Certification For Sport

We all know certifications don't equal or bestow knowledge. We can get smart/more advanced on our own, without taking a test. So there has to be other motivations. Knowledge Verification. Career advancement. Job Requirement. Challenge. Marketability. Prestige. Ego. Peer Pressure. Love of Acronyms...etc.

For anyone: At what point did you/will you pass the point of certifications really helping your career?

Since I am functioning in a management/assessment role, I'll knock out the CISA in June. After the Master's degree is wrapped up in the fall, I can't see how another certification would be needed in the foreseeable future.

In the DC area (government sector), virtually every mid and senior level InfoSec person has a plethora of alphabet soup certification acronyms on their resume. Basically it comes down to networking (who you know), interviewing, and past experience/references. After a while, a senior professional collecting certifications is akin to buying a porsche and expensive jewelry just to show off how rich you are. I have seen idiots with 10 different certifications in their e-mail signatures. This can work against people.

If you are staying current on your own (reading blogs, performing at work, training, YouTube, books, conferences, tinkering with equipment), when is enough enough with certifications in your opinion?

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Iristheangel

Certifications might not bestow knowledge but the material that you study on the way there may.

It really depends on the career path and part of IT you're getting into. For me, personally, I think I wouldn't have anywhere further to go in the certification world if I had a CCIE R&S, CCIE Security and CCDE. I wouldn't have any interest in dumping $10K into an architect certification that no on has heard of and I don't think any other certifications would help my career at that point. I like studying but it'll be nice to look over what I have and say "That's it. I've done good and now I'm taking a rest"

webgeek

CISSP (done) + CCIE + CISA/CISM would be the top of the list and after that probably no more just maintaining them. Like Iris said CCAr is a waste of $$$ btw we are still waiting on that baby rack pic

YuckTheFankees

I'm still early in my IT career but once I get my masters + CISSP/CISA(possibly CISM at some point)/PMP(maybe)...I do not see my self getting anymore certifications unless some hot technology came out or I needed to for work.

dave330i

LarryDaMan wrote: »

If you are staying current on your own (reading blogs, performing at work, training, YouTube, books, conferences, tinkering with equipment), when is enough enough with certifications in your opinion?

When I get tired of studying for them.

charlemagne

LarryDaMan wrote: »

We all know certifications don't equal or bestow knowledge. We can get smart/more advanced on our own, without taking a test. So there has to be other motivations. Knowledge Verification. Career advancement. Job Requirement. Challenge. Marketability. Prestige. Ego. Peer Pressure. Love of Acronyms...etc.

For anyone: At what point did you/will you pass the point of certifications really helping your career?

Since I am functioning in a management/assessment role, I'll knock out the CISA in June. After the Master's degree is wrapped up in the fall, I can't see how another certification would be needed in the foreseeable future.

In the DC area (government sector), virtually every mid and senior level InfoSec person has a plethora of alphabet soup certification acronyms on their resume. Basically it comes down to networking (who you know), interviewing, and past experience/references. After a while, a senior professional collecting certifications is akin to buying a porsche and expensive jewelry just to show off how rich you are. I have seen idiots with 10 different certifications in their e-mail signatures. This can work against people.

If you are staying current on your own (reading blogs, performing at work, training, YouTube, books, conferences, tinkering with equipment), when is enough enough with certifications in your opinion?

I would challenge your first sentence on the basis of the various epistemological definitions of "knowledge." Oh, wait...I know, this isn't a forum for philosophy so I will not venture there. I think you are asking a rhetorical question. You already answered it and you know everyone will have different views. Yet, I agree you're correct in that it's who you know more than what you know and, yes, networking amongst people in your field is probably why the "most qualified" aren't always the one getting a particular job.

Yet, I think there is something to this old concept of "free will" and if someone wants to take a test for whatever reason, who cares if it doesn't impact your life? "Enough is enough" when a person chooses, of their own volition, to not take an exam. Perhaps, it shouldn't matter so much "why" someone takes an exam. I don't list mine. But, if I want to take one, then I will and don't care what anyone thinks. Then again, few would know. Oh, you forgot to delete those blasted acronyms in your profile.

