How to get anywhere here?

jdchilders

delete.

networker050184

Sounds like its time to move on to greener pastures.

blargoe

I recently left a company that I loved working for primarily for opportunity and compensation. It's hard, but I think it's clear that it is past time for you to move on.

NetworkVeteran

jdchilders wrote: »

I moved to this company from my old company with no change in pay...well like 400 dollars a year difference, because I was honest and told them what i made previously.

That's rubbish. I was completely transparent during my last salary negotiations. Yes, I make $X. No, if you want me, you will pay at least $Y. I'm not greedy! I just have family to support.

so effectively 60k more than their previous position paid...why can't i just lie?)

I suspect his salary was based more on his abilities than his lying. If the company doubted he could perform at that level, they would be hiring a different person.

a job i had to take last second... I tried negotiating with the HR lady, but she was very insistent

If you had to take the job, you were in no position to negotiate. Six months later, you should be in a position to seek outside work and/or negotiate for higher pay.

Then I got a "promotion" finally to the Information Security team, doing stuff I love. I put "promotion" in quotes because while my offer letter said "congratulations on my promotion" below it said "salary will remain the same"...Funny, but okay.

If you switched to "a position doing stuff you love", it sounds like a promotion.

Months later i'm still making the same with no change. Talked to my manager who loves me for the great work, and best I can get is, "this year they're thinking about NOT doing mid year reviews, so may have to wait til year end".... A guy on my team who is at the same level is right at 100k, and my age.

If you feel you're underpaid, appeal to the market, and that will be corrected.

Imagine you were a coffee-shop barista being paid $4/hour while all the others get $10/hour. You'd post your resume, say you're underpaid, and would be happy to work for even $7/hr! Other coffee shops would see you as a steal and snatch you up quickly.

I put in hard work, last three weeks i've worked 70, 65, 66 hours respectively.

Did they require you to work over sixty hrs? If not, stop. Doing unpaid work is silly. Use that extra time instead to invest in your skillset or enjoy your life.

xbuzz

I would make an appointment with HR again, and explain the situation. Ask why your co-workers are on more than double your pay. Be honest with them, and say while you love the job, you can't live on 40k anymore, and if this job won't supply it then you'll have to move on. My guess is they'll do the numbers and realise they'll have to pay alot more, to get someone new in with the same experience, then train them up, so they might budge.

Is infosec your calling? From what I hear it's pretty hard to get into infosec in the first place, so I think talking with HR and/or your manager (maybe ask that the meeting is with HR AND your manager, that way your manager can back you up), is a good idea before you jump ship. That or start applying for other infosec jobs while you are still working there, but if you're hurting for money, that might take awhile.

Iristheangel

@OP, definitely get your resume out there and as soon as you get some solid offers, take those offers to HR. Let them get in a bidding war over you. Tell them that there is absolutely no way you can stay unless they outbid the other company. If they want to keep you, they're going to offer you more money. If not, at least you'll be getting paid more elsewhere

Devilry

Don't let HR bully you in the future about salary. Typically the hiring manager will tell HR they want you, and give a max salary and HR tries to get a lot less. At my current position HR came back offering $500/year less than I made, I told them nicely to get lost and said I will not consider anything under 20k more of what I made. about 2 weeks later they called back and agreed. Stand your ground!

In your current position, time to move on! Or you can decide whether or not to find a new gig and then take the offer back to your current employer.

tpatt100

Some companies might have a hard time justifying a significant pay increase if your already doing the work for the salary you get now. I got a 25 percent pay increase at my first IT job but 25 percent increase of 30K is not a lot lol. I moved up but since I was a contractor moving was still not going to impact my pay scale much.

p.s. Security is in very high demand

dave330i

Update your resume and look for a new job. Don't bother talking to HR.

petedude

Iristheangel wrote: »

