing what they love.

gdeusthewhizkid

psenior I think makes a great point...

SephStorm

Good points all around. the reasons i cant focus on security are two fold, one, i cant work in security at my job unless i switch my mos, which requires higher test scores... (guess doing it doesnt matter if the score says you dont have the capacity...)

two, I feel like I am missing a big part of understanding security, and i think part of it is being isolated with my it experiences, you are limited to what is going on at your unit, one unit might give me reports on attacks, and i can see what happened, how it was stopped, ect, then another unit is all patching, no information, another has you doing nothing IT related. I need a stable position where I know what my job is, and what is expected.

As far as the certs go, a lot of good points. Id really like to get into a college program maybe with a networking emphasis, and some programming courses. my job again gets in the way. so its certs for now, and im leaning CCNA. I really wish I was home where I could devote say a month to training, with my lab and everything. I know I can use Packet Tracer, but yeah...

sigh. But, no more excuses, im going to go for it.

kohr-ah

SephStorm wrote: »

So whats the deal, will network admins always be needed, and sys admin is going the way of the dodo bird? What would you do and why?

Ok this is my first post here but I have read this forum for a long time.

Do both. A lot of people say specialize specialize specialize and they are right. You should. Later on. While I don't have my MCITP let me explain why I recommend this.

Getting your foot in the door with MS certs is easier unless you know someone in the networking field. It gives you a chance to get in the door then show them what you know. My company, for example, is a 70%% Cisco based company and provides just about any Cisco service and product you can imagine. But we do have 25% that is MS side which we provide service as well and about 5% support services (help desk, etc). I started with them in the 5% category by fixing printers at a site they assigned me to and helping with PCs running Windows XP at the time and kept certifying as I went along (Had my A+, Net+, CCNA, and MCP at the time).

I showed them I knew what I was doing and now I was promoted to a site where 85% of my work is still cisco but at this site is also MS Servers, and about 1800 residents with PCs and Macs. Most my work I do is networking with Cisco switches, routers, firewalls, and now even call manager servers and network admission control units but because I know MS Servers as well I got assigned here. I am one of the youngest engineers in my company to be by myself at a job site and not part of a team doing upgrades under a project manager. I am at this site representing my company with no other workers from my company here. The CCNA helps me trouble shoot issues in regards to many factors on the Server side and PC side as well because I know basic cisco networking and how it works.

Then what I recommend for you from there is then decide what to specialize in. My case I start next week with my 640 test because I have been putting it off too long. After I get my MCITP I will continue with CCNP and later in life CCIE (after I have sufficient experience) as I know I want to be primarily Cisco. I am doing the MCITP to show I know it to keep my marketability up. But because knowing both and showing I know both it gives me a versatility where I can support more things allowing me to go mroe places. Even if you want to stick with MS the CCNA will still show that you have a greater understanding of networking and help you back it up.

Because of my CCNA the networking side of MS was made very much easier to understand as well when I read the books.

My 2 cents. Sorry if I rambled :P

psenior

I agree with the above poster who says do both certs. To the IT Army dude who started this thread, if you have some kind of top secret gov't clearance (I'm assuming you do), when you get out you will easily qualify for all kinds of high paying IT gov't contractor jobs that civilians like me can't get without sponsorship.

xbuzz

Nice post kohr-ah. I had initially planned on doing CCNP, but recently have been thinking to get MCSA 2008 first. Too many jobs seem to list both CCNA and MS certs as required or prefered. With the economy the way it is "i'm in europe". Employers want people doing as many jobs as they can. At higher levels, sure you need specialists, but I agree, just starting out in the industry, unless there's alot of noc or isp jobs hiring in your area, it's best to get some certs that will broaden your technology base. Some MS certs don't need recertifying, and alot of MCSA 08 is networking, which is easy for anyone with CCNA.

I'll be applying for networking roles, and it will be awesome to get one as entry level, but i'll also get my MCSA 08 and apply for hybrids. I'll probably end up getting CCNA Security and voice also. Seems every job these days requires you to know about vpns/firewalls and voip.

techiie

Ccna is a good cert to get your foot in the door. Many employers still respect that certification.

kohr-ah

xbuzz wrote: »

Nice post kohr-ah. I had initially planned on doing CCNP, but recently have been thinking to get MCSA 2008 first. Too many jobs seem to list both CCNA and MS certs as required or prefered. With the economy the way it is "i'm in europe". Employers want people doing as many jobs as they can. At higher levels, sure you need specialists, but I agree, just starting out in the industry, unless there's alot of noc or isp jobs hiring in your area, it's best to get some certs that will broaden your technology base. Some MS certs don't need recertifying, and alot of MCSA 08 is networking, which is easy for anyone with CCNA.

I'll be applying for networking roles, and it will be awesome to get one as entry level, but i'll also get my MCSA 08 and apply for hybrids. I'll probably end up getting CCNA Security and voice also. Seems every job these days requires you to know about vpns/firewalls and voip.

Thank you

I try to help as much as I can for things.