Why do you list them? There must be a reason. Just curious.

MrAgent

After CEH, the only ones ill be doing are the ones to keep my MCSEs current when they expire in 3 years. I had thought about doing VCAP, and possibly MCM... but I dont think they will be needed. After finishing my masters... I think ill be heading toward the management side of things.

LarryDaMan

charlemagne wrote: »

I would challenge your first sentence on the basis of the various epistemological definitions of "knowledge." Oh, wait...I know, this isn't a forum for philosophy so I will not venture there. I think you are asking a rhetorical question. You already answered it and you know everyone will have different views. Yet, I agree you're correct in that it's who you know more than what you know and, yes, networking amongst people in your field is probably why the "most qualified" aren't always the one getting a particular job.

Yet, I think there is something to this old concept of "free will" and if someone wants to take a test for whatever reason, who cares if it doesn't impact your life? "Enough is enough" when a person chooses, of their own volition, to not take an exam. Perhaps, it shouldn't matter so much "why" someone takes an exam. I don't list mine. But, if I want to take one, then I will and don't care what anyone thinks. Then again, few would know. Oh, you forgot to delete those blasted acronyms in your profile.

Why do you list them? There must be a reason. Just curious.

For one, this site is called TechExams, so listing them in my profile here is a bit different than on an e-mail signature or even a resume. Good points though, and I agree that one should not have to explain themselves for taking a certification. It was merely a discussion point. As I get older and more cynical towards these capitalistic money grubbing certifying organizations, I tend to look at things from a cost/benefit analysis point of view and from a "How will this help me?" perspective. I love to learn and I do that every day without having to study for a certification. I figured it would be interesting to sample the motives and motivations of others regarding this topic.

UnixGuy

I think when you have a proven track record of verifiable experience, certifications will matter less. However, difficult certifications and LAB based certs (CCIE, OSCP, OSCE, ,...etc) will always carry weight. Passing one of these cert every year or so is worth it.

the_hutch

Now that I have CISSP, I have little interest in going for certs for the sole purpose of resume points (which is exactly what CISSP was for me). Now its all about hands on challenges. I have no interest in learning something unless its applied knowledge and skills. Which is why I am loving this OSCP course right now

charlemagne

LarryDaMan wrote: »

For one, this site is called TechExams, so listing them in my profile here is a bit different than on an e-mail signature or even a resume. Good points though, and I agree that one should not have to explain themselves for taking a certification. It was merely a discussion point. As I get older and more cynical towards these capitalistic money grubbing certifying organizations, I tend to look at things from a cost/benefit analysis point of view and from a "How will this help me?" perspective. I love to learn and I do that every day without having to study for a certification. I figured it would be interesting to sample the motives and motivations of others regarding this topic.

I agree. Listing certs here is much different than an Email signature. Actually, I think it's a good question and thought provoking. I am a firm believer in the concept of "lifelong learning." The various certification organizations are not inexpensive, that is for sure. Yet, if people chose not to pay for an exam, then the organization would lose its value rather quickly. They provide a service/product and it is up to the individual to pay for an exam. This is a personal choice and has little to do with capitalism. Are the orgs greedy or is it, fundamentally, a person's choice since no one is forced to take or pay for any exam.
Certs have only as much value as society places in any one or group of them. The certification bodies do not force people to do anything. People come to them, seeking something, and choose to pay (or not). IT certs are at least, usually, based upon choice (not always if you need one for a job). We must remember, always, the importance of personal responsibility and choice. It is easy to perceive cert bodies as "bad" or "greedy." Logically, though, capitalism has little to do with the choice an individual makes as to whether or not to pay for an exam. Besides, these type of certifications exist in nations that are far from adhering to capitalism.

