Is the NOC the only way to really get into Network Engineering?

Jackace

In my last post I asked which markets are good for entry level networking and it seemed like everyone agreed that starting in the NOC is the best route. I don't really have a problem with this, but where I live now there aren't many SPs so I almost never see NOC positions posted. The only networking posts I see around here are full network admin/engineering jobs. There doesn't seem to be anything in between desktop support and Network Engineering. My own company has 150+ IT people and we go from desktop support right to level 2 Network Engineer. I'm wondering if anyone here has made it to network engineer and done it without going through the NOC? If so what was your path?

NetworkVeteran

Jackace wrote: »

If so what was your path?

Like most of my colleagues, I obtained a solid degree, and so started with an engineering title and pay. That's another route you might consider. More work but higher rewards.

Roguetadhg

What degree did you have, NetworkVeteran?

swild

Hmm, I guess I'm confused. What networking jobs are there that are not done in a Network Operations Center?

Roguetadhg

My boss (1 of them) deals with the network, only. We're not in a NOC of any sort.

shodown

Move to a city where NOC jobs are plentiful. What I did a few years ago and I don't regret the decision one bit. The next step if moving is not a option is to try to find a help desk role that covers some telecom type duties where you can possibly use that to get into a jr network engineer positon.

Jackace

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Like most of my colleagues, I obtained a solid degree, and so started with an engineering title and pay. That's another route you might consider. More work but higher rewards.

I have a degree in Information Technology Management: Network Administration, I have a CCNA, and I have my CCNA Security exam scheduled for the 4th. I have done just about everything I can do as far as learning on my own. I'm at that point where I need experience to go any farther, but all the Network Engineering jobs require previous experience doing the job. I currently work in a small data center where I do a combination of Help Desk, Desktop Support, Network Support(basic levels) and Junior Sys Admin work. It pays well, but I want to move into networking and it doesn't seem to be possible without the experience.

Jackace

shodown wrote: »

Move to a city where NOC jobs are plentiful. What I did a few years ago and I don't regret the decision one bit. The next step if moving is not a option is to try to find a help desk role that covers some telecom type duties where you can possibly use that to get into a jr network engineer positon.

If I can't find anything in my area by first part of next year this is the plan. Right now I can't move because of finances, but by January I should have that all taken care of.

shodown

Jackace wrote: »

If I can't find anything in my area by first part of next year this is the plan. Right now I can't move because of finances, but by January I should have that all taken care of.

You have a plan together that is a great start.

Jackace

shodown wrote: »

You have a plan together that is a great start.

I have a plan, but ideally I would not have to move and could find something here. I have family friends, etc all in this area so I'm giving it some time before I up and bail.

swild

I have 5 and a half years of general IT experience. I have done basicly zero networking in any of my roles, but studied on my own and got my CCNA and CCNA:Sec. I was just hired as a Network Analyst on a contract (aka temp). There are not a whole lot of IT jobs in my area, just a couple of big, local employers. If you want to live in Little Rock, AR, and have CCNA level knowledge, with or without a cert, I can get you job immeadiately. They are looking for 4 more people doing the same thing.

Jackace

swild wrote: »

There are not a whole lot of IT jobs in my area, just a couple of big, local employers.

It's the same in my area.

shodown

Jackace wrote: »

I have a plan, but ideally I would not have to move and could find something here. I have family friends, etc all in this area so I'm giving it some time before I up and bail.

Thats ideally, but we live in reality and if your city or state didn't put in the things in place to have business come there, then you have to go where they did. Its pretty much that simple.

NetworkVeteran

Jackace wrote: »

I have a degree in Information Technology Management: Network Administration, I have a CCNA, and I have my CCNA Security exam scheduled for the 4th. I have done just about everything I can do as far as learning on my own.

That's not bad, although there is room for improvement on the degree and certifications. You know, the whole (degree < BS degree < CS/EE) and there are other CCNA specializations.

It's great you're taking another test to improve your portfolio.

I'm at that point where I need experience to go any farther, but all the Network Engineering jobs require previous experience doing the job.

Perhaps in your area? I already commented how few openings your area has compared to Denver or other major cities. In general, that notion is silly, since everyone starts in the networking field without experience, and I was just interviewing for an entry-level position which had no experience requirements, provided the candidate had a CS/EE degree (a typical waiver).

Since experience is the biggest gap and would prefer not to move, you might consider volunteering. There are many worthy organizations that could use a helping hand.

Roguetadhg

How does one show they're serious about a volunteer? I've had to face "Can't because of liabilities". Some volunteering still want experience.

Jackace

Roguetadhg wrote: »

How does one show they're serious about a volunteer? I've had to face "Can't because of liabilities". Some volunteering still want experience.