@OP, definitely get your resume out there and as soon as you get some solid offers, take those offers to HR. Let them get in a bidding war over you. Tell them that there is absolutely no way you can stay unless they outbid the other company. If they want to keep you, they're going to offer you more money. If not, at least you'll be getting paid more elsewhere

Wouldn't that about have the same effect as a counteroffer, though? That is, they'd keep you as long as they had to and might start looking for another body to fill that role?

xbuzz

Considering they had 95k to fill the position before, it's highly unlikely, in my opinion, that they'll want to find another person to fill the role, considering the OP is currently on way less than half that salary, is a good worker, and is fully trained in the role. HR hiring someone that is an unknown entity to them (and who would cost alot more than 40k) would be pretty stupid move on their part.

HR are well used to having to bid for employees, and an underpaid employee, or even a well paid employee looking for a raise won't hurt their feelings at all.

Iristheangel

petedude wrote: »

Wouldn't that about have the same effect as a counteroffer, though? That is, they'd keep you as long as they had to and might start looking for another body to fill that role?

I've successfully used offers from other potential employers to get my current employer to match it. The reality is that they are getting him for a "deal." They know he has the skillset, works hard, and can get paid less than market value. They can hire someone new but most likely have to pay more and new employee can be wildcards. It makes smarter fiscal sense to just pay him an extra 20K a year than have to have an empty role and turnover. Especially since they have no qualms paying other employees twice the salary he's making right now for the same role

Zartanasaurus

petedude wrote: »

Wouldn't that about have the same effect as a counteroffer, though? That is, they'd keep you as long as they had to and might start looking for another body to fill that role?

They've had countless opportunities to pay him what he's worth. If they're only willing to do that once he leaves, this doesn't sound like the type of place you'd want to stay at regardless.

xbuzz

Zartanasaurus wrote: »

They've had countless opportunities to pay him what he's worth. If they're only willing to do that once he leaves, this doesn't sound like the type of place you'd want to stay at regardless.

If I understand the OPs post, the only time he has gone to HR, was when he was accepted for the infosec position, and since then he has only talked to his manager who has given him a copy and paste reply. So he should definitely try HR again, now that he's situated in his position and HR knows he does a good job, it should be alot easier for him to get a raise.

MickQ

Brush off and update your resume/CV. Get it out and around the place. Get offers, see what the market is like and, if you want, tell your boss that you have those offers but that you're willing to stay if the company match the salary and benefits. Now that they know how valuable you are, you have more clout.

The best time to be looking for a job is when you already have one.

ptilsen

I truly can't empathize on the position you were in. You have a mouth to feed other than your own. However, outside of your desperation, the problem is ultimately in your salary expectations. We had a thread a few months ago about telling or not telling prospective employers current salaries. A lot of people I respect took a hard line, saying the one should basically refuse to provide the information. I disagree with that position, and see no problem in providing current salary information. What's more important is clearly providing salary expectations, and I think this is where you failed (even if you had good reasons). Let me provide an anecdote.

I recently changed positions (I start 07/23), and in dealing with HR and recruiters I was fairly specific about salary: $X - $X+10,000 a year, or $Y to $Y + 10 /hr, depending on benefits, hours, expectations, flexibility, on-call, length of contract (if applicable), etc. So there was a pretty big range there, but it left room for negotiating based on those very important details. My current (soon to be former) salary was roughly $12000/year less than $X, making it $22,000/year less than $X + $10K. The hourly figure, being for contracts/no benefits, was an even bigger gap. I came in asking for a massive raise even while providing my current salary, and this was not a problem. Almost no one blinked at the difference, and the couple who did were more than satisfied with my justification.

It is not hard to justify what you're worth if you're really worth it. If it's a problem, you've probably not evaluated yourself properly. Some employers can be difficult, and in this case you were too desperate to try to fight, I get that. But normally, asking for what you're realistically worth should not be a problem, even if it's $10K, $20K, $30K, or a correspondingly large percentage increase.