"How will this help me" will differ from person to person. I do not link my love of learning with paying for an exam. Two different things, as I perceive it. Interesting question. To feel cynical is, again, a choice. If you choose to perceive certifying orgs as "capitalistic money grubbing" entities, then it is not the organization forcing you to "feel" a particular way. You actually choose to do so.

This is my perspective. Oh, and I also find what motivates us to choose certain things quite interesting.

N2IT

I'm just about finished. Most of mine no longer help me in the field I am in.

I am focused on finishing my MBA and grabbing a MS SQL certification. That just about does it.

Just for the record I only list 3 certs on my resume.

ITIL, PMI, & MOS

Sometimes I will list the MS project certification, but I am no longer interested in PM work, way more into data analysis and architecture.

kiki162

charlemagne wrote: »

I am a firm believer in the concept of "lifelong learning."

Yeah me too.

I do it for 2 reasons. One to NOT stay bored, and two to keep my skills up to date. I've found that the more I slack off education wise in my life, the more problems arise from NOT doing anything to keep pushing forward. I'd like to think in a perfect world if you get additional certs, then you would get a bonus or pay raise...naaa dont think so. I just like the motivation aspect of it

Another thing I've found with jobs positions out there..that the more you spread your skills sets out the more attractive you become to employers. Job positions these days require a host of skills from Windows Server, to programming, to a little bit of Cisco networking experience. Honestly, at this I'm looking to do it more for me, than to say get another job. It's better to be pre-prepared then "caught with your pants down"...ya know?

SteveO86

Tough question, I'd say it really depends on your motivation to obtain certifications. I've got various certs a around 6-7 years experience now so it the problem with that is not many certs really add value for me (Exception: CCIE) however there are a bunch of certs I would love to get because they would be easy for me to obtain (CWNA/SCP/CCNP:S) I just don't have the time. Actually that is a poor excuse I have the time I just spend that time on my CCIE

If my employer wants to see me with the certification that's one thing, if I want it for my ego or self satisfaction that's another thing.

I just like to stay up to date and have the answers

charlemagne

kiki162 wrote: »

Yeah me too.

I do it for 2 reasons. One to NOT stay bored, and two to keep my skills up to date. I've found that the more I slack off education wise in my life, the more problems arise from NOT doing anything to keep pushing forward. I'd like to think in a perfect world if you get additional certs, then you would get a bonus or pay raise...naaa dont think so. I just like the motivation aspect of it

Another thing I've found with jobs positions out there..that the more you spread your skills sets out the more attractive you become to employers. Job positions these days require a host of skills from Windows Server, to programming, to a little bit of Cisco networking experience. Honestly, at this I'm looking to do it more for me, than to say get another job. It's better to be pre-prepared then "caught with your pants down"...ya know?

I agree with you. I have always been curious about different things so, from an early age, I was a bookworm.

With college came the discipline to admit and realize what I don't know and just keep up with material in my "first" career. I'm busy now with family, work, and just life. Eh, I really enjoy just learning new subjects. With certs...aside from the thread starter question, they are required or needed if, for example, you transitioning from a non-IT field to an IT field. Here, we're talking about IT certs but "certification" is part of the working world in IT or non-IT. Want to be a teacher, then you have to be certified. I figure, if someone wants to pay for an exam, and it means something to them, deep down...in a manner that perhaps no one else could truly comprehend...if it means some "thing" then the question isn't "why" but "why not?"
Anyway, with certs such as CompTIA or Microsoft, etc... you will not break any "rules" or "laws" by not listing certain ones if you know it might hurt your chances. If someone wants one, then go for it....no one has to know about it.

About7Narwhal

Often times, I find myself working towards a certification because it gives me a great study plan. The vendor of this technology has decided knowing this material is worth recognition and having studied the material and passed a standard exam (by standard I imply a test that everyone at the level of cert has taken: this could be a lab/sim, presentation, or regular computer exam depending on the cert) I am now a recognized "professional" in the eyes of the vendor and employers.