I tried to volunteer at my current employer, at a local non-profit, and I even posted a few ads on craigslist. They all said no. Lack of experience, labor laws, and no responses from the ads were the reasons.

Jackace

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Perhaps in your area? I already commented how few openings your area has compared to Denver or other major cities. In general, that notion is silly, since everyone starts in the networking field without experience, and I was just interviewing for an entry-level position which had no experience requirements, provided the candidate had a CS/EE degree (a typical waiver).

I know there are not a lot of openings in my area. I have been looking in other areas though and all the job postings except the NOC positions require experience. Even the Junior Network Engineer jobs I found require 5 years experience.

dead_p00l

There's always the ground up approach together with a bit of luck. I started out 15 years ago doing PC repair work and was the only person with that company willing to learn and work on a network of any kind. A lot of self study and motivation(although i lack the certifications) later and several companies later and I'm the senior network engineer for my region with a nationwide company. Most people don't want to take the long road but it is possible. I have no degrees and no certifications, just years of hard work, study and dedication.

JDMurray

It takes a large company to segregate network people into separate design, implementation, and operations (break/fix) groups. Companies too small to have an actual NOC will ask their senior networking people to wear all three hats, so it's harder to get a position if the smaller company isn't growing. Best to get on with a larger company in a side role, such as help desk or end-user services, and transition into network services as the openings become available, and you have demonstrated your education (degrees), certs, and skills to the hiring managers and your co-workers at the company.

Jackace

JDMurray wrote: »

It takes a large company to segregate network people into separate design, implementation, and operations (break/fix) groups. Companies too small to have an actual NOC will ask their senior networking people to wear all three hats, so it's harder to get a position if the smaller company isn't growing. Best to get on with a larger company in a side role, such as help desk or end-user services, and transition into network services as the openings become available, and you have demonstrated your education (degrees), certs, and skills to the hiring managers and your co-workers at the company.

This was my path once I got out of college, but that is not how things have worked out. The transition isn't happening and probably never will. As NetworkVeteran pointed out there aren't main openings in my area, and the few that do come up are filled with people who already have experience. My current company is doing this very thing and so are the other larger companies in the valley.

NetworkVeteran

That particular objection ("Can't because of liabilities" / "labor laws") can be overcome by charging a nominal rate, say minimum wage, or an even smaller per-job fee.

Roguetadhg wrote: »

How does one show they're serious about a volunteer?

A fair question.

First, there are elementary, middle, and high schools that would love to have someone knowledgeable about networking teach an afterschool program. For most schools, you will need to have a clean criminal background and up-to-date vaccinations. Will this be as impressive as prior network engineering work? No. Will it give you something? Yes. Also, ask yourself what kinds of parents would have kids in such a class? Don't underestimate contacts.

Second, start your own side business for home / small business network design and repair. Get a website--either buy a template or hire someone so it doesn't look like crap. Make business cards and hand them out to everyone you know and at every place you know. $34.95/visit should be cheap enough to entice people without looking too fishy. Create and respond to Craigslist ads.

Third, as you do more labbing, create a book of topologies (one per page) that you understand well and can show-off in an interview. This is not as impressive as work experience, but will put you ahead of other candidates, if you can get into an actual interview.

These all assume you're willing to do some legwork but would prefer not to move.

These ideas are not from experience so apply your best judgement.

mguy

I'm job searching at the moment. I get the impression that yes, yes NOC is the most probable way into breaking into the networking field.

If you're like me searching for entry positions you may have noticed the following classifications
1.) Junior Engineer
2.) NOC with a weird shift
3.) Helpdesk

I think Junior engineer for me would be out of the question. I don't really want to do help desk although I will consider it as backup. This leaves NOC positions. For NOC positions they usually have shifts with the grave yard as being the least desirable.

Based from what I read in the day of the life of NOC thread (somewhere in this forum), this position involves somewhat of a networking role. A year in this would be golden, and increases P(obtaining core networking job).

pm me for job search buddy

higherho

Another way would be If your in hybrid position and then branch from their. I think a great network engineer will not only master the art of networking but know what the devices that connect to his network are so he / she can make a make proper design.

I was previously a System admin for a small group of people (50 ppl with a backend of 30 servers and Cisco networking equipment). I decided to follow the path of networking more so than servers and in that hybrid position I've done a lot of networking in that role so I explained that on my resume to the fullest. Yes it would have been easier to get into a network role right out of college and grow that way but I went the round about way.

Now I'm in a Networking position with a main focus on Phones (VOIP / PBX) and do design work / support for our offices. So now all thats left is the certs. For me it went like this;

Help Desk (5 months - same company ) > Jr Sys Admin (5 months - same company) > Mid / Senior Hybrid SA (1.3 years - same company) > Current position (New company)

If you can absorb information quickly and know the right people your career can prosper fast.

