Preparing for Foreign Work

powerfool

Hey all,

I have mentioned this before in a few threads, but I am looking to eventually move to a foreign country in Europe (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, or the Netherlands in descending order of preference) for a few years for work and relative cheap vacationing. The big cost with vacationing overseas, whether that is in Europe or somewhere like Thailand is the travel expenses... I figure that if I am already over there, that makes it great for multiple extended weekends that are a relatively short ride away. I want to visit these places, and others, and learn more culturally and do some in-depth genealogy research on-site.

In any event, I am trying to prepare myself for the possibility, as I would like to begin this in a few years from now. Linguistically, I am a bit of geek, as I read about European languages (from a language evolution standpoint) and I studied French for six years between middle and high school. I have been learning German on my own for the past few years and I have also done comparisons between German, Dutch, and Norwegian. With that being said, I am probably better at listening to Spanish (just because I have been around more of it than anything else), followed by German.

Now, I figure there are two ways to get to work over there.

1) Government contracting: this is probably the path of least resistance as I would be working with other Americans and would not have to rely on a second language as much or worry about a work visa. I already do this, so I am already cleared.

2) Work with a recruiter and get a job the old fashioned way: I would have to be able to speak the language fluently, get a work visa, be competing against local talent and culture, and also have to contend with workforce culture (regulatory and such).

I have found several jobs specializing in areas I am proficient, so the jobs exist. The other factor is family. I would be taking my family with me. My eldest is starting high school this year, so she may be in college when we make the move. My middle child would be in high school by then, and my youngest would be close to middle school. If I do government contracting, I could more readily send my children to an American school over there so they wouldn't fall being do to language, but they would get quite a bit of exposure to foreign language and culture.

I am looking for options to take classes, because if I don't, I won't build a process for myself to self-study with all of the other things I have to do.

Has anyone else gone this route?

Raisin

You might have better luck going the government contracting route. Otherwise you're competing against canadites across the EU that don't need a visa before they can start working.

MickQ

Yep, probably best with the govt. route. You'd need good German at the very least, and a good CV with profile picture - different culture, very different.
Also, how good are the family at speaking Deutsche?

powerfool

MickQ wrote: »

Also, how good are the family at speaking Deutsche?

They don't. The dog knows more than they do... but that is because I trained him in German. EDIT: So, that's not true... they know those same words and a few more, but you get the idea. My brother-in-law left some genes in Germany when he was stationed there and my wife would love to meet her niece and my kids their cousin. So, there is a bit of motivation there. Plus, my mother-in-law would probably offer some motivation if she saw that this was likely to happen; she would have somewhere to stay if she visited, so she could see her granddaughter and do some of her own genealogic research.

I am actually having a hard time finding classes. My alma mater offers alums the opportunity to take any undergrad course for free as audit, so no credit, but German all of the German courses are offered 4 days a week, at 50 minutes per course. That would take around two hours of my time four days a week. If it we two days a week in the middle of the day, I might be able to swing it... if it were offered after 4pm, that would be even better. Another school offers it two afternoons per week, but it would be $1200 per class.

So, I stopped by a local German bakery that also sells videos and books in German and I bought some old Roman to read... see if I can pick up some new words more easily that way. The best way I have found, for English speakers, is to use soudex to associate words with common eptimology. For instance, Niemann means nobody, but it sounds like "no man" which is actually how the word is created.

We'll see how this goes. If it doesn't work out, maybe I try to find a local job with a German-owned company and try to get my foot in the door that way. My last employer was bought by a German company before I left and I used my meager skills to talk with the CIO about establishing our VPN connectivity for the accounting folks to upload their numbers in SAP.

sratakhin

You may have luck applying for a so called Blue Card - German 'Blue Card' to simplify immigration | Germany | DW.DE | 28.04.2012

Webmaster

powerfool wrote:

I would have to be able to speak the language fluently,

I pointed this out in another thread a while back, but in the Netherlands speaking Dutch is for many jobs in IT not a requirement or even desired. Large companies and European HQs here have English as their primary language because they employ people from many different countries (can't all expect them to learn Dutch while most know English already). Especially with one or more foreign languages in addition to English (German and French) it becomes a non-issue. And that goes for non-working hours too. The latter seems actually a downside in your case, because if you want to practice your foreign language skills the Netherlands is the last place you should be as everyone will traditionally (try to) switch to your own language.

wikipedia lol wrote:

Research states that about 86% of the Dutch population claims to be able to converse in English. According to some, the main reasons for the high degree of English speakers is the country's small size, dependency on international trade, and the use of subtitles for foreign languages on television rather than dubbing [like in many European countries].

I've said the latter (about the subtitles) many times, funny they even mention it on wikipedia now. Anyway, the Netherlands would probably be the least of a culture shock for you and your family language-wise but I think the jobs ops boil down to a few crowded cities (with overcrowded roads and schools for example), it's probably easier to find a nice place to live in Germany.

powerfool wrote:

and relative cheap vacationing

Another good reason to avoid the Netherlands, and if you plan to drive a lot throughout Europe I suggest buying your gas elsewhere.

powerfool wrote:

or worry about a work visa

I don't know a lot about visas in the Netherlands, Germany and neighboring countries, I think here only employers can request work-visas (for non-EU employees), but it would surprise me if that's more than a formality for Americans. I have no idea how willing employers actually are. Probably some treaty since WWII that makes it easier though. Apart from that Infosec is still very hot here, with your cert it should be easy enough to find an interesting job. I could send you a handful of (English) examples if your interested, just picks from some job sites I frequent.