That said, I think most of us acknowledge that certs do not get you jobs - they get you interviews. At the end of the day, the letters I post on my resume mean nothing if I cannot back them up. This is how I founded my IT studies, based on that thought. I earn certifications to measure my own personal progress towards my end goal: learn something new.

I gain certifications as a personal verification that I have learned the material I have set out to study. The certification rewarded to me only serves as proof to me that I accomplished the task of learning the material I wanted to. If it provides some benefit in my career, great! But if I get to a point where the certifications have no job based value, I would simply stop listing them on a resume and continue to earn them for my own satisfaction.

TL;DR:

dave330i wrote: »

When I get tired of studying for them.

charlemagne

LarryDaMan wrote: »

For one, this site is called TechExams, so listing them in my profile here is a bit different than on an e-mail signature or even a resume. Good points though, and I agree that one should not have to explain themselves for taking a certification. It was merely a discussion point. As I get older and more cynical towards these capitalistic money grubbing certifying organizations, I tend to look at things from a cost/benefit analysis point of view and from a "How will this help me?" perspective. I love to learn and I do that every day without having to study for a certification. I figured it would be interesting to sample the motives and motivations of others regarding this topic.

Just wondering: Now that you have read several replies to your original question (good one, by the way) and have a sample to use as a baseline, what are your thoughts to the several replies to your question? How do you interpret the motives, thus far?

LarryDaMan

charlemagne wrote: »

Just wondering: Now that you have read several replies to your original question (good one, by the way) and have a sample to use as a baseline, what are your thoughts to the several replies to your question? How do you interpret the motives, thus far?

There are unique individuals here from a wide spectrum of experience within different subsets of IT, so varied answers could be expected. This whole topic started as an in-person conversation with colleagues. I recently moved into a management position as a security analyst, so in my situation, the CISA will add credibility and panache (real or perceived) to the assessment work. So I take the CISA in June. What next?

For me and my similarly positioned colleagues with families and busy schedules at work, the certifications must add something other than acronyms. Ask not what you can do for the certification, but what the certification can do for you. This is only my opinion, nothing wrong with collecting certifications, using them as a way to learn something, or for anything else.

Lastly, I stand by the fact that many certifying organizations are money grubbing capitalistic entities. Just because something is fair and allowable, doesn't mean it can't suck. In many cases, certifications are entry barriers. If people need Security+ (for example) for a promotion or entry into a field, then CompTIA holds a monopolistic stranglehold on a captive audience. You can romance about free will and choice all you want, but for these people, the choice is to take Security+ or to kick rocks and alter their career path.

I get that we can continue to go back and forth personally on this thread in an enjoyable attempt to outwit or out point each other (I'll win

), but if that is what it morphs into, lets take it to PM.

Mrock4

I don't particularly like taking certification exams, but I do take them for a lot of reasons. That being said, I don't see myself ever completely stopping taking certifications. This industry changes so fast, and my clients (for better or worse) really value certifications, so if I want to keep pace with my competitors, I will have to get certified on a regular basis. That being said, I'm not saying I'll always take exams multiple times per year- but I imagine I'll be looking at one cert a year in "maintenance" mode for the next several years.

The only caveat here is I'm not quite sure what I want to be when I grow up yet, so once I decide, I might end up in a position where certs just don't make sense. If I do, that's OK, because I'm sure I'll have some other things to work in order to stay current (traditional education, seminars, etc). Just my $.02.

N2IT

Forgive me for sounding anti certification, am I not. But it almost feels like a pit of dispair. You spend 3 months studying for a real professional certification and it feels like it nothing afterwards and you are moving onto the next certification.

Maybe it's a psychological thing I am not sure, but doing cert after cert doesn't bring my happiness it brings me debt.

With that said if you have a strategy and keep your scope narrow certifications can be a great tool to leverage when applying for positions.

Network engineer comes to mind. It's obvious but the NA, NP, IE etc makes a lot of sense. But getting a smorgasbord of certifications with no direction is really lame IMO, and very costly.