Something I didn't think about until I had to use it at work would be a good example of how both are handy

The site I am at uses an old version of Cisco Call Manager v4.1(3) (If it isn't broke why upgrade it). New Cisco call managers run on linux which is great and fairly easy to maintain. This one does not. It runs on MS Server and the user accounts that tie to unity are used to AD DS account, DHCP, etc and gets annoying when an MS feature breaks :P I learned when you get an outage call at about 12am for some reason you can never find the guy that you need to help you get it back up and many times are on your own.

nel

Its like chalk and cheese. Two different things.

If you are looking to step up the ladder from helpdesk / support then i would recommend both as a starting point. If you have a particular interest in a specialization then look at that. Each to their own but networking always got my vote.

Good luck.

Devilry

Get both CCNA and MCSA/MCSE/MCITP. After you get a combo, you should then specialize further in one of the paths. This is just my opinion, but it can't hurt for sure. You at least know the basic knowledge at that point for the other supporting technologies.

ehnde

Neither discipline is going away. You said you like both sys admin and network admin, so do both

HLRS

I think CCNA is way more difficult than MCITP EA

Slowhand

Any particular reason why that is, HLRS? I know a lot of people are more familiar with Windows technologies, for example, but I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts are on it.

networker050184

HLRS wrote: »

I think CCNA is way more difficult than MCITP EA

I think that depends entirely on the person. CCNA would be pretty easy for me but I'd fail miserably on any MS exam.

dave330i

HLRS wrote: »

I think CCNA is way more difficult than MCITP EA

Interesting. I found CCNA easy, while gave up on MCITP.

it_consultant

networker050184 wrote: »

I think that depends entirely on the person. CCNA would be pretty easy for me but I'd fail miserably on any MS exam.

You would probably be OK. However, MS exams have a way of surprising you.

kohr-ah

I found MS Exams a challenge but I have to say for exams I found CCNA more challenging and only for 1 reason. MS Exams you atleast have a back button/review capability. Cisco is it go forward and never look back.

instant000

SephStorm wrote: »

So, I read (some of) the previous threads, here and elsewhere, about ccna/ vs mcitp as a career booster/ knowledge jump point. Well, i am in a position where I am a sys admin in a company where IT is IT, you work networks, systems, voice, virtualization, everything. My interests are in security and sysadmin/network admin. Security is years away according to conventional standards,

I fail to understand how you're in the U.S. Army, and saying that security is years away. When I went through 25B AIT (You don't reveal your MOS), my very first class was on the Orange book. (Google it if you're not familiar with it.)
According to what I was taught from my very first AIT class, security is "paramount".

Soldier, what's your first general order?
"I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved."

When you do any field exercise what's the first two things you ALWAYS do?
1. Secure the site
2. Set up comms.

Not sure how it could have changed by that much between then and now. What is the "security" MOS that you refer to? Is it some new MOS they came out with, that wasn't around when I went through?

so i am focusing on the other two. interested in both, but where to go? I looked on monster, 600+ jobs for CCNA network engineer, admin, ect positions. As for MCITP Sysadmin... 62.

As alluded to earlier, Microsoft keeps changing their naming conventions for thier certs. It was MCSE/MCSA, then they went the MCITP route, and now things are going full circle, as they're going back to the MCSE. I stayed where I was, and it came back to me, LOL. So, if you're searching for Microsoft jobs, use the terms MCP,MCSA,MCSE,MCITP.

So whats the deal, will network admins always be needed, and sys admin is going the way of the dodo bird? What would you do and why?

I feel that both are needed, especially starting out. If the organization is smaller, then obviously, you need someone who can do both. In larger organizations, you get an opportunity to specialize. There is going to be more opportunity to do systems earlier on, because most people start at the help desk level, which naturally projects to sys admin. A lot of people don't get much exposure to the network side, just by course of work.

Also, Linux is an operating system, too, you know? I would recommend that you get well versed with an operating system, so you can understand how those things work. Knowing how the network works, and knowing how the end stations work can lead to your being a much more effective troubleshooter.

Once you get farther along, then you can specialize.

Since you're at WGU now, then work on your certs while you're in school.... wait, you already said you were doing that.

To be honest, I'll tell you what I told my nephew yesterday: Don't take 15 years to get your bachelor's, and get some experience working or volunteering while you're in school and you'll be far ahead of where I am when you reach my age. ... I think you've got the work experience covered

Hooah!

SephStorm

Unfortunately times have changed, I am referring to information security, physical security is usually relegated to MPs/FP. 25B AIT's contribution to computer security is one security+ class that has a high first time failure rate, used to use **** (they are using another test engine after I complained, dont know what it is now), and if you score 90 or better on the school exam, you can take the industry exam. That and an "ASA class" that doesnt appear to be required for graduation, my class never got to it.

The security mos' that I was refering to is the newly revealed (Army) 35Q Cryptologic Network Warfare MOS. the official description doesnt do it justice. Other than that is the Warrant MOS 255S (Information Protection Technician/Cyberspace defense technician), which requires you to be a CWO3 before one can apply. Future plans for enlisted cyber defense mos are years away.

As for WGU, lol, tht didnt work out that well, flaked out when it came time to take the math assessment.. That and some work stuff. Anyway, i'm trying to get in study for CCNA, biggest hitch is internet access in my area, and time to sit down for 30min at a time to watch the videos. off to do that now.