Jackace

higherho wrote: »

If you can get into a hybrid position and then branch from their. I think a great network engineer will not only master the art of networking but know what the devices that connect to his network to make a proper design.

I was previously a System admin for a small group of people (50 ppl with a backend of 30 servers and Cisco networking equipment). I decided to follow the path of networking more so than servers and in that hybrid position I've done a lot of networking in that role so I explained that on my resume to the fullest. Yes it would have been easier to get into a network role right out of college and grow that way but I went the round about way.

Now I'm in a Networking position with a main focus on Phones (VOIP / PBX) and do design work / support for our offices. So now all thats left is the certs. For me it went like this;

Help Desk (5 months - same company ) > Jr Sys Admin (5 months - same company) > Mid / Senior Hybrid SA (1.3 years - same company) > Current position (New company)

If you can absorb information quickly and know the right people your career can prosper fast.

I'm in a hybrid role right now, but it's making the move from that role to networking that is proving tough/impossible. I have been in this hybrid role now 2 years and it is rather boring and repetitive. I have started looking for a new opportunity, but no actual work experience designing and configuring networks is the stumbling block.

higherho

Jackace wrote: »

I'm in a hybrid role right now, but it's making the move from that role to networking that is proving tough/impossible. I have been in this hybrid role now 2 years and it is rather boring and repetitive. I have started looking for a new opportunity, but no actual work experience designing and configuring networks is the stumbling block.

Yea that can be a problem. What do you do network related in your current Hybrid role? If you don't do much then I would study for certs and do side work.

Jackace

higherho wrote: »

Yea that can be a problem. What do you do network related in your current Hybrid role? If you don't do much then I would study for certs and do side work.

We only get to touch the very basic stuff when it comes to networking. I have been studying for certs, but I can't find any kind of side work or volunteer opportunity. I offered my services to multiple places and they all turned me down.

higherho

Jackace wrote: »

We only get to touch the very basic stuff when it comes to networking. I have been studying for certs, but I can't find any kind of side work or volunteer opportunity. I offered my services to multiple places and they all turned me down.

So I'm guessing port resets (unless you use 802.1x) / IOS Updates? Maybe you can ask or befriend a member of the networking team but if that option is not available to you then I would just get that CCNA and keep growing. Do you have any small businesses in the area were you live? Like 5 / 10 people maybe 20? I helped a few people setup some basic networking stuff like that in the past.

Worse case scenario would be get the CCNA and look out of your area (30 to 50 miles out) and plan on moving. If you had a Government clearance and live in the Northern VA area I would forward your resume here because a lot of Jr Network Admin spots opened up.

Jackace

higherho wrote: »

So I'm guessing port resets (unless you use 802.1x) / IOS Updates? Maybe you can ask or be friend a member of the networking team but if that option is not available to you then I would just get that CCNA and keep growing. Do you have any small businesses in the area were you live? Like 5 / 10 people maybe 20? I helped a few people setup some basic networking stuff like that in the past.

Worse case would be get the CCNA and look out of your area (30 to 50 miles out) and plan on moving. If you had a Government clearance and live in the Northern VA area I would forward your resume here because a lot of Jr Network Admin spots opened up.

We don't even get to touch the network that much. We only get to look. I tried befriending a network engineer and he offered to help, but it got shot down by our bosses. I have already completed the CCNA. I finished it earlier this year. I'm taking the CCNA Security in a couple weeks.

The problem with looking elsewhere is I live in Boise, Idaho. The nearest place with any kind of networking jobs is Salt Lake City and it's 350 miles away.

higherho

Jackace wrote: »

We don't even get to touch the network that much. We only get to look. I tried befriending a network engineer and he offered to help, but it got shot down by our bosses. I have already completed the CCNA. I finished it earlier this year. I'm taking the CCNA Security in a couple weeks.

The problem with looking elsewhere is I live in Boise, Idaho. The nearest place with any kind of networking jobs is Salt Lake City and it's 350 miles away.

I would start kissing some serious A@# (not literally of course haha) with the current networking team to get in! If you keep showing interest sooner or later they will let you in. the CCNA and soon CCNA security will help greatly. They would be foolish to let a valuable employee go.

NetworkVeteran

Jackace wrote: »

We don't even get to touch the network that much. We only get to look.

I've already mentioned several ways to stand out in your area.. I'm quite good at standing out.. but this is yet another one. You say you get to look at the network. That is plenty to be able to understand and map your network and its protocols in detail.. also to troubleshoot its problems. Make the most of what you have. Some aspiring network professionals would probably be excited just to be able to login to those real routers and issue show commands.

[On a sidenote, see if you can get remote or wireless access. If so, the number of hours you are allowed in the building would not be a factor for learning networking.]

Roguetadhg

I know enough to be dangerous, not enough to help :P

Fair enough. I'll get my Other ccna/da certs! Muhaha!