I've seen many veterans on here and off of here talk about regretting spending the money on all the CompTIA certs or on other certifications that didn't directly align with their path. Of course baseline thinking comes into play so you will sometimes get certs that no longer add value because of your direction but that should of be due to the fact your path changed after the fact.

I try to be cost aware and keep that in mind when recommending certifications. I always error on the side of lower middle class than upper middle class.

If you make 100,000+ with commissions and you like certs do them. I just think the majority of the people on this board are looking to get into IT or transition into other roles. With that mind set 1 well placed aligned certification has a lot more power than a bunch of crap throw at the wall.

JMHO

YFZblu

N2IT wrote: »

I've seen many veterans on here and off of here talk about regretting spending the money on all the CompTIA certs or on other certifications that didn't directly align with their path.

I'm quite sure the people you're referring to here would disagree with me; however I think once one has 'made it' in the industry and sticks their nose up at those CompTIA's of the past it is a mistake to tell up-and-comers to avoid them. At one point in the past even the now grizzled network engineer thought he/she needed the A+ certification to land a job, or to get a better one.

I think we all instinctively do what we feel is necessary to progress, and once we do, we must credit all parts of the process with our success, no matter how trivial it seems in hindsight. Now, I'm not advocating the shotgun approach to certification. I think, as you said, it is important to have a goal and make calculated and focused choices to achieve that goal. But the CompTIA's really cover general computing theory and I wouldn't say they'd be an unnecessary distraction to anyone just starting out.

.02

twodogs62

I see certifications as a great way to show professional growth.
So either updating/renewing or gaining new certification either each year or every two or three years is a good thing I show at my annual review each year.
So, if you work where the boss likes to see professional growth then use certifications.
If you are getting a college degree then show that as professional growth.
Also you never know when job or boss change occurs.
Having the education can be a plus.
The learning never stops.
Don't stagnate.

UnixGuy

N2IT wrote: »

.... it brings me debt.

..., and very costly.

...

Good points. In my case my (now previous) employer paid for ALL my certifications and regarded them well in the annual reviews because they use our CVs to win tenders/proposal so the more certified engineers in a certain technologies the better. It's like that for vendor business partners (Cisco, MS, IBM, Oracle..etc)

Having said that, I think I might invest in a higher level cert (or two) sometime in the future.

tbgree00

I like being the work know it all. I think it annoys my fellow techs but they never complain when their new A/V firewall rule is blocking the Remote Desktop app and i can rattle off a port number to unblock or they need WSUS help and I'm there with the answer. The VCP has also helped out getting discounts and jobs.

When I started it was because I felt insecure over not having a tech degree. Then I got addicted to the agony of defeat and the thrill of victory. Now I want to keep learning. I've slowed down a lot so that I can do practical stuff (deploy XenDesktop, set up SRM and KSV) but am getting back on the MS horse. Essentially I'm in it until I kill over, I don't have anywhere else to go that will help my current career, and I have everything I need to get an interview for my next career.

paul78

I think that I'm one of the few people on this forum that do certifications for sport so I thought that I would chime in.

There is definitely value in sitting for a certification regardless of whether there is a directly correlation to your career path. I am a strong believer that if you have a passion for IT, and you want to have an IT career - regardless of level - continued education and self-discovery is required. If certifications is your way of continued exploration - then why not?

If you do better with reading blogs, watching youtube videos, going to conferences, then that's fine too.

For me - I tend to be very interested in lots of different IT related topics at the same time, so a certification track is a great way to focus my energies and to actually have an end-goal - I.e. the exam.

Certifications have never played a part in my career - it's never been on my resume (only because I didn't have any until recently), it's not mentioned in interviews, and it's not in my job performance reviews, and my management do not know that I have any. But that doesn't mean that for me individually, I don't find them valuable.

The other thing that I should mention is that most of you know that I never completed my bachelor's. So for my own personal ego, completing that certification brings to me a private sense of accomplishment.