No offense to anyone from Austria, it's a very beautiful country, but is there another reason than German being the language that you listed it as your second preference? It's quite a different scenery compared to (most of) Germany, Netherlands, and Belgium.

powerfool

A large degree of my choices is due to the geographic location of the countries and languages. I already have some experience both French and German. Plus, Austria is close to the region of Germany that I really want to visit (Bavaria). In regards to Dutch, it is rather similar to German (almost close enough to be considered a dialect), and I have also heard many stories that reinforce what you have stated (just to add, a buddy of mine who is the son of a Dutch immigrant and has many Dutch relatives that live locally here said that they don't even like speaking Dutch and despite it being their native language, they find it easier to speak English... of course, that is opinion and is circumstantial). During my stay, I would definitely go to the British Isles (I have been there before, for work trips) and the Basque region in Spain (my wife is descended from the Xabier royal family of the Kingdom of Navarre through her father) and maybe even walk the Camino, as a matter of sightseeing and genealogy. Then, I would definitely want to spend time in Bavaria (as my family is descended from there) and travel through the Netherlands and Belgium, as that is part of the migration path (as was England). I would also visit France and Italy, just because it would be great to do that in my lifetime, so doing so while in a good proximity would be a no-brainer. I wouldn't mind going to Norway, as both my wife and myself has some family from there (my maternal great-grandfather and her maternal great-grandmother).

That is really about it. See stuff, learn stuff, experience stuff... all the best as I possibly can. Going to Eastern Europe... maybe. It may be good to see some of the worse places that were ravaged by WWII and communism... it gives one a true appreciation for what some people have endured and a better outlook on one's own life.

My father died in a motorcycle accident when I was very young and his father died when I was a teenager, just after I started to get to know him. I have been on a mission to learn about my family's heritage lately. While I really identify with my German heritage, it seems odd because my family left Germany a very long time ago and was among the very first German families to come to America (they were recruited by the British crown to help colonize just after the start of the Jamestown settlement... the German aristocracy in Britain liked Germans... but the past century has caused them to hide their German heritage and go by the name of Windsor instead of Saxe-Coburg and Gothe, and more recently, Battenberg). Anyhow, all of that time in America has made quite the mutt out of me.

Anyhow, I don't want to bore anyone with this.... I just thought it gave a little background to my motivations.

As far as US government contracting goes, how does the pay fare compared to being INCONUS? I know it certainly won't pay as much as hazardous pay in combat zones, but do they try to compensate you a little better to perhaps make up for being away from a home that you may still be paying for in the US? Anything like that?

Raisin

You can typically expect to receive relocation expenses and cost of living adjustments on top of your normal salary. Some places will provide you with furnished housing and storage for the things you don't wish to take overseas.

Webmaster

powerfool wrote:

In regards to Dutch, it is rather similar to German (almost close enough to be considered a dialect).

They are similar because Dutch is a "West Germanic" 'language' - however, so is English. It's not that close to a dialect as it may seem though (we have quite a few of those within the Netherlands), knowing one does imo not help that much with the other besides the pronunciation of letters like the throat clearing "g". I can imagine that is different coming from English. To me it's kinda like Portugese/Spanish/Italian, knowing one will help recognize words of the others but that's about it. Most people here speak and understand some (spoken) German, but when it comes to written... It's considered one of the harder classes to take in school.

Thanks for sharing the background of your location choices, very interesting. I agree it would be a no-brainer to visit France and Italy. And don't forget Luxemburg, small but beautiful and definitely worth a visit/stop by itself (they speak French and German). If you're going to live in Bavaria you might as well take the relatively short drive or train to Prague for a few days, if you like old architecture it's really a must visit. If you want to visit Norway, you could drive there from Germany, crossing Denmark as well.

As an alternative to US government contracting I think a good angle would be to target major US companies that have a regional office/HQ in Germany (Cisco, Verizon, Google, etc), should be plenty in and around München and they surely have experience with work-visas.

powerfool

Webmaster wrote: »

As an alternative to US government contracting I think a good angle would be to target major US companies that have a regional office/HQ in Germany (Cisco, Verizon, Google, etc), should be plenty in and around München and they surely have experience with work-visas.

That is actually what I search through a few days ago. I found some listings from a large software vendor that had about 8 jobs in different German cities (including München). Thanks for your advice. I really want to make this work, now I just need to prepare. I suppose one positive would be to be extremely proficient in the technology (top 1%) in order to make up for the other differences, at least to a degree.

Webmaster

powerfool wrote: »

I suppose one positive would be to be extremely proficient in the technology (top 1%) in order to make up for the other differences

I think top1% is a tad extreme as you'll probably find less competition for certain IT jobs (for example those requiring CISSP) than in the States. Differs a lot per city of course as some are more focused on IT than others (several want to become "the IT center of Europe", might we worth doing some research on which in Germany), but there aren't that many candidates for the same job with your qualifications. And your additional languages are a plus by itself, weeding out some of the competition already. A downside of that could be that if they hire you based on that the job may include some traveling for work (probably not ideal with a family). "the other differences" aren't necessarily negatives you need to make up for either, like in international companies that already have a mix of employees and cultures.

I noticed you are working on another MCITP - something you might find interesting (and I honestly have no idea if that's still the case, it's been a decade) is that I never noticed an English install of Windows (server) in Germany. I worked remotely only on a handful of them, couple of different companies, but it was always a bit of an annoyance to find the right tool (I'll never forget the Benutzermanager). Might be a fun way to practice your German.

Also here's a site I ran into today that you might find helpful: Global Talent Barometer | The Network

powerfool

I think one route I am looking for is an online German course. I have searched many Opencourseware sites for German with video lectures, but none have been found, yet. I have thought about changing the language on my Windows install, as well. I have had to deal with that before, but it was the "Queen's English" and associated keyboards. Reading online newspapers is probably a good step, as well, as it is current language.

MickQ

And listening to internet radio.