Now, providing your current salary does give them a baseline, and if you're giving a range like I did, they're definitely more likely to come in around $X than $X + $10,000. However, I still got offered $X + $5,000 + a chance for 10% of $X in bonus, and I even turned down a position that was $X + $15K (1.5 to 2-year contract, but still). The point is not that I have some amazing negotiating ability or anything like that. I researched and determined roughly what I thought I was worth, asked for it, interviewed well, and got what I was asking for. If I would have turned anyone down based on being low-balled, they likely would have come back with a higher number, or simply have not been the right positions for me.

In the short term, I do recommend you begin looking. I think your company is blatantly taking advantage of your situation, and even if you love every other aspect of your job, you don't want to work there in the long run. You really, really don't. Keep negotiating in the meantime because obviously the money itself is important, but I would start looking no matter what. And this time around, ask for what you're worth up front, even if it's twice what you make now.

antielvis

^^^. The first few sentences of the above post say it all

You are in charge of your career. You make demands on what you feel you are worth. If you don't they'll pay you what they think they can get away with. Approach HR, demonstrate your case (comparable jobs, etc) and wait. If nothing happens, leave.

paul78

@jdchilders - I was a bit surprised to see your posting. Partly because you indicated that you work at a Fortune 500 company - are you based in the US?

It's a bit disingenuous for your manager to say that "... they're thinking ...". In the large businesses that I've worked, it's management that calls the shots on promotions, raises, etc. It's not HR. In fact, most large companies have specific pay bands for specific job levels. Managers (especially line-managers) are usually expected to follow those guidelines. Pay bands are in place to allow a business to be competitive for talent and to reduce the attrition rate which can be a costly expense.

If the company is doing poorly, perhaps raises are frozen - I assume it's a public company so that information would be readily available to you.

Your description sounds like simply a bad manager and if so, perhaps it's time to move on. You mentioned that you like the company, perhaps an internal move may be a place to start.

Good luck...

ChooseLife

I wholeheartedly agree with these points:

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

If you feel you're underpaid, appeal to the market, and that will be corrected.

ptilsen wrote: »

It is not hard to justify what you're worth if you're really worth it. If it's a problem, you've probably not evaluated yourself properly.

One's salary is a market price, a point on a scale that the seller (employee) and the buyer (employer) find acceptable to enter into a contract. If you think you are underpaid, prove it by finding a buyer who is willing to pay the price you want. Also, remember that it is not one's real value that is being evaluated by a current or prospective employer, but the perceived value. This perceived value is formed by a number of things - person's public image, ability to communicate what skillset the person brings or may bring to the company, visibility at work, impact on business.

Some questions for you to ponder and perhaps take some actions upon:
Why is the management willing to pay $X to your peer and only $Y to you? Would they be willing to increase your pay if faced with a risk of losing you? Are you in the position to make them face this risk?

P.S. Btw, you are talking freely about salaries, HR, management... You do realize that it took 3 seconds to match your story to a real person working at a real company, right?

techdudehere

They were able to fill the position at a bargain rate and you got the experience you needed to land a real job. Leave now and it's win-win. I see no point in badgering your manager or HR any further. Even if you convince them to pay you what you're worth, you'll likely have ruffled some feathers. Interview now and you're coming from a position of strength, if they don't offer market rate or higher you already have a job! Make sure to look for more than just salary. Use linked in and similar to find former employees and see what you can find out about the company. Sometimes you don't want to work for a given employer regardless of salary. You certainly want to be careful of midsize companies with high turn over rates.

RouteThisWay

jdchilders wrote: »

If I left right now, they would pretty much be screwed. I'm the only one at what I do, and no one else on my team is capable (not saying they couldn't learn, just would be a definite gap of downtime).

You have been given great advice in this thread, not going to rehash it. Just wanted to touch on the line above.

Don't ever think with that might set of "if I left they will be screwed." They existed long before you were there, and will continue to once you leave. Since this is a Fortune 500 company, you leaving will barely register a blip on the radar. I promise.

Good luck man.