N2IT

@ YFZ

I don't want come across that I am bashing CompTIA certifications. I think they are a great way to get a taste of the game and in a certain technology. I don't believe in the "trifecta" theory (A, N, S+). I do however think they are a great way to get introduced into a certain area of knowledge. Example: If you are going to school for IT security picking up Security + is probably a good idea. If you want to fix PC's or be a desktop tech and transition into systems later A+ is a nice one. But this one size fits all approach is nothing short of crap. Each individual is their own person and will travel their own journey. Creating a template that all must follow is unwise approach.

Paul nothing wrong with sport and I understand the piece about a sense of accomplishment. I have a lame management degree from a state school. I was always insecure about that, all my friends did finance, accounting, electrical engineering, computer science, etc. I did BS in management lol. (This was the "easiest" of the business degrees).

So to a certain extent I went through what you went through. I decided to say the heck with it and get my MBA and be done with it.

NetworkVeteran

LarryDaMan wrote: »

We all know certifications don't equal or bestow knowledge.

They're correlated.

Typically, you need to learn the knowledge Kx to earn certificate Cx, and if you already know Kx it makes sense to get Cx.

For anyone: At what point did you/will you pass the point of certifications really helping your career?

When you change or plan to change to a career where certificates aren't relevant. Most certificates expire within a few years, so even if you earn a top-tier certification, you've got to keep studying to stay relevant, and keep passing tests to maintain those letters. I only have a dozen years of experience or so, so I'm far from being "over" certifications.

docrice

I only skimmed through this thread, but I'll add my two cents.

Attaining certifications provide solutions to different objectives in my career and personal goals.

Looks good on paper. If anything, at least there's something to fill the resume up with. In many cases, this can go against me rather than benefit. Anyone who has been reviewing resumes long enough will scrutinize someone who has way too many acronyms for their own good. When I'm looking over resumes, it makes me suspicious when a candidate is flashing / showing off too much to make up for other shortcomings which might become very apparent in an interview.
Renew existing certifications. For example, the CCNA is something I'd like to keep active since it's well-recognized and it doesn't look good to mention that it's "expired." It's a good resume / HR keyword match string, if anything.
Expand my horizons. Security subject areas, as an example, is a fast moving target. Taking the relevant courses and immersing myself further to pass the exam ideally helps me ingrain the material a little better with the hope that it sticks better by the time I get to actually applying it in the real-world. There's a lot of potential skill fade and I need to do what I can to retain the knowledge for as long as I can in order to live up to what the certification is implying to others. The training that comes before the exam is generally structured well enough to provide decent foundations and perspectives. In many ways this has worked better for me than the hunt-and-peck approach (reading papers, blogs, technical documentation, etc.) when I wanted to learn specific areas of something.

The third point has been the most crucial for me. At the current point in my career, any security organization worth their salt who wants to interview me should care less about what's after my name rather than what I know, what I can deliver, my attitude, and my aptitude in keeping up with the rapid-fire changes in the industry. For my last two positions which I interviewed for (and got hired into) the interviewers either didn't ask about my certifications or dismissed / downplayed their relevance, as I believe they should.

Having gone through enough security courses and their associated exams in the last several years, I've become aware of their limitations and what they really mean on paper. There are people who are well-certified and deliver little, and people who are limited in their paper certifications but produce a lot. And there's a lot of gray in between. Certifications can be good, but one must be careful in interpreting what they really mean for a given candidate.

But pursuing certs gives me a structured path to keep me engaged in a field which is easy to become overwhelmed in. While in some sense I've made a sport out of being a solid example of a paper tiger, overall I've still benefited and gained a broader / deeper insight into looking at various aspects of my job. For example, I can ask tougher questions when a vendor walks into my door and wants to sell me something. Being able to make an informed buying decision is crucial when you and your organization have to live with a product or service for several years at a time.

Certs might also compensate for my lack of degree. For some HR folks, it might not. If I ever go through WGU, I'm sure it can help offset the total requirement set for a degree. They might also help my ego, but I'm not the type to really display my credentials on the wall. Most of my certs (even my GIAC plaques) get tossed into a file drawer, never to see daylight again. But with my increasing list, I'm hoping that future employers can at least see that I'm motivated and passionate enough about information security that I'm worth considering to interview. I'm hoping that overall I have increased the odds in staying employed at the very least.

docrice

It just occurred to me that there's an additional benefit with having a large number of certs after your name. At some point in our career, we all encounter that person who likes to tout his certified-ness and apparent ability to do work better than others. The know-it-all. The guy with an ego. The one that's trying to be the alpha. We've all met him, I'm sure.

Whenever I get into a group discussion email thread with people like this and the inevitable, "It should be this way because I'm certified and I know what I'm talking about" statement comes through (even if it's merely implied via an email signature of impressive length), I have the option of pulling out my list if there's any question about who holds more professional certifications. And sometimes it might be that CISSP guy who thinks he's an elite-status VIP.

So in that sense, you can think of it as an office politics arms race - the "my-weapons-are-shinier-than-yours" deal. Sometimes this is useful when you have a reseller who wants to sell you something that you don't need and is hesitant on being questioned about it.

charlemagne

LarryDaMan wrote: »

There are unique individuals here from a wide spectrum of experience within different subsets of IT, so varied answers could be expected. This whole topic started as an in-person conversation with colleagues. I recently moved into a management position as a security analyst, so in my situation, the CISA will add credibility and panache (real or perceived) to the assessment work. So I take the CISA in June. What next?

For me and my similarly positioned colleagues with families and busy schedules at work, the certifications must add something other than acronyms. Ask not what you can do for the certification, but what the certification can do for you. This is only my opinion, nothing wrong with collecting certifications, using them as a way to learn something, or for anything else.

Lastly, I stand by the fact that many certifying organizations are money grubbing capitalistic entities. Just because something is fair and allowable, doesn't mean it can't suck. In many cases, certifications are entry barriers. If people need Security+ (for example) for a promotion or entry into a field, then CompTIA holds a monopolistic stranglehold on a captive audience. You can romance about free will and choice all you want, but for these people, the choice is to take Security+ or to kick rocks and alter their career path.

I get that we can continue to go back and forth personally on this thread in an enjoyable attempt to outwit or out point each other (I'll win ), but if that is what it morphs into, lets take it to PM.

I appreciate your post. Actually, I would very much like to continue this discussion (via private messages) in more detail. First, I don't have any intention of "proving" anything. I taught philosophy for a while (mostly logic, critical reasoning, etc, ethics, other stuff) and simply enjoy the exchange of ideas. It isn't about scoring points. It's just about learning as I'm sure you know many things I don't and vice versa.
I do believe in any discussion one should try to support any premise (i.e. "certification org's are money grubbing capitalistic entities." This is your premise that you think is true) with some type of evidence.
I would hope you can let me know how an economic model/system (capitalism) has anything to do with certification bodies? There exists "money grubbing" entities in communist and socialist nations. Since you use the term, I just wonder why and what logic you can inform me of that connects it with a certification body of any sort?
And, the concept of free will isn't a "romance." It is something quite real and I do say that if I (in a PM) state something as a "fact" then I will support it with evidence (not opinion or some quote from an Op-Ed piece) and not base it on emotionally charged statements such as your use of "capitalistic"....it's used out of context.
I will happily explain why "free will" is not being use by me as a way to get around providing concrete evidence for anything I claim or assert. Please, though, clarify your use of "capitalism" because it has a specific context and meaning so rather than me attempting to play mental "connect the dots" to understand your use of it, just tell me.

Look forward to it.

paul78

@docrice - I was a little surprised by your post. I thought it was you that agrred a while back that certifications tend not to hold much value in security space. I dont usually run into security professionals that use thwir certifications as evidence of accomplishments. I am guessing that you probably have the skills to pick the posers from the real deal.

@nt2it - I hear what you are saying about Comptia but if someone is just starting one in their career, I do appreprite the effort.

@charlemagne and @op - great conversation. I hope to choose to share some of your thoughts further in the